Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I can't believe I understood that reference. <3 you, internet.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread
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I can't believe I understood that reference. <3 you, internet.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I can't stand the fans of his theories, especially the R+L=D B+A=J theory and the fans that repeat it are an annoying bane of my existence but that was great. I should watch that back from the start... Maybe later.
Mads Mikkelson beats Balon at Mario Party then wargs a krakken and destorys Ramsay's 20 good men and dogs.
Euron kills Balon then attacks Oldtown to get the Dragon Horn. He succeeds and kills Randyll Tarly.
But we ARE allready getting Books 4 and 5 in approximately 2 seasons.
We got material in Season 4, whole season 5 and now we are getting still storys from those 2 books in season 6
shanshan310
Member
huh, I'd never actually heard of that theory before. It seems like it disregards some key points (like blue roses on the wall, dany being famously stormborn etc) but what do other people think?
shanshan310
Member
Well, it would make the whole Wylla thing make more sense and how she was Jon's wet-nurse.
Red Arremer
Member
I watch his stuff because I do think his theories are at least amusing even if not right. He also makes some very cool observations and connections that I didn't think of, and even while they might be wrong, they're still neat.
I also do believe that R+L=J is too obvious to be true. There's various things about it that just don't sit right with me. It's just been repeated so often that it just is accepted as canon although we don't know if it's true.
Also, I don't like his show-related material, as he's a book purist and occasionally is incessantly whining about stuff (although he does also give credit sometimes where it's due, like he called the Battle of Hardhome cool and whatnot). If you don't mind that, go ahead. The book-to-show comparison videos also are ehh.
Why the fuck would Ned be so cagey about Jon's parentage if it was his bro and some Dayne a thousand miles away, lol. Preserve the maid's honor of Ashara I guess but fucken tell Catelyn at least! That's like the #1 point of tension in your marriage! R+L=J puts Jon in succession to the throne which is Big and Dangerous, so hide that completely, sure. But Some Dead Lord and Some Lady did bone is not a big deal...
Bran is gonna tell everyone through Vine.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
Howland Reed, Benjen, Bran powers, in fact, you could even have Melissandre hint/tell him.
WrenchNinja
Member
I just tried to explain this in 6 seconds and it was really hard
Atraveller
Banned
Vine, hehe.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Algebra ain't cool.
Mel joins with bran and lights him on fire. He becomes the prophecy.
StopMakingSense
Member
Yeah, somebody thinks he's a maester or some shit.
Howland "The High Sparrow" Reed.
Also like whatever. It's not below GRR to just out-of-the-blue introduce Super Significant Characters four books in or whatever.
Ser Jeff of Dingleberry Holdfast was there. He knows the truth!
It's a good thing Mance is Rhaegar so he won't have to go there!
shanshan310
Member
Yeeeah that's really where the theory falls apart in my eyes too. I'd say that it's about equally as likely that the parents were either Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne (with Wylla as the wet-nurse) or Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.
Mel would tell him he is a Lannister because she can't read the fires for shit.
R + L = Aegon, Ned took him away and gave him to Ashara Dayne, causing her to be distraught (like Gilly) as Ned took Jon (her child) away with him, that's why she leaped from the tower at Starfall. I know the likelihood is really low, but I stand by it irrationally until GRRM does the proper reveal.
I have just finished the last episode, and I must say that this is the season that have finally convinced me that Benioff and Weiss are simply not up to the task. Not the slightest. Keep in mind that I am not a purist, and in the beggining of the season I defended that many changes ought to be made if books were adapted, as many of the AFFC / ADWD scenes were downright unfilmable, and lot of the meandering plots could be trimmed.
But if I would have to pinpoint an exact moment that broke the proverbial camel's back, that would be Shireen's execution.
It showed us that B & W believes that one character acting on a completely contrarian way to his own personality and self-interest, moving by absurd motivations bordering schyzophrenia is somehow "surprising" and that it could help them out to archieve a powerful "shock effect" a la Red Wedding, when in the end the only thing they archieve is to confound the spectator as they don't understand why people act the way they do (my gf was all the time wondering "why they "shuddenly decided to make a sacrifice?", and to destroy the character as it acts against its own impulses.
Ned Stark getting beheaded by his own daughter Arya would have been indeed a surprising and traumatizing turn of events. But it would also be an utterly stupid and infuriating "twist". I say "infuriating", not because of how much traumatric and cruel the scene would be, but rather because it would be utterly ilogical for it to happen. Kinda like Stannis, the men hell-bent on seating his family on the throne, extinguishing his own bloodline at the first little difficulty that he met in his military campaign, Littlefinger the great spymaster being oblivious to Ramsay's torturing antics, Jaime the men madly in love raping his love interest Cersei, Selysse the nutty horrible mother shuddenly feeling appreciation for her daughter, Renly the the romantic man in love with Renly, fucking his tears away with the first pretty boy that crossed his path, and a long, long etc of character de-characterization for the shake of archieving cheapass "shocks".
And their defense of their creative decision? "It actually happens in the books". Seriously? Seriously? SERIOUYSLY? How much little artistic integrity you must have in order to resort to this piece of a shit of a excuse? Yes, Shireen's execution happens in the books too, I am sure of that. Martin gave you guidelines about where the story should go, afterall. "Eddard stark gets beheaded, Shireen ends up burning in a stake". But it was your job to move the story foward towards these goals on a coherent, dramatic, logical, enganging manner. And you just simply couldn't do it because you're mediocre narrators, so don't try to use Martin's guidelines as a shield of your incompentence. Stannis sacrifizing his own daughter in order to stop a massive white walker invasion is not the same as Stannis sacrifizing his daughter because "20 good men" armed with incredible anti-ironborn dogs burnt their supplies, which is also completely different than Melissandre sacrifizing Shireen in order to bring back the Lord of Light.
As a further example of a bad adaptation, do you know what also happens in the books? The Ironborn retrieving the magical dragon controlling horn. But if you introduce that plot device in the next season (as it is likely going to happen) you're not being "faithful to the books"; as you are makin the plot advance by the virtue of a deus ex machina (the ironborn navigators) since unlike the books, they were a non-entity absent for one entire season. And so on, and on and on. The showrunners know where the story should go, but they lack the skill to move it gracefully or in a cohesive manner. Once the showrunners lost the book's guidance, they simply couldn't make the plot advance on their own, so they resorted it to mis-characerization and deus ex machina (or Deus Ex Ramsay, if you wish).
And then the finale arrived. And by God, they were indeed stupid enough to believe that they were being "faithful to the books" by chockfilling the end of the season with anticlimatic cliffhangers that did more to confuse the watchers and further de-characterize the characters rather than creating any kind of meaningful suspense or dramatic gravitas. Some people that are still debating whereas Stannis was still alive or if Sansa died at the fall, yet the unsullied have figured out Jon's resurrection, for fuck's shake.
In short, I have started to become angry at the show, not because it insult "my sensibilities", as we're talking about a story that starts by crippling children, but rather because it insults my intellicence as a viewer, and my instincts as a writter. And it is a pity, because this adaptation could have been something truthly special.
HBO please, rescue this series from these hacks and replace them with your own, better writters. [/RANT]
But if I would have to pinpoint an exact moment that broke the proverbial camel's back, that would be Shireen's execution.
It showed us that B & W believes that one character acting on a completely contrarian way to his own personality and self-interest, moving by absurd motivations bordering schyzophrenia is somehow "surprising" and that it could help them out to archieve a powerful "shock effect" a la Red Wedding, when in the end the only thing they archieve is to confound the spectator as they don't understand why people act the way they do (my gf was all the time wondering "why they "shuddenly decided to make a sacrifice?", and to destroy the character as it acts against its own impulses.
Ned Stark getting beheaded by his own daughter Arya would have been indeed a surprising and traumatizing turn of events. But it would also be an utterly stupid and infuriating "twist". I say "infuriating", not because of how much traumatric and cruel the scene would be, but rather because it would be utterly ilogical for it to happen. Kinda like Stannis, the men hell-bent on seating his family on the throne, extinguishing his own bloodline at the first little difficulty that he met in his military campaign, Littlefinger the great spymaster being oblivious to Ramsay's torturing antics, Jaime the men madly in love raping his love interest Cersei, Selysse the nutty horrible mother shuddenly feeling appreciation for her daughter, Renly the the romantic man in love with Renly, fucking his tears away with the first pretty boy that crossed his path, and a long, long etc of character de-characterization for the shake of archieving cheapass "shocks".
And their defense of their creative decision? "It actually happens in the books". Seriously? Seriously? SERIOUYSLY? How much little artistic integrity you must have in order to resort to this piece of a shit of a excuse? Yes, Shireen's execution happens in the books too, I am sure of that. Martin gave you guidelines about where the story should go, afterall. "Eddard stark gets beheaded, Shireen ends up burning in a stake". But it was your job to move the story foward towards these goals on a coherent, dramatic, logical, enganging manner. And you just simply couldn't do it because you're mediocre narrators, so don't try to use Martin's guidelines as a shield of your incompentence. Stannis sacrifizing his own daughter in order to stop a massive white walker invasion is not the same as Stannis sacrifizing his daughter because "20 good men" armed with incredible anti-ironborn dogs burnt their supplies, which is also completely different than Melissandre sacrifizing Shireen in order to bring back the Lord of Light.
As a further example of a bad adaptation, do you know what also happens in the books? The Ironborn retrieving the magical dragon controlling horn. But if you introduce that plot device in the next season (as it is likely going to happen) you're not being "faithful to the books"; as you are makin the plot advance by the virtue of a deus ex machina (the ironborn navigators) since unlike the books, they were a non-entity absent for one entire season. And so on, and on and on. The showrunners know where the story should go, but they lack the skill to move it gracefully or in a cohesive manner. Once the showrunners lost the book's guidance, they simply couldn't make the plot advance on their own, so they resorted it to mis-characerization and deus ex machina (or Deus Ex Ramsay, if you wish).
And then the finale arrived. And by God, they were indeed stupid enough to believe that they were being "faithful to the books" by chockfilling the end of the season with anticlimatic cliffhangers that did more to confuse the watchers and further de-characterize the characters rather than creating any kind of meaningful suspense or dramatic gravitas. Some people that are still debating whereas Stannis was still alive or if Sansa died at the fall, yet the unsullied have figured out Jon's resurrection, for fuck's shake.
In short, I have started to become angry at the show, not because it insult "my sensibilities", as we're talking about a story that starts by crippling children, but rather because it insults my intellicence as a viewer, and my instincts as a writter. And it is a pity, because this adaptation could have been something truthly special.
HBO please, rescue this series from these hacks and replace them with your own, better writters. [/RANT]
Bubblicious
Member
Was it ever explained why Jon's eyes/irises appear lighter at the end? Lighting trickery?
I rewatched and didn't notice an eye thing...thought I saw it the first time but a second viewing I didn't.
Have an image that shows this?
I'm pretty sure his eyes turned lighter when he was dying.
Look at his eyes. I dunno, it could just be the lighting too.
edit: now that I think about it, it's probably just the lighting. They stop getting lighter at a certain point.
Ehhhh I don't see it.
shanshan310
Member
I thought Shireen was still alive in the books.
It's a good point though. A lot of things were portrayed quite differently even though they technically did happen in the books. Cersei sleeping with Jamie after Joffery's death is a good example of that.
Guess it's just the lighting + me desperately looking for hints they wouldn't just end on a cheap cliffhanger.
SpaceHorror
Member
It hasn't happened yet, but based on what D&D said in an interview it seems likely to happen. Though I'm sure in the books it'll actually be properly built up to.
Also, regarding the interview the director gave about how D&D thought showing Stannis' death on screen would have been gratuitous because he is a broken man who just lost everything. So showing a man who brought about his own downfall by succumbing to the red witch and burning his daughter get killed can't be shown out of fear of being too gratuitous, but we can see Catelyn Stark get her throat slit? A woman who lost her husband, thinks her other kids likely dead, and just saw her son and unborn grandchild get brutally murdered? Bullshit.
Dude is alive. They didn't have to show his fucking head roll across the ground, but they could have made it clear Brienne killed him.
Might have been discussed already but I thought I noticed a lighting change and Jon moves slightly.
Either way, I'm pretty sure he's not perma-dead.
Edit:
I think the point of all of the cliffhangery death scenes was to establish that some characters will die off screen(Syrio Forel) and to not take much confidence in that. It also could make Jon's return all the more surprising for some since his death was on screen.
Still holding out hope that they bring the Hound back. ;_;
Either way, I'm pretty sure he's not perma-dead.
Edit:
I think the point of all of the cliffhangery death scenes was to establish that some characters will die off screen(Syrio Forel) and to not take much confidence in that. It also could make Jon's return all the more surprising for some since his death was on screen.
Still holding out hope that they bring the Hound back. ;_;
BrassDragon
Member
I mean honestly, D&D should just stop defending themselves at this point. It doesn't matter what the controversy of the week is, whatever comes out of their mouth in response just makes their choices seem even more arbitrary and poorly thought-out.
So do we reckon we'll see a return of Rickon next season? I can't imagine they'll be doing the Manderly storyline but surely they plan on reintroducing him? It looks like Art has only done two films in the last couple of years - I wonder if they'll recast him or use the same actor.
Moff
Member
but why?
To confuse you.
...Because he didn't want Robert Baratheon to murder his nephew?
That's what he's saying, the only reason for Ned to be cagey about Jon's mother, is if R+L=J is true.
If Ashara was Jon's mother, why the hell would it be such a huge secret, kept from everyone, if it was to protect the honor of a woman half way across Westeros, why keep it a secret even from Jon himself.
You think that wouldn't leak?
There are far too many unions and union rules for that to work. They have to shuttle directors around their multi country locations so they each do an episode where as a more reasonable practice would be to have directors in each location.
One director per production is one of the most hardened rules, waived only for formalised collaborators. HBO renegotiating their labour agreement for the show would be perilous and lead to a potential work stoppage.
Then their are seperate writers and actors guilds to satisfy as well.
Latvian Hitman
Member
That's not really feasible. They're on an extremely tight schedule just trying to keep up with 10 episodes per year with the size and scope of this production as-is. There's no way they could have written and shot all of the stuff that would involve Jon in S6 (including sets, all the other actors/extras, on-set VFX, etc.) during the timeframe that they were trying to get S5 produced.
Doesn't take that long to film him lying on some wood and being set on fire though.
Veritigo_X
Member
Yeah, I could see them getting that quick funeral scene out of the way while filming season 5.
Latvian Hitman
Member
True- if we're talking about his "reborn" form being radically different and being played by another actor or something, then just shooting an extra scene or two with Kit is no big deal. I guess that's the thing- we don't really know what to expect out of this. Such a weird feeling to finally be at this point...
Ape Gone Insane
Member
Offseason thread is basically going to be Kit Harington Hair Watch.
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