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[Alpha Centauri]

Won't a revived Jon be a lesser human? You get the feeling that GRRM portrays revivals as if these were wrong.

Hard to see Jon positioned as a pure, hero of the Realm character.after being revived.

Beric only became noticeably lesser after half a dozen or more reincarnations. So what if he gets a 10% nerf, Jon is still the hero. Plus, if Mel gets to him quickly before Rigor sets in, I think he should be pretty close to the same.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

huh, I'd never actually heard of that theory before. It seems like it disregards some key points (like blue roses on the wall, dany being famously stormborn etc) but what do other people think?

It disregards key points while taking lines out of context and twisting the narrative to support the idea and makes ridiculous leaps in convoluted logic and goes completely against a firmly established timeline of events. But he puts it up in a compelling way that a lot of people who haven't taken the time to do any other homework or thought, buy into it completely though maybe some do because Jon being Lyanna's kid is too predictable and think GRRM is all about twists and subverting cliche's, ignoring the fact that the series has plenty of them, ignoring that the subversion would more come from the "chosen one" ending up not being the savior in the end or even getting a happy ending which I don't think Jon or Dany will have even if one or the other or both survive.

I wouldn't mind the theory so much as the people who have seemingly formed a cult around his videos and parrot it on other places that have brought up the R+L=J over the last year or so with this one guy I've seen in multiple places who's his biggest fanboy thinking Skinchanging Sweetrobin (his westeros.org name) is so brilliant obsevations that he should take over writing the books from George.

I take offense to that comment!

Wait, what is the theory? How can an actual Targ also be a secret Targ?

Watch the "Tower of Joy Joy Joy" videos he put up, that's just one of the many problems with it. I can grant him that Dany is not a reliable narrator but that's not a ground breaking observation but that's pretty much it.

 

[RyanDG]

Won't a revived Jon be a lesser human? You get the feeling that GRRM portrays revivals as if these were wrong.

Hard to see Jon positioned as a pure, hero of the Realm character.after being revived.

Personally, who wants Jon to be a pure, hero? I'll take zombified Jon with vengeance on his mind and a possible side taste for human brains over a pure hero any day.

Plus it will make the inevitable marriage to Dany all the more interesting.

 

[BobTheFork]

Yup, Targs aren't immune. Dany survived because of the blood magic.

She couldn't/didn't burn her hands on the red hot dragon eggs in the first earlier than that. I think she is actually immune to fire but that doesn't extend to any other Targeryans.

 

[demosthenes]

Won't a revived Jon be a lesser human? You get the feeling that GRRM portrays revivals as if these were wrong.

Hard to see Jon positioned as a pure, hero of the Realm character.after being revived.

Unless he's azor ahai.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Beric only became noticeably lesser after half a dozen or more reincarnations. So what if he gets a 10% nerf, Jon is still the hero. Plus, if Mel gets to him quickly before Rigor sets in, I think he should be pretty close to the same.

Going even further, I'm not sure that this will even be a traditional rez like Beric or LSH. If he's going to be Azor Ahai reborn, this may be more of a situation like Dany coming out of the fire with her dragons. He could be more than he was before. Quite a bit more.

 

[Rentahamster]

So people actually think Jon is dead?

Maybe its just me but..

I just assume the red bitch is there to save him. It was the whole purpose of burning shireen was it not?

She believes in his future more than stannis and needs to revive jon. Its the whole reason we had the previous scene with the mountain and brothers without banners. The show writers had to setup the audiance for revival. Especially without lady stoneheart, it was solely so we would believe in her magic and it wouldnt be outlandish as a plot device when we see it used for the second time.

Im assuming we will see some sort of ceremony where they will burn jons body. Since he is a half targaryen the fire will not burn him. It will be a double whammy and the burning of his body will also be what brings him back. Thats why it was important to burn shireen alive and not simply use her blood, it would be nessesary for the revival of jon snow.

At this point he can then walk away from his life at the black having ended his vows with his former lifes debt and head south with the free folk and amass an army to take back winterfell. Along the way he will see sam and rejoin sansa and brienne.

Or am I just crazy?

He got burned in season 1 when he grabbed the lantern and threw it at the wights.

 

[TRios Zen]

Won't a revived Jon be a lesser human? You get the feeling that GRRM portrays revivals as if these were wrong.

Hard to see Jon positioned as a pure, hero of the Realm character.after being revived.

There is no purity in GRRMs world, it must all become sullied or die.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

Won't a revived Jon be a lesser human? You get the feeling that GRRM portrays revivals as if these were wrong.

Hard to see Jon positioned as a pure, hero of the Realm character.after being revived.

He does. He spoke about how he didn't like the way Gandalf came back in LOTR and he wanted to show that when characters do come back, they are not the same or are pretty fucked up. Beric doesn't play a huge role in the series but even he said he lost a bit of himself every time he came back. The biggest one was LSH of course.

Maybe the resurrected Jon will be a much colder and unforgiving character.

 

[elrechazado]

She couldn't/didn't burn her hands on the red hot dragon eggs in the first earlier than that. I think she is actually immune to fire but that doesn't extend to any other Targeryans.

She was burned by drogon in adwd

 

[A_Gorilla]

Oh my God.

They're gonna merge Jon and LSH aren't they?

 

[dubq]

Well he's in charge here too, but Varys doesn't kill him, which presents a new set of circumstances.

This could still happen, IMO.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Here is how the books are going to go down I think (and the show will follow kind of):

- Jon is revived somehow. Doesn't really matter how.
- When revived, he is protected by Tormund and other wildlings from the NW.
- He is now free of his oath to the NW. Or maybe they won't even know he's back.
- He leads the wildlings to Winterfell to take it.
- He takes it, along with help from other northern lords who reveal he is a Stark (named by Rob in his will as a legitimate heir), and is declared King in the North.

 

[dubq]

This guy has an interesting theory on Stannis mid way through this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70

 

[NeoGiff]

Here is how the books are going to go down I think (and the show will follow kind of):

- Jon is revived somehow. Doesn't really matter how.
- When revived, he is protected by Tormund and other wildlings from the NW.
- He is now free of his oath to the NW. Or maybe they won't even know he's back.
- He leads the wildlings to Winterfell to take it.
- He takes it, along with help from other northern lords who reveal he is a Stark (named by Rob in his will as a legitimate heir), and is declared King in the North.

This is nothing but speculative tripe. You've conveniently glossed over the most glaring flaw in your summary - how Jon, or anyone for that matter, could have any hope of defeating Twenty Good Men.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

Did we ever discover anything more on this?

Quote from George RR Martin from April

Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. ”This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved… it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already—on this particular character—made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.”

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Here is how the books are going to go down I think (and the show will follow kind of):

- Jon is revived somehow. Doesn't really matter how.
- When revived, he is protected by Tormund and other wildlings from the NW.
- He is now free of his oath to the NW. Or maybe they won't even know he's back.
- He leads the wildlings to Winterfell to take it.
- He takes it, along with help from other northern lords who reveal he is a Stark (named by Rob in his will as a legitimate heir), and is declared King in the North.

Yes yes

Speculate

Away

 

[demosthenes]

Here is how the books are going to go down I think (and the show will follow kind of):

- Jon is revived somehow. Doesn't really matter how.
- When revived, he is protected by Tormund and other wildlings from the NW.
- He is now free of his oath to the NW. Or maybe they won't even know he's back.
- He leads the wildlings to Winterfell to take it.
- He takes it, along with help from other northern lords who reveal he is a Stark (named by Rob in his will as a legitimate heir), and is declared King in the North.

I love this, so it won't happen.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Dedicated to all my fellow GAF members who are #teamRamsay now

 

[elrechazado]

This is nothing but speculative tripe. You've conveniently glossed over the most glaring flaw in your summary - how Jon, or anyone for that matter, could have any hope of defeating Twenty Good Men.

And what if Ramsey goes shirtless and brings a dog ?

 

[Memento Mori]

Did we ever discover anything more on this?

Quote from George RR Martin from April

Jaime and Cersei being Targaryens? Three/four characters he's talking about being Jaime, Cersei, Dany and Jon.

 

[Thug Waffle]

This is nothing but speculative tripe. You've conveniently glossed over the most glaring flaw in your summary - how Jon, or anyone for that matter, could have any hope of defeating Twenty Good Men.

We're not past this joke yet?

 

[CassSept]

Beric only became noticeably lesser after half a dozen or more reincarnations. So what if he gets a 10% nerf, Jon is still the hero. Plus, if Mel gets to him quickly before Rigor sets in, I think he should be pretty close to the same.

Not physically, mentally. It also depends on the time spent dead. People become less human the longer they stay dead.

 

[The Lamonster]

Did we ever discover anything more on this?

Quote from George RR Martin from April

It's concerning that he's considering a presumably huge character defining twist this late in the game, and quite possibly if only to irk the television show's producers.

 

[PhoenixDark]

We've only seen one warg escape death (Varamyr), and even there we didn't see enough of him to tell how much of his previous self was lost. Whereas Beric and Catelyn were literally dead before being revived. Jon lives on in Ghost though, which could lead to him being revived without the same type of loss of humanity/memories/etc.

Now to be fair, every major magical act/event in the books has cost something. I assume Shireen will be burned as a part of this, but there's also no guarantee Jon comes back 100% as Jon.

I wonder how long he'll be inside Ghost, and whether we'll get a Ghost chapter lol. Also I wonder if George will troll everyone with a "Jon" chapter that is actually Jon Connington.

 

[dubq]

Has this theory, re: Dorne, been posted? http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3a9w1t/spoilers_all_showdorans_plan/

 

[Brakke]

This is nothing but speculative tripe. You've conveniently glossed over the most glaring flaw in your summary - how Jon, or anyone for that matter, could have any hope of defeating Twenty Good Men.

We're not past this joke yet?

I'm saying.

 

[Speevy]

Whether Stannis is alive or dead, his entire army is wiped out.

There's no trick or clever strategy for beating 10,000 men on flat ground when you're unmounted.

 

[Real Hero]

It's concerning that he's considering a presumably huge character defining twist this late in the game, and quite possibly if only to irk the television show's producers.

Why is that your take away? He's said he's thought up what he's think is a great twist. It is not like he has everything little thing planned out.

 

[RyanDG]

We've only seen one warg escape death (Varamyr), and even there we didn't see enough of him to tell how much of his previous self was lost. Whereas Beric and Catelyn were literally dead before being revived. Jon lives on in Ghost though, which could lead to him being revived without the same type of loss of humanity/memories/etc.

Now to be fair, every major magical act/event in the books has cost something. I assume Shireen will be burned as a part of this, but there's also no guarantee Jon comes back 100% as Jon.

I wonder how long he'll be inside Ghost, and whether we'll get a Ghost chapter lol. Also I wonder if George will troll everyone with a "Jon" chapter that is actually Jon Connington.

You know... If Jon does come back, I don't think there's even a guarantee he'll return as a POV character. I can see Martin writing all of Jon's exploits from the perspective of those around him. Especially if he is some chosen hero.

 

[Lakitu]

Hasn't Kit Harrington outright said he's 'dead dead' and not coming back?

 

[Thug Waffle]

There is a silver lining to how Stannis' alleged death was handled in the show. It was pretty much rushed to the point in about two episodes. It was sloppy, feeling like a total character dump (D&D didn't know what to do with him after this season, so they killed him).

This gives us yet another viable reason to criticize the show for its deviations (on top of this season's Dorne plot), and it'll make the books that much better by comparison if we assume GRRM has a better way of killing the Mannis.

It could also be that D&D left it open because they aren't yet sure if they want to bring Stannis back in the future. If they do, it's cool because they didn't show him die. If they don't, it's still reasonable because they implied his death heavily enough.




sorry, i'm just super salty about how Stannis was offed in the show. as a writer (an immensely amateur one at that), it angers me greatly to see him rushed out of the picture in ways that so blatantly and spontaneously defy his characterization to this point.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I wonder if George will troll everyone with a "Jon" chapter that is actually Jon Connington.

lmao

 

[The Lamonster]

Hasn't Kit Harrington outright said he's 'dead dead' and not coming back?

it's not canon.

 

[CassSept]

We've only seen one warg escape death (Varamyr), and even there we didn't see enough of him to tell how much of his previous self was lost. Whereas Beric and Catelyn were literally dead before being revived. Jon lives on in Ghost though, which could lead to him being revived without the same type of loss of humanity/memories/etc.

Now to be fair, every major magical act/event in the books has cost something. I assume Shireen will be burned as a part of this, but there's also no guarantee Jon comes back 100% as Jon.

I wonder how long he'll be inside Ghost, and whether we'll get a Ghost chapter lol. Also I wonder if George will troll everyone with a "Jon" chapter that is actually Jon Connington.

I'll admit, I last read the chapter 3 years ago, but didn't Varamyr start going kinda feral from warging a lot alone? Obviously, we've only seen it one way, i.e. escaping while dying, who knows what coming back entails. How exactly the process of resurrecting and returning to his body goes. Does consciousness return at the same time as the body, is the body first resurrected and then Jon would warg back into himself?

Point is, with how he referenced the general aura around the kiss of life and the atmosphere of simply it not feeling... right, I don't see how Jon could return and not be changed, significantly.

Well, obviously, he was betrayed by those closest to him, that can't go over well either.

 

[BuggyDClown]

He got burned in season 1 when he grabbed the lantern and threw it at the wights.

Whoops. I think you've forgotten about a certain someone's hand getting burned pretty badly by a certain lamp...

Not to mention this whole idea about Targs not being burnable. It's a little more complicated than that.

Exactly, its not a simple burn as much as it is the magic of fire.

Also one could argue his stark side will die and a new Jon will be born, maybe burning shireen will save only his kings blood.

Either way it's more of a resistance to fire through magic than it is heat.

 

[Fuzzy]

We're not past this joke yet?

.

 

[Victarion]

Yeah Jon's revival has to a have significance otherwise what's the point of dying and and coming back if he were to keep doing his usual stuff with the Night's Watch and all that crap.

 

[Thug Waffle]

.

Okay, that one's funny

 

[Liquidsnake]

Here is how the books are going to go down I think (and the show will follow kind of):

- Jon is revived somehow. Doesn't really matter how.
- When revived, he is protected by Tormund and other wildlings from the NW.
- He is now free of his oath to the NW. Or maybe they won't even know he's back.
- He leads the wildlings to Winterfell to take it.
- He takes it, along with help from other northern lords who reveal he is a Stark (named by Rob in his will as a legitimate heir), and is declared King in the North.

This sounds so good, that I know it won't happen.

 

[Pocks]

This guy has an interesting theory on Stannis mid way through this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Fuzzy]

Has this theory, re: Dorne, been posted? http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3a9w1t/spoilers_all_showdorans_plan/

At least it would make some sense as far as Doran is concerned. That makes me think it won't happen. :lol

 

[Shahadan]

The idea of Jon is to always be an in-between character. He's not really a stark, not really a crow, not really a wildling, not even really a warg, yet he is every single one of those. And at some point denied being every single one of those

Being half alive, half dead wouldn't be surprising for him. He never found his place anywhere and I don't expect this to be over anytime soon.
He's the bridge between two things or people, always stuck in the middle. He's a bastard in this sense of the term.

Zombie it is for me.
Might also be why they got rid of Stoneheart, it would lessen Jon's importance if another important revived character was around. Dondarrion is a detail and it was a long time ago.

 

[CitizenVectron]

This guy has an interesting theory on Stannis mid way through this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70

Is anyone able to summarize the theory? I can't watch the video at work.

 

[Kaladin]

*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Off Season - Jon Snow is Thanos

 

[jett]

God dammit. Just found this on the Dreadfort subreddit.

lol

 

[Partition]

Is anyone able to summarize the theory? I can't watch the video at work.

Instead of Stannis' men fleeing in the night, he suggests that Stannis sent them away, went into battle with half his men, so he could fight the Boltons again later with the remaining half.

 

[TheCowboyPoet]

This guy has an interesting theory on Stannis mid way through this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70

Uh, wasn't Sansa heading back to her room before Ramsay got back or someone noticed her? I never got the impression she was trying to escape on her own.

 

[Fuzzy]

Is anyone able to summarize the theory? I can't watch the video at work.

Half of Stannis' army didn't desert, he ordered them away so when Ramsay slaughtered his weak half they would be lulled into a false sense of security. Brienne didn't kill Stannis because when he told her to do her duty she realizes killing him isn't her duty, saving Sansa is.

 

[eot]

This guy has an interesting theory on Stannis mid way through this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70

I was going to say that sounds like some Preston Jacobs level of tinfoil, then I glanced down. Only that guy would think up something as stupid as Stannis ordering half his army to desert. His TWoW theories are even worse. In one video he suggest Penny is an agent for Littlefinger.