hipsterpants
Member
She was pretty much the only person that openly said that all the warring and fighting was stupid and a waste of life. Given that the WWs about to fuck up a depleted Westeros I'd say she was pretty smart in that regard.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO
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Damerman
Member
regardless of whether this is a joke post or not, i agree with all my heart.(lol at Rickon)
also, count me as one of the rabid sansa fans. though arya is my number one when all starks are accounted for.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
OMG it does! XD
badcrumble
Member
This is just speculation, but I wonder if we're eventually going to find out that there was actually good reason for Mad King Aerys's actions. GRRM likes to subvert the way that history has previously been presented; he's already done that a bit with the part where Jaime assassinated Aerys, but I'd love to find out that on some level Aerys was correct to want to burn KL, or else that he was being driven deliberately mad (maybe by Bloodraven).
So...making stupid decisions that drive events toward her death?
I'm hoping she'll be a power player like Littlefinger, maybe taking over his shit.
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah, in regards to Robb's war councils, she was a pretty good advisor.
She took Tyrion Lannister in the belief that he attempted to have her son murdered (and this was bolstered by the misinformation Littlefinger gave her) - it was the emotions of a mother that overcome her there. And she only let him go because he earned his freedom according to the law.
As for Jaime, it was an irrational mistake, but an understandable one. That was when Tyrion as acting Hand arranged for the exchange between Jaime and the Stark girls; and of course unbeknownst to Catelyn, they didn't really have Arya.
She took Tyrion Lannister in the belief that he attempted to have her son murdered (and this was bolstered by the misinformation Littlefinger gave her) - it was the emotions of a mother that overcome her there. And she only let him go because he earned his freedom according to the law.
As for Jaime, it was an irrational mistake, but an understandable one. That was when Tyrion as acting Hand arranged for the exchange between Jaime and the Stark girls; and of course unbeknownst to Catelyn, they didn't really have Arya.
That would be an awesome twist to mindfuck the audience.
Here's the line.
"Ramsay will kill them all, of course. Thats for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though.
I can hear Michael McElhatton saying it.
Having the Heir to House Lannister and possibly most skilled swordsman in Westeros... even if Tyrion had Arya it's not a worth trade.
Red Arremer
Member
Actually, there's been some very hard implications that Aerys has had good reasons to be suspicious, but he was exaggerating that and became paranoid to the point of doing irrational shit.
During his reign, as it started to become apparent that he was no longer fit to rule, 2 factions started emerging, one led by Rhaegar, and one by Jon Arryn. It's even very likely that those two factions originally had coinciding goals (i.e. deposing Aerys; I don't think Jon Arryn's initial plan was to have Robert Baratheon take the throne, and Rhaegar just wanted to dethrone Aerys and succeed him).
During her visit of the crypts, Lady Dustin mentioned that Rickard Stark had "Southron ambitions". This all involved various characters that were involved during the War of the Ninepenny Kings (Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon and to a lesser extent, Tywin Lannister). If you look at various family trees, you will see that great lords usually marry within their own regions, mostly to bind their vassals tighter to their reign, and not have them rebel. However, the more recent marriage pacts all were across the borders.
The initial marriage pacts should've looked like this: Catelyn Tully marries Brandon Stark, Lysa Tully marries Jamie Lannister, Lyanna Stark marries Robert Baratheon, and Jon Arryn fosters Robert and Ned Stark at the Eyrie (fostering is about as strong as a marriage pact). Also noteworthy is that Elia Martell originally was supposed to marry a Hightower (who in turn were married to the Tyrells; Mace's wife is a Hightower), and there were plans by Joanna Lannister to marry Oberyn to Cersei, so the Reach and Dorne also seem to have been part of the original marriage lineup. But thanks to Tywin rejecting the Martells (due to Joanna's death) and the Martells rejecting the Hightowers, the Southern realms dropped out.
And then more stuff happened. Aerys rejected Tywin's proposal to wed Cersei and Rhaegar and instead married him to Elia, and named Jaime to the Kingsguard. That led the Lannisters to drop out of the proposed alliances. Then Aerys burnt Rickard and Brandon Stark, which forced Jon Arryn to marry Ned instead of Brandon to Catelyn Tully, and himself to Lysa Tully in order to get the Riverlands' support. Then the tourney at Harrenhal happened, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna cause of prophecy, and that was the opportunity the Stark-Baratheon-Arryn(-Tully) alliance was waiting for to rebel.
Obviously as shit hit the fan, Tywin loved the opportunity to get his own revenge for Aerys rejecting Cersei and making Jaime a Kingsguard by sacking King's Landing and having the woman he scorned Cersei over brutally murdered.
I never liked Catelyn but while she wasn't stupid she, like Ned Stark to an extent, acted too much on impulse and emotion. She just up and kidnaps Tyrion based on incomplete information completely oblivious to the consequences. She then release Jaimie based on her emotional impulses to save her children, again oblivious to the consequences.
Not a joke pose, I think the books pretty much support my observations.
Nah, I mean he was right to be paranoid but he was crazy. As Red Arremer points out it does seem that there was a very real conspiracy against Aerys, this is even further supported by "The World of Ice and Fire" book but Aerys was indeed pretty mad. I also think that it can pretty much be considered a fact that the Tourney of Harrenhall was a cover by Rhaegar to meet with a majority of the Lord's to plot against his father. Unfortunately, Varys, that sneaky fuck, ruined that plot.
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah, Rhaegar was plotting his own thing, but I haven't invested a lot of research into him, myself. But Aerys still was mad enough to have his own son and just about all great lords of Westeros plot his removal from the throne.
Robert really only took the Iron Throne by coincidence because of Rhaegar taking Lyanna, Jon Arryn's plan was just to depose of Aerys.
And since we only know Robert's perspective, it's also questionable whether Lyanna was actually kidnapped or not. It seems a lot more likely Rhaegar had her consent when he took her, as evidenced by Ned not having nearly as much of a strong reaction.
But Aerys putting wildfire all over King's Landing to burn the city to the ground? That was only him being crazy.
Robert really only took the Iron Throne by coincidence because of Rhaegar taking Lyanna, Jon Arryn's plan was just to depose of Aerys.
And since we only know Robert's perspective, it's also questionable whether Lyanna was actually kidnapped or not. It seems a lot more likely Rhaegar had her consent when he took her, as evidenced by Ned not having nearly as much of a strong reaction.
But Aerys putting wildfire all over King's Landing to burn the city to the ground? That was only him being crazy.
I don't think anyone here believes she was kidnapped against her will. I think most of us believe that she and Rhaegar went off together in secret and got married on the Isle of Faces, afterwards he probably sent her Dorne to keep her safe.
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah. 
That said, I'm still not subscribing to R+L=J. Especially with GRRM-genetics in place.
That said, I'm still not subscribing to R+L=J. Especially with GRRM-genetics in place.
generaldane
Banned
To the guy above with the different roles of the Stark kids I think Rikon may end up leading the wildlings since he's quite wild
himself and I am not even joking lol
himself and I am not even joking lol
badcrumble
Member
"Wildlings" may be sort of a useless term in the future, especially given that the Wall's gonna come down at some point (I'm thinking it'll happen at the end of TWOW).
The thing about Rickon is that he's too young to influence any events by himself unless we get a significant time skip. His importance is his use by others as a Stark and thus an heir to Winterfell, but he's not important in his own right like the rest of the Starks who are (or very well soon) will be able to play a part in the larger "Game."
Yeah, I think Melisandre is right when she thought to her self they are "a dead people" but don't realize it.
I don't think there's much more to it rather than what's on face value. Not everything has to have an "other side" to it. Sometimes it is just what it is. Generations of inbreeding and only having -one- mad king in the family is kinda surprising as it is. He was probably just you know... mentally ill.
Ha, no like half of the Targ Kings were mad.
I guess no one talks about those! Probably best forgotten like many of the Popes from the middle ages...
Steelyuhas
Member
Makes me curious if the original time jump plans being axed changed George's plan for Rickon.
Red Arremer
Member
What is even more surprising is that the actor has like, a fairly normal, even high-ish voice.
Dude must get super hoarse every day he's on set.
I guess no one talks about those! Probably best forgotten like many of the Popes from the middle ages...
You should read The World of Ice and Fire book which has descriptions of all the Targ King's reigns. One clear example would be Baelor the Blessed.
He's actually prettier than Tormund's daughters.
biosnake20
Member
His voice is quite different but no one's voice has surprised me more then Luciano from Boardwalk Empire.
Ganzlinger
Member
This is madness!
"God's Beard!"
Member
The best part about season 6 will be that nobody can complain about book comparisons.
elrechazado
Banned
Not really
bengraven
Member
I was reading this "toilet facts" book called The Bloody History of Britain. It covers mainly the wars and kings and conquests with some occasional facts thrown in and lots and lots of dad humor.
You can definitely see where George got his influences. Half of the British kings were mad...hell, 90% of them were either assholes or insane. And the shit they did to each other makes Jaime throwing Bran out the window look like Jaime inviting Bran over to play Xbox. Seriously, George was too kind to his people.
I think the five year plan is why Rickon is so young. He would be the same age as Arya in the beginning when the books were done. It would be a parallel.
Oh that motherfucker! I've been wanting a hot redhead all my life, but they all refused to be with me because THEY on the other hand, HATED fellow redheads and didn't want us to make ugly pale red haired kids.
You can definitely see where George got his influences. Half of the British kings were mad...hell, 90% of them were either assholes or insane. And the shit they did to each other makes Jaime throwing Bran out the window look like Jaime inviting Bran over to play Xbox. Seriously, George was too kind to his people.
I think the five year plan is why Rickon is so young. He would be the same age as Arya in the beginning when the books were done. It would be a parallel.
Oh that motherfucker! I've been wanting a hot redhead all my life, but they all refused to be with me because THEY on the other hand, HATED fellow redheads and didn't want us to make ugly pale red haired kids.
What the F***
Well, it depends on how we define "mad."
Maegor the Cruel. I don't think I really need to elaborate on him dude was named "the Cruel" after all and loved killing people.
Baelor I, the Blessed. A religious nut who among his many memorable deeds locked his sisters away to protect himself from the evils of temptation and eventually died by fasting too much, or was may have been poisoned by his councilors for being completely nuts.
Aegon IV, the Unworthy. Suspected of poisoning his father King Viserys II, his reign was filled with nothing more than his pursuit of carnal pleasure as he "did not count a night complete until he had spent himself in a woman." Thus leading to his many, many mistresses whom he disposed of in various manners when he was finished with them.
King Aerys I. A dude obsessed with ancient prophecy who was said to prefer taking a book to bed than his wife.
King Aerys II, the Mad.
And of course we're not even counting the various Princes and Princesses who we know exhibited forms of madness. Aerion Brightflame consumed wildfire believing he'd turn into a dragon. Prince Daeron became know as "the Drunken" because it was the only way he could cope with the constant visions he had. Prince Rhaegal was said to be crazy, running naked through the halls of the Red Keep.
The rest of the Kings were either sickly or ranged from competent to good rulers.
Red Arremer
Member
The power struggle between the Lancasters and Yorks in the 14th & 15th century was really interesting. I actually saw a little video about that part of English history (which also likens some of the characters to GoT ones) the other day.
bengraven
Member
I need to watch that. I know zip about British history except for the parts we're involved with or that were in major novels. If Charles Dickens, Susanna Clarke, Mel Gibson, or Naomi Novik didn't talk about it, I have no clue.
It is pretty interesting just how many fucked Targs there were. Since these are the Targs that keep getting elaborated on in the books and histories, I assume it's telling us something about Dany too. I hope she goes full nutter. Well, nuttier.
Red Arremer
Member
There's also other Targs that weren't outright mad, but didn't really help the realm either. For instance, Viserys I's weak-willed rule led to the Dance of the Dragons, after all, since he had been manipulated a LOT by Otto Hightower.
It's a great little summary of the War of the Roses. Obviously a lot of details are left out, but nothing where I'd say it's outright bad representation.
I need to watch that. I know zip about British history except for the parts we're involved with or that were in major novels. If Charles Dickens, Susanna Clarke, Mel Gibson, or Naomi Novik didn't talk about it, I have no clue.
It's a great little summary of the War of the Roses. Obviously a lot of details are left out, but nothing where I'd say it's outright bad representation.
Byakuya769
Member
What if we write profiles for Robert and Stannis Baratheon? Wouldn't look much better...
That Targ blood the Baratheons have to blame?
Eh.
She makes a big deal to Ned about how Robert would never be faithful because he's a manwhore, then goes and runs off with a married man?
I've never been able to understand that. If she willingly ran off with a married Prince, then her characterization of Robert falls hollow.
She also doomed her father and brother to death and that would imply she didn't even give a fuck as long as she was getting that Rhaegar D.
WrenchNinja
Member
Love makes you do stupid things
Like setting a whole continent at war
Like setting a whole continent at war
1. Robert was a drunken sot with a reputation of womanizing even at that early point. A bit different than one guy taking another wife for love instead of duty.
2. Rhaegar is pretty much considered the perfect guy.
3. It doesn't seem to look like Rhaegar was trying to make her "some other girl" he seems to have actually married her and unlike Elia this was a marriage for what we think was love. Although it could have been for prophecy.
4. We don't know Rahegar's intentions, he could have told her he intended to put Elia aside and have her as his only wife.
5. Lyanna is described as a fighter and wild, it's hard to imagine her being easily kidnapped and locked away. In essence, it'd be like capturing and trying to wed Arya against her will, somehow I think Needle would have something to say about that.
6. Why was she "dooming her father and brother?" How could Rhaegar or Lyanna possibly predict how events would ultimately unfold? That Brandon would be stupid enough to ride up to the Red Keep and threaten him with his life and that Aerys would be mad enough to have him and his father burned alive. That's like saying to a lesser extent that Robb should have known Walder Frey would betray the ancient custom of guest right and murder him and his entire company of men, including his mother, for breaking a marriage cotract.
We have their history laid bare for us on the page, so I guess that makes a crucial difference. When you can actually read the full history, you get the nuance. Maybe that's the problem with just profiling the Targs, you're getting this snapshot. If you could say Robert was a drunk womanizer who just wasn't made to be King but instead a Warrior (and certainly not crazy), you wouldn't say there was a slant toward that behavior since Stannis is like the exact opposite... stoic, stern, a man who is intent on doing his duty so firmly that he can sometimes be interpreted as cruel. And Renly Baratheon was different still from them, outgoing, social, beloved by the people but sometimes viewed as an candidate who isn't particularly serious.
I think it's hard to know though since Robert, Stannis and Renly are a pretty small sample for a line, and only one of them has legitimately been king.
It certainly would appear that the books are trying to say that the Targaryens tainted incestual bloodline does lead to more fucked up offspring though. Constantly talking about obsessions, wild rants, visions, cruelty, nuttery.
Elia read this and wept.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
The One True King! #TheNightKingIsNotRight
Yup, I always find Aemon's talk with Sam as he is dying pretty sad especially when he talks about hoping to see brother Dareon "whole" and "happy." When you read "The Hedge Knight" he comes off as a good enough guy just constantly plagued by visions/dreams, dreams that always came true.
Samwell said:
It also makes me wonder what would have happened if Dareon had sobered up and actually wrote down his visions to tried to make sense of them. It seems to me he was one of the most powerful "dreamers" that House Targaryen ever had probably right up there with Daenys the Dreamer. It also makes me wonder if Bloodraven ever caught on to this.
What is this Masters of the Universe looking nonsense?
The One True King! #TheNightKingIsNotRight
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