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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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bengraven

bengraven

Member
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Jibbajabbawockky said:
I don't even have any issue with Shireen getting burned. Its how they went about setting it up in the show that I dislike. Needing to rely on Ramsay's magical ninjas setting off simultaneous fire bombs that magically destroy all of the siege weapons and most of the supplies for an army full of thousands of men? Against somebody who's supposedly one of the best military minds in Westeros? Meh. Its not the plot point that bugs me so much as it is the setup was woefully inadequate and felt pretty contrived. About as contrived as how the Unsullied seemingly become about as effective as blind stormtroopers lately.
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Well they did already show a lot of starved, shaking people for half the episode.

I will admit that having grown up on the prairie that this was NOT a heavy snowstorm - hell they could see for miles around still, there was no reason to even stop in one place.
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
schlongdog said:
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/07/game-thrones-Shireen

Interview with Weiss about that scene
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When I asked Weiss the question that fans surely have tonight: “How could you do that to Shireen?” Weiss philosophically noted you could “flip that question” into a larger debate about how we’re all highly selective about which characters deserve our empathy. Stannis has been burning people alive for seemingly trivial reasons since season 2, yet we’ve still tended to regard him as a great leader—at least, by Westeros standards.

“It’s like a two-tiered system,” he noted. “If a superhero knocks over a building and there are 5,000 people in the building that we can presume are now dead, does it matter? Because they’re not people we know. But if one dog we like gets run over by a car, it’s the worst thing we’ve we’ve ever seen. I totally understand where that visceral reaction comes from. I have that same reaction. There’s also something shitty about that. So instead of saying, ‘How could you do this to somebody you know and care about?’ maybe when it’s happening to somebody we don’t know so well, maybe then it should hit us all a bit harder.”
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Kaladin said:
So he's comparing a man's daughter to a dog.....you know nothing Weiss.
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Man this interview makes no sense. It's not the fact that they did it. Or the fact that Shireen may indeed burn in the books yet to be published. Or that it was at GRRM's behest, suggestion, or recommendation. It was HOW they did it. Scenes leading up to this moment where they tried to humanize Stannis and endear him to the audience. Multiple lines and moments where he he was like "are you fucking out of your mind?" to Melisande or Selyse. Meanwhile, they did a total 180 within 20 minutes of this episode, none of which rang true or earned. It didn't even seem like he came to a full conclusion when he was talking to Shireen.

And if Martin does this, I will say the same thing. But currently it's not geographically possible in the books for Stannis to issue the decree and be present for it.
 
L

Lonestar

I joined for Erin Brockovich discussion
How I want The Winterfell story to end next episode:
Stannis comes in, wrecks Bolton's ass hard, with Roose and Ramsey hopefully dead, or at least full on captured. Sansa saved. Brienne comes out and splits Stannis in half with her 1/2 Ice sword. Brienne can either live or die after this, her purpose has been served.

How I figure it'll go down, since D&D and GRRM love to turn situations ending "right" into actually turn them into shit:
Stannis comes in, victory over the Bolton's and Sansa's salvation in sight, Brienne comes in and kills Stannis too early, Bolton's win, Sansa remains captured, Ramsey achieves Rape Smirk Level Alpha. The Bolton's become the main characters going forward. Reek becomes Maester Knubbikens.
 
C

crazyrabbits

Banned
Operations said:
Shireen got burned by Stannis. Shireen will get roasted by Stannis in the book, too.
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If that was something they actually set up in the books, as opposed to, you know, emphasizing several times that Stannis was prepared to die and have a contingency plan for his soldiers to keep fighting (or die trying) in order to ensure his daughter takes the throne, then sure.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Beelzebufo said:
Haha I honestly don't think you've understood anything about either of these two characters.

He saved Gendry because Stannis didn't need to do it, it wasn't a life or death situation. This is exemplified by the fact that after Gendry left, Stannis was just set back a bit. This is completely different, because it is. If Stannis didn't do this, everything would have been lost. He did need to do it, and it's ultimately the right thing to do for the world and humanity. It sucks which is why Stannis was so sad and waited so long, but it's literally the only option to save the entire world.

Do you really not understand this?
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I'm sorry, this is completely nonsense and suggest you profoundly misread the books and the show. Davos is a man of true honor. He doesn't want Gendry killed because he is deeply troubled by this whole red priestess nonsense. He doesn't want it to happen for Renly either, and is horrified by what he sees of Melisandre. He has been against every burning, and has repeatedly implored Stannis to let the people have their Gods. He remains against the red priestess even after his sons died at the Battle of Blackwater.

The idea that after risking his life to save Gendry that he wouldn't do the same for someone far more important in his life, because he would actually agree with Stannis that there was no other option is the most bullshit bullshit anyone has contrived yet to excuse this mess.

Davos thinks the red priestess is completely fucked.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
m_shortpants said:
Even though he defied Stannis and helped free Gendry, who was no one to him?
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Gnome said:
Shireen is fair game but Gendry/Edric was just too much?
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Yes, because if Stannis doesn't kill Shireen in this exact second, he dies and his cause is lost. That's the difference, and why it took Stannis until his tents magically burned down to turn to such extremes.

Amir0x said:
I'm sorry, this is completely nonsense and suggest you profoundly misread the books and the show. Davos is a man of true honor. He doesn't want Gendry killed because he is deeply troubled by this whole red priestess nonsense. He doesn't want it to happen for Renly either, and is horrified by what he sees of Melisandre. He has been against every burning, and has repeatedly implored Stannis to let the people have their Gods.

The idea that after risking his life to save Gendry that he wouldn't do the same for someone far more important in his life, because he would actually agree with Stannis that there was no other option is the most bullshit bullshit anyone has contrived yet to excuse this mess.

Davos thinks the red priestess is completely fucked.
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And yet he didn't kill Stannis for killing Renly, he acknowledged that that was something that needed to be done. He completely distrusts Melisandre of course, but he's always respected Stannis for his tough decision making.

If Davos does get mad about this, he's an idiot. Maybe he'll finally die soon.
 
D

duckroll

Member
Some spoilers for season 6 episode 1:

Turns out Davos never rode to the Wall, but instead stayed behind and hid himself behind the platform to rescue Shireen. But he didn't need to anyway, because once the fire consumed her, her greyscale turned active and she transformed into the Queen of Grey. She went with Davos beyond the Wall on a secret mission. After Ramsay destroys Stannis in single combat (shirtless of course), he is about to deal the finishing blow when he is suddenly knocked off screen. Stannis gets up and sees Davos and Shireen walking out of the snow storm. She's chanting from a book.

"My daughter?! What are you reading?"

"The Dance of Dragons."

A huge ice wyrm comes into view behind them, and unleashes frost breath that freezes all of Ramsay's army.

-credits-

HATERS OWNED AND DESTROYED! :D
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
This episode was bad. It's one of the few times I've ever felt that way immediately after an episode.

I'm actually not looking forward to the season finale. The Arya scene just dragged on forever. Dorne is just in a holding pattern, there isn't anything interesting happening there. I really could have lived a nice full life without seeing a little girl pretending to be burned alive (not their fault if that's what GRRM actually has planned, but I think it would have worked much better as an episode closer - fade to black and then reopen the next episode with the dirty deed done). Daznak's pit was just a mess. Daario being a sneering idiot, Tyrion/Hizdar just didn't work, the Sons of the Harpy shown being flat out more powerful than Dany's army (how did they lose the city if this is the case?), in the quickly edited tightly shot clusterfuck I think Hizdahr died...what even happens going forward in Mereen? At least when Dany disappears in the novel, there is the war going on and a piecemeal government was in place.

In the past when my friends had doubts about the show I could assure them the payoff was worth it. Now? I'll be surprised if half of them don't drop it after Jon gets it. There's nothing worth holding onto right now except his story.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Damn, and she was carrying his little stag toy...what a great character. Sorry to see her go.

Wonder what Patchface is going to do.
 
L

Last Hearth

Member
D&D bringing up GRRM to defend themselves just shows what cowards they are. They also brought up GRRM to defend their Jaime/Cersei funeral scene last year ("it happened in the books.") They do not understand context and they do not understand character motivation. Their funeral scene is not GRRM's funeral scene no matter how much they protest "same thing happened in the books".

Same is going on here, oh I have no doubt something awful happens to Shireen in the upcoming book, she might even be burned. But how and why it happens will be completely different and work in ways this show scene doesn't, at all.

In the end, I'm not upset because Shireen died, I'm pissed because the story is terribly written.

And speaking of terribly written, the Stannis stuff wasn't even the worst, the Dornish stuff is even more dreadful.
 
C

Crimson_Gold

Member
Lonestar said:
How I want The Winterfell story to end next episode:
Stannis comes in, wrecks Bolton's ass hard, with Roose and Ramsey hopefully dead, or at least full on captured. Sansa saved. Brienne comes out and splits Stannis in half with her 1/2 Ice sword. Brienne can either live or die after this, her purpose has been served.

How I figure it'll go down, since D&D and GRRM love to turn situations ending "right" into actually turn them into shit:
Stannis comes in, victory over the Bolton's and Sansa's salvation in sight, Brienne comes in and kills Stannis too early, Bolton's win, Sansa remains captured, Ramsey achieves Rape Smirk Level Alpha. The Bolton's become the main characters going forward. Reek becomes Maester Knubbikens.
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Why this had me in tears, I'll never know. Probably because something like this is exactly what would happen. Who will kill Ramsey? Is Ramsey the true Lord of Light?
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Beelzebufo said:
And yet he didn't kill Stannis for killing Renly, he acknowledged that that was something that needed to be done. He completely distrusts Melisandre of course, but he's always respected Stannis for his tough decision making.

If Davos does get mad about this, he's an idiot. Maybe he'll finally die soon.
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He has not once respected a Stannis decision to burn someone alive. Not once. This is just you making up bullshit.

Literally there is not one passage in the book of him ever even remotely approving of this method. He is not going to do it now for someone who legitimately thinks of as a daughter.
 
spootime

spootime

Member
Its strange to consider just how little has happened in Dorne over a 10 episode window. What a waste of fucking screentime.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Crimson_Gold said:
Why this had me in tears, I'll never know. Probably because something like this is exactly what would happen. Who will kill Ramsey? Is Ramsey the true Lord of Light?
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If Ramsay ever confronts Dany and her dragons they'll probably take one look at him, without his shirt on of course, and instantly follow the true king of the north instead.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Amir0x said:
He has not once respected a Stannis decision to burn someone alive. Not once. This is just you making up bullshit.
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Hmm, you may be right. He's never been able to get over the Red Preistess thing. It's a shame he was never able to team up with Pre-Death Jon. The two have the same glaring character flaw.

But if nothing else, I'm just still happy this is the first time we've seen Stannis in character in god knows how long. It's just a shame it was surrounded by the stupid Ramsay bullshit. #KingofMyHeart
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
Last Hearth said:
D&D bringing up GRRM to defend themselves just shows what cowards they are. They also brought up GRRM to defend their Jaime/Cersei funeral scene last year ("it happened in the books.") They do not understand context and they do not understand character motivation. Their funeral scene is not GRRM's funeral scene no matter how much they protest "same thing happened in the books".

Same is going on here, oh I have no doubt something awful happens to Shireen in the upcoming book, she might even be burned. But how and why it happens will be completely different and work in ways this show scene doesn't, at all.

In the end, I'm not upset because Shireen died, I'm pissed because the story is terribly written.

And speaking of terribly written, the Stannis stuff wasn't even the worst, the Dornish stuff is even more dreadful.
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Yeah, this is exactly it.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
I honestly don't understand the point of Dorne this season. Nothing of relevance happened. Were they plagued by production and scheduling difficulties? Because I don't see why this plot thread just wasn't cut from the show.
 
R

RyanDG

Member
Amir0x said:
He has not once respected a Stannis decision to burn someone alive. Not once. This is just you making up bullshit.

Literally there is not one passage in the book of him ever even remotely approving of this method. He is not going to do it now for someone who legitimately thinks of as a daughter.
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Yeah this whole Davos revisioning is kind of surprising to me... And it goes to show how much the TV show has really missed Davos' north plot.
 
G

Gnome

Member
Beelzebufo said:
Yes, because if Stannis doesn't kill Shireen in this exact second, he dies and his cause is lost. That's the difference, and why it took Stannis until his tents magically burned down to turn to such extremes.
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This reasoning is in line with Stannis, sure. But Davos has never been an ends justify the means sort of person, it's just not in him to let it happen. "The cause" wouldn't be worth it.
 
O

Operations

Member
Amir0x said:
He has not once respected a Stannis decision to burn someone alive. Not once. This is just you making up bullshit.

Literally there is not one passage in the book of him ever even remotely approving of this method. He is not going to do it now for someone who legitimately thinks of as a daughter.
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Stannis knew Davos wouldn't respect it; that's why he sent him away.

It's pointless to speculate if it will be properly setup in the book or not, too many things could happen that we cannot anticipate.
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
I should also mention the episode scene orientation was horrible. Instead of building up to it and allow the audience most of the episode to see Stannis struggling with the decision, they decide to axe her off in the first half so they spend more time in Mereen. That way they get their happy ending of an episode!

Despite you know Dany riding off with her dragon is cheesy as fuck and undermines the tragedy of the first half.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Amir0x said:
it's a glaring character flaw to not want a little girl to be burned alive for the needs of the many :<
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Yes! Well kind of. Davos has never been put into a position of real power so his failure to make the hard decisions to protect the most people doesn't have many consequences.

But for Jon of course, it does. When you're tasked with protecting every living thing from an undead army, caring more about your daughter or sister or some wildlings or whatever is a character flaw haha.

I guess I'm just saying that Davos would be a really shitty leader/protector of humanity and we're lucky Stannis is in charge instead :p
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Operations said:
Stannis knew Davos wouldn't respect it; that's why he sent him away.
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Haha another good point. Even Stannis knows Davos would not be cool with this shit lol

Operations said:
It's pointless to speculate if it will be properly setup in the book or not, too many things could happen that we cannot anticipate.
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Of course. But it's going to take some remarkable writing to get Stannis to a place in the book where he approves of it, AND takes that option over the many others he has in the book :p
 
J

Jarmel

Banned
Basileus777 said:
I honestly don't understand the point of Dorne this season. Nothing of relevance happened. Were they plagued by production and scheduling difficulties? Because I don't see why this plot thread just wasn't cut from the show.
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It's to get Jaime out of King's Landing, so Cersei being arrested and detained makes sense, and give the actors something exciting to do. That's it. It's complete filler.
 
M

Mashing

Member
Oh man, Stannis is lucky he found some bullshit excuse for sending Davos away as it would have stabbed Stannis in the fucking head for burning Shireen. If there's ANYTHING interesting about that clusterfuck it is that we get to see Davos lay down some fucking justice sooner or later.
 
N

Nazgul_Hunter

Member
Ganzlinger said:
Pretty much. They are clearly defending their butts with that. lol
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Jesus this makes it sound like D&D are evil maniacs who *knew* the storyline, then decided to change the perfect GRRM sequence of events, THEN knew people would be PISSED about it, so they write a video scapegoating GRRM BEFOREHAND all to satisfy their huge ego and mess with people.

RE: Dorne... I found myself thinking that in the books as well
 
S

suzu

Member
Arya following Trant the whole time was goofy.

Dorne stuff is... Dorne stuff. Meh.

The Daznak's Pit scenes were pretty underwhelming. I thought the CG was good up until Dany got on the dragon.
 
T

Tabris

Member
the Sons of the Harpy shown being flat out more powerful than Dany's army (how did they lose the city if this is the case?)
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Her army wasn't there, just a small queens guard contingent. I assume her army is in the city. This was a surprise attack.
 
D

Dysun

Member
Operations said:
Great episode. Only disliked the Sand snakes and Bronn scenes, which seem to be included deliberately for comic relief.

Shireen got burned by Stannis. Shireen will get roasted by Stannis in the book, too. Stop overanalyzing D&D's behind the scenes comment and just accept this is how GRRM wrote it. This is only the tip of the iceberg, as more and more unpublished book content gets spoiled in the books. Move on people.
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Nah, I won't buy it until I see the book in my hand and read it myself. There's a big difference between Shireen being burned at the Wall by Selyse/Melisandre and done at Stannis behest after a spec ops firebomb Ramsay run.
 
A

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I realize burning Theon would make less sense since the northern clans are not with Stannis, but I still wish Theon had helped Sansa escape at some point and ended up with Stannis. Then you have Ramsey send a letter to Jon (assuming Sansa was fleeing north to the wall) threatening the Night's Watch. When Jon decides to confront him Ollie stabs him in the back.
 
T

TheNamesPlissken

Neo Member
Intro shot of Jon's storyline, him walking up to the wall, paralleled the shot of the nights king. Starting at his similar boots then slowly panning up. Wonder if it was intentional? Doubt it.
 
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