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[Last Hearth]

That's the thing, as a show watcher I don't have an inherent problem with any of those changes, aside from Dorne being horrible which I thought was the same in the books. The show has real life constraints so the shortcuts are perfectly reasonable to me. Not always well executed, but at least reasonable. I was not down for fArya which is the dumbest idea ever to me.

You are entitled to like whatever you like, and others are entitled to dislike it. I'm objecting to your claim that people dislike it simply because it was "changed from the books". No. I dislike it because they are bad writing. And I know plenty of people who's never read the books that have similar complaints about the parts I mentioned, because they thought it was bad, not because they object to the changes from a book they never read.

 

[Brakke]

So, if Dany is stabbed and killed, and brought back by a WW as a wight, would she still be fireproof, and therefore unkillable?

We a comic book thread now?

 

[A Human Becoming]

Just read the episode description on Wikipedia. How many times is Dany going to be portrayed as a messianic figure? It's like they keep building this up and there's never any payoff. Is she ever going to get to Westeros?

That's where I see her the last two seasons. Remember, her story started with Viserys marrying her to Khal Drogo for a Dothraki army. She now has that army to sail for Westeros. Well, when the Iron Fleet arrives anyway.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Best episode of the season but man the writing is just bad at times. Littlefinger explaining the Sansa thing to Sweet Robin, Davos suddenly remembering to ask again about Shireen/return to doubting Melisandre, Jon needing to be convinced to save his little brother (10 minutes after he said "If I don't protect you (Sansa), father's ghost will haunt me." So that doesn't apply to Rickon?). The Iron Isles scene was weak as well. I just didn't feel the dramatic tension.

Don't get me started on Dany burning down the place in 1 minute as if gasoline was on the floor.

 

[duckroll]

We a comic book thread now?

 

[Baldwin_the_First]

Best episode of the season but man the writing is just bad at times. Littlefinger explaining the Sansa thing to Sweet Robin, Davos suddenly remembering to ask again about Shireen/return to doubting Melisandre, Jon needing to be convinced to save his little brother (10 minutes after he said "If I don't protect you (Sansa), father's ghost will haunt me." So that doesn't apply to Rickon?). The Iron Isles scene was weak as well. I just didn't feel the dramatic tension.

Don't get me started on Dany burning down the place in 1 minute as if gasoline was on the floor.

He didn't need convincing to save Rickon, pretty sure he was ready to go save him before sansa opened her mouth. He needed convincing when it was only about capturing Winterfell back before reading the letter.

 

[Qurupeke]

Did they just tease Brienne and Tormund... What they hell is going on?

Anyway, okay episode. Last scene was cool, the dragon should have returned for maximum awesomeness.

 

[void666]

Best episode of the season but man the writing is just bad at times. Littlefinger explaining the Sansa thing to Sweet Robin, Davos suddenly remembering to ask again about Shireen/return to doubting Melisandre, Jon needing to be convinced to save his little brother (10 minutes after he said "If I don't protect you (Sansa), father's ghost will haunt me." So that doesn't apply to Rickon?). The Iron Isles scene was weak as well. I just didn't feel the dramatic tension.

Don't get me started on Dany burning down the place in 1 minute as if gasoline was on the floor.

Maybe it was. Daario and Jorah must've rigged the place.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Don't get me started on Dany burning down the place in 1 minute as if gasoline was on the floor.

Oil was spilled from the fallen braziers.

Maybe it was. Daario and Jorah must've rigged the place.

I think they locked the door and killed the guards.

Did they just tease Brienne and Tormund... What they hell is going on?

Brilliance

 

[RedShift]

Jesus Christ.

I'm trying to catch up, watching episode 1 of season 6.

They really decided to double down on the stupid sand snakes plot didn't they.

I mean wow.

 

[The Elite]

Jesus Christ.

I'm trying to catch up, watching episode 1 of season 6.

They really decided to double down on the stupid sand snakes plot didn't they.

I mean wow.

Don't worry about it.

 

[mantidor]

That's the thing, as a show watcher I don't have an inherent problem with any of those changes, aside from Dorne being horrible which I thought was the same in the books. The show has real life constraints so the shortcuts are perfectly reasonable to me. Not always well executed, but at least reasonable. I was not down for fArya which is the dumbest idea ever to me.

As a show only watched fArya makes all the sense to me? Why do you think it doesn't work?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Well, that was pretty good.

I liked the Dany stuff. Sure, it's a bit cheesy, but it's in line with most of her stuff in the show. Her burning the Khals was what I hoped for and much better than the alternatives (her being saved by Daario and Lord Friendzone or by Deus ex Draco). After all the shit women have taken in this show, I'm glad they framed it as a bit of a glorious feminist revolution. Long Live the Sisterhood.

Osha being killed was a waste. At least we got the "Then I've seen worse line" (nice little reference to the Skagos stuff in the book) and badass delivery of that line.

The Wall was amazing. Seeing Sansa finally take charge was great. The awkwardness between Briennne and Davos/Melisandre was great. I'm a firm adherent of #Briaime in the books, but please bring #Briemund on. I didn't know how much I wanted it until I saw it.

It was nice to see Tyrion doing some politicking. But I don't know, the scenes in Mereen still fall pretty flat for me. The imaginary languages and stuff makes it feel really cheesy.

Reunion between Theon and Yara was good. The actors sold it well for me. I'm interested to see where they go from here with the Kingsmoot stuff. Maybe Theon will sub in for Victarion as Euron's bitch (I don't think he will live much longer in the books, where I have a feeling that he will get burned pretty soon, not having read any of the sample chapters.)

It was nice to see a Littlefinger scene that didn't make me roll my eyes. It's fun to see him manipulating Robin.

King's Landing was great. It's obvious that The High Sparrow set the Lannisters up. But the way they are doing it, Cersei can make the Tyrells take the blame. Or give them an opening for a coup. Very exciting!

 

[hipsterpants]

Just read the episode description on Wikipedia. How many times is Dany going to be portrayed as a messianic figure? It's like they keep building this up and there's never any payoff. Is she ever going to get to Westeros?

The impression I got from the books (assuming it was GRRM's intention and not that he had no idea what to do with her for 1000 pages) is that Dany is a fantastic conqueror but a shit ruler. She basically tries to force Meereen to conform to her views (and fails), which is what I imagine she would do if she ever sat the Iron Throne of Westeros. She's all high and mighty about her titles and birthright but it a terrible ruler.

 

[duckroll]

Did they just tease Brienne and Tormund... What they hell is going on?

The bear and the maiden fair.

 

[Jayof9s]

Like, there's poetic justice to punish Cercei for sleeping around by making her march naked. But lying about your brother being gay? That just doesn't make sense. My money is on either Cercei or Tommen lying about that to summon Tyrell forces. Seems much more plausible.

I don't know, his whole speech about the trappings of wealth, i.e. clothes and shoes hiding the 'true' person, sort of sets it up. As in, he doesn't think someone starts down the path of atonement until they give all that up.

That said, I sort of doubt he'd make any guys walk naked down the streets, so maybe it's just his fetish regardless of how he justifies it.

On another note, I am excited to see everything go badly when the Tyrell army shows up.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

The impression I got from the books (assuming it was GRRM's intention and not that he had no idea what to do with her for 1000 pages) is that Dany is a fantastic conqueror but a shit ruler. She basically tries to force Meereen to conform to her views (and fails), which is what I imagine she would do if she ever sat the Iron Throne of Westeros. She's all high and mighty about her titles and birthright but it a terrible ruler.

Her her drive was revenge and conquest. Being thrust into power has dulled her. She needed to hit a low and be reminded what her goal always was.

Like I dreaded dany chapters in DoD, but goddamn if it didn't make the pit scene so much sweeter.

 

[whitemex88]

It's all Emilia Clarke. There's an interview from today after the episode airs that she did saying it's all her.

whoa! i thought we were done seeing her naked.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

A lot of posts go in depth on why decisions made on the show don't work. This thread isn't just "That sucks!" over and over again. It's "That sucks because..." (when things do suck). Like Talisa. That sucked because it destroyed Robb's character. In the books, he was a clone of Ned Stark. He was so noble that he didn't realize when his actions were hurting him and his family, all he cared about was honor. And that's what Robb did. He forsakened his campaign because he didn't want to dishonor this woman who cared for him after battle. The book makes Robb's downfall a part of the personalty we already knew he had. His honor was used against him.

Talisa was Robb being an idiot who doesn't understand how politics works. He choose to break his vow despite the warnings of Cat and with full knowledge of the consequences. He wasn't worried about honor, he was worried about getting that sweet tail. That's a fundamental change that undermines Robb as a character and Cat and Ned as parents. It doesn't make any sense, either, given that he was a mini-Ned before that decision.

To be fair, we never saw inside book-Robb's head. It's very easy being mini-Ned when doing so allows you to keep hitting that sweet tail. Also, my impression was that he felt a bit suffocated by his mother taking too large a part of determining his affairs. Going against the marriage she had arranged for him might have been a part of getting a little teen rebellion going.

 

[Gigglepoo]

That said, I sort of doubt he'd make any guys walk naked down the streets, so maybe it's just his fetish regardless of how he justifies it.

They pulled the High Septon from a brothel last season and made him march naked down the streets. Again, he committed a sex "crime" and was punished using sexuality against him. It makes sense.

To be fair, we never saw inside book-Robb's head. It's very easy being mini-Ned when doing so allows you to keep hitting that sweet tail. Also, my impression was that he felt a bit suffocated by his mother taking too large a part of determining his affairs. Going against the marriage she had arranged for him might have been a part of getting a little teen rebellion going.

Jeyne wasn't, as Jamie said, a beauty to lose a kingdom for. She was just a girl who took care of him. It was setup that he was marrying her for honor (her honor) and that's exactly something that Ned would have done. Or at least something that Robb thinks Ned would have done. Remember, Robb thinks Ned was so honorable he brought his bastard to Winterfell.

 

[kinoki]

I'm beginning to think it's just lazy writing that they're killing off the minor characters. It seems like they know they can't resolve their arcs so they'll just kill them off. Really disappointing. In that regard, this episode didn't disappoint either.

 

[Qurupeke]

The bear and the maiden fair.

I'm speechless. Touché.

 

[Jayof9s]

They pulled the High Septon from a brothel last season and made him march naked down the streets. Again, he committed a sex "crime" and was punished using sexuality against him. It makes sense.

Fair enough, I forgot that part really. Don't recall him being completely naked but I barely remember the whole scene and would have to rewatch.

But again, I think it's more of exposing the true person than based on the type of crime. As he explained when talking about all his friends after the party; he saw their true selves when they were naked and passed out on the floor out of their expensive clothes and shoes. At least I could see that being somewhat justifying it. But it would be a whole lot more fitting if she was accused of the same things as in the books, which is to say having sex with all the guys that weren't her husband.

I was expecting Loras to be in a lot worse shape (physically) than he was in. I half thought -they'd have him strapped up and whipped like they had done with what's-his-face that co-conspired with Cersei in the books.

 

[Brakke]

Jeyne wasn't, as Jamie said, a beauty to lose a kingdom for. She was just a girl who took care of him. It was setup that he was marrying her for honor (her honor) and that's exactly something that Ned would have done. Or at least something that Robb thinks Ned would have done. Remember, Robb thinks Ned was so honorable he brought his bastard to Winterfell.

This angle is not persuasive. There's nothing inherently noble in marrying a nurse. Book-Robb broke the marriage pact because he was a horny teen tryna get his dick wet, just the same as Show-Robb. At least Talisa had some bite and fire, unlike Playne Jeyne the boring, subservient idiot doofus. Talisa was probably the first non-family-member chick that Robb ever met who didn't totally fawn over him.

 

[Blue Ninja]

It's all Emilia Clarke. There's an interview from today after the episode airs that she did saying it's all her.

God bless her.

 

[Gigglepoo]

But again, I think it's more of exposing the true person than based on the type of crime. As he explained when talking about all his friends after the party; he saw their true selves when they were naked and passed out on the floor out of their expensive clothes and shoes. At least I could see that being somewhat justifying it. But it would be a whole lot more fitting if she was accused of the same things as in the books, which is to say having sex with all the guys that weren't her husband.

That makes sense. I just think it'd be more interesting if Tommen or Cercei were lying to force the Tyrell's hand. I just can't imagine the High Sparrow saying, "I'm going to make your wife march naked through the streets." The High Sparrow certainly has a plan but I don't think it's to make every hot women in King's Landing walk naked.

This angle is not persuasive. There's nothing inherently noble in marrying a nurse. Book-Robb broke the marriage pact because he was a horny teen tryna get his dick wet, just the same as Show-Robb. At least Talisa had some bite and fire, unlike Playne Jeyne the boring, subservient idiot doofus. Talisa was probably the first non-family-member chick that Robb ever met who didn't totally fawn over him.

Robb wasn't being noble by marrying a nurse. He was being noble by marrying a women that he had sex with (soiling her honor). He already got his dick wet. But, because he was the son of honorable Ned, he married that woman instead of just leaving her behind like so many other kings and lords would have.

Robb could have had as much sex as he could stand and it wouldn't have upset the Freys or destroyed the marriage pact. It was marrying Jeyne that was a problem, and he did that because he was honorable and stupid like his dad.

 

[Ithil]

I was thinking. If they wanted to cut Dorne from the show, why not just have Doran kill or imprison the Sand Snakes? Then have a scene where Trystane mourns Myrcella, and then returns to Dorne, as there's nothing for him in King's Landing now. Then just have Doran continue to be passive toward KL and that's that. No need to have more scenes in Dorne, as they're not going to do Aegon anyway.

Doran imprisoning the Sand Snakes after their plot relating to Myrcella would fit with the books, and make much more sense. Instead you have teleporting Sand Snakes wiping the Martell line out of existence as vengeance for the deaths of Oberyn and Elia Martell.

I just can't understand it. I'm willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt that they considered this, but had some overriding reason not to do it that I can't see, though. edit: Although I suppose Ellaria still wants war with the Lannisters. I wonder if that's still going to happen or not.

The most obvious reason is that Dorne still has a role to play later, and this is setting up that.

 

[Last Hearth]

That makes sense. I just think it'd be more interesting if Tommen or Cercei were lying to force the Tyrell's hand. I just can't imagine the High Sparrow saying, "I'm going to make your wife march naked through the streets." The High Sparrow certainly has a plan but I don't think it's to make every hot women in King's Landing walk naked.



Robb wasn't being noble by marrying a nurse. He was being noble by marrying a women that he had sex with (soiling her honor). He already got his dick wet. But, because he was the son of honorable Ned, he married that woman instead of just leaving her behind like so many other kings and lords would have.

Robb could have had as much sex as he could stand and it wouldn't have upset the Freys or destroyed the marriage pact. It was marrying Jeyne that was a problem, and he did that because he was honorable and stupid like his dad.

Actually it was not about honor, it was about compassion. Robb dishonored himself by breaking his word to the Freys. He chose to dishonor himself, in order to not dishonor Jeyne.

 

[Jayof9s]

That makes sense. I just think it'd be more interesting if Tommen or Cercei were lying to force the Tyrell's hand. I just can't imagine the High Sparrow saying, "I'm going to make your wife march naked through the streets." The High Sparrow certainly has a plan but I don't think it's to make every hot women in King's Landing walk naked.

I mean, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that someone was lying, though I'd honestly be surprised if it was Tommen. It does seem weird that the high sparrow would have told him that.

I could definitely see it being a move by Cersei, it just seems like too much forethought for her. The Tyrells are in for a bad time regardless of how this goes. They move against the church and at best succeed in capturing/killing the High Sparrow and saving Loras and Margery. However, they're still painted as evil for attacking the church and could be dealing with an uprising.

At worst? Something happens to Margery and/or Loras and/or they aren't able to save them AND they fail to capture the Sparrow and they still stuck dealing with an uprising, led by the High Sparrow and with their heir and the Queen as prisoners.

It could significantly weaken the Tyrells and force them out of the city. In general it seems too well thought out for Cersei so I'm guessing there is someway that it will come back to bite her in the ass in the end.

 

[Speevy]

Is Littlefinger just banking on how crazy Robin is? That scene was hilarious.

 

[Apt101]

Is Littlefinger just banking on how crazy Robin is? That scene was hilarious.

He's manipulating him. One could argue that he has made him so weak.

 

[JeffZero]

Basically, JONSA 2016.

The rest of the season could be Pycelle slow-rolling wayward of Cersei and I'd be satisfied.

 

[Brazil]

I'm so done with Daenerys Christ, God. I can't wait 'til an ice zombie dragon rips her head off.

Basically, JONSA 2016.

The rest of the season could be Pycelle slow-rolling wayward of Cersei and I'd be satisfied.

The fact that Pycelle's still alive in the show pisses me off to no end. He's such a stupid character past the first book, when you still think his little political games actually matter.

I'm guessing they'll have Varys' Qyburn's little birds put an end to him close to the season finale.

 

[JeffZero]

The fact that Pycelle's still alive in the show pisses me off to no end.

I'm guessing they'll have Varys' Qyburn's little birds put an end to him close to the season finale.

I wrongly predicted Pycelle would kick it in the third episode. Then I figured this week for sure.

I'm loving this season so far, but it's strange how numerous characters are popping up and then dying posthaste whilst Pycelle keeps getting you're-going-to-die-soon-old-man sorts of moments but he keeps waddling off into the sunset.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Basically, JONSA 2016.

The rest of the season could be Pycelle slow-rolling wayward of Cersei and I'd be satisfied.

Yup, and not even in an ironically "lol they should hook up" kind of way.

Like, just the two most distant Stark children taking the North back themselves. So fucking great.

 

[Paganmoon]

At this point, they're going to bring back Edmure, Gendry and hell probably even Benjen, just to have them killed by Ramsay, I mean wtf was the point?

 

[JeffZero]

Yup, and not even in an ironically "lol they should hook up" kind of way.

Like, just the two most distant Stark children taking the North back themselves. So fuckin ggreat.

Yesss.

At this point, they're going to bring back Edmure, Gendry and hell probably even Benjen, just to have them killed by Ramsay, I mean wtf was the point?

Just scene after scene of various men bringing Ramsay gifts. The Blackfish won't kneel, but he's brought his blasted nephew so Ramsay can do as he please. Tobho Mott finds Gendry at sea, won't kneel, but he's brought his former apprentice so Ramsay can do as he please. Coldhands won't ever, ever appear in the series, but he is Benjen Stark anyway, and he won't kneel, but he's brought himself so Ramsay can do as he please.

 

[Tiktaalik]

The most obvious reason is that Dorne still has a role to play later, and this is setting up that.

On the latest Boiled Leather Audio Hour about the just released Winds of Winter Arianne Chapter, Stefan Sasse floats the notion that there are a few large, intact armies around, Dorne, The Reach, and the Vale and it is somewhat unsatisfying to imagine these massive armies confronting the Others in some absurdly epic battle. The tension rises if these armies don't exist, and so the point of events in the immediate future may be to whittle these armies down. This might be the narrative reason for the Golden Company invading Westeros, to draw The Reach and Dorne into some pointless conflict that reduces their numbers and creates instability in the South. This idea feels pretty satisfying to me.

I don't like how the Dorne storyline has been handled and I struggle to explain the foolish actions of the Sand Snakes going on in Dorne. If GRRM's high level direction to the Showrunners is that the Tyrells and Martells make poor decisions and engage themselves in pointless conflicts that result in weakened positions, then Dorne seems on track to be accomplishing that goal.

 

[kazinova]

Had a conversation about this last night. I think they saw the popularity of Joff and thought "well, since the audience liked this brand of evil, let's use this other character and double down!"

This kind of pandering isn't exclusive to the villains, one named character dies per episode now.

The whole "no weak men will rule Dorne" Sand Snakes takeover is a reaction to fans support of the "totally bad-ass" women of Dorne. **wretch**

Basically all their bad decisions are the fan-service stuff. They need to strike out from ASOIAF and do their own thing, cool, I get that. But actually have vision about it, don't fall into a formula because it's what people want to see.

 

[JustSomeone]

Even Tyrion can no longer save this show.
What a godawful episode.
At least the King's Landing storyline is intersting.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

I'm beginning to think it's just lazy writing that they're killing off the minor characters. It seems like they know they can't resolve their arcs so they'll just kill them off. Really disappointing. In that regard, this episode didn't disappoint either.

If their fates are the same in the books will you still think that?

 

[JeffZero]

Even Tyrion can no longer save this show.
What a godawful episode.
At least the King's Landing storyline is intersting.

Curiously, I feel almost completely the opposite. Tyrion's Meereen content is not that good, but King's Landing has, overall, been the slog for me thus far this year.

Everything else has been fantastic IMO. o.o

 

[Qurupeke]

At this point, they're going to bring back Edmure, Gendry and hell probably even Benjen, just to have them killed by Ramsay, I mean wtf was the point?

Please bring back Hot Pie.

 

[CassSept]

I don't think this episode was that bad and on the whole I feel like this season is much better than season 5. Mostly because it really feels like they are zeroing in on the endgame while the last season for most of the time felt like it was meandering somewhere between being past the book, drawing out plots and not really ready to move the story forward.


That final scene was hilarious though, I burst out laughing when Daenerys knocked over the brazier and the camera made that idiotic swerve and zoom on her angry face. She didn't sell it at all, it was ridiculous.

 

[JeffZero]

Please bring back Hot Pie.

Oh gawd, I can just hear Ramsay turning Hot Pie's rant about how to make good kidney pie into something sadistic.

 

[jett]

It's interesting how this is the first GoT season where the "NO BOOKS" thread has actually surpassed this one in posts. Book readers abandoning ship?

 

[Vespene]

Ramsay's letter to Jon sounded like a Trump Twitter rant.

 

[Faddy]

Changing from the books is not necessarily bad, it's what they changed it into that are frequently bad.

Talisa was bad, Sansa marrying Ramsay is bad, teleporting LF is bad, Ramsay the Villain Sue is bad, Dorne is bad, need I go on?

Somebody should make a web series "The Travel Diary of Petyr Baelish" so people would shut up about teleporting.

Characters can travel places without the need to have their itineraries shown to the audience, especially non-major characters like Littlefinger. You know what happens when you add in every little travelogue you end up with 2 books and 15 years of no plot.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Looking back at Tormund eyeballing Brienne which was pretty hilarious and would fully support. It's like beauty and the beast GoT edition

 

[Veritigo_X]

Please bring back Hot Pie.

"Hot Pie? How do I know that is Hot Pie?"

*brings out the Direwolf bread's head*