But the show kills the main characters. Ned was important. Robb won every battle. They died and stayed dead. Why does Jon matter so much that Davos, who hates black magic, begged Mel to bring him back?
*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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But the show kills the main characters. Ned was important. Robb won every battle. They died and stayed dead. Why does Jon matter so much that Davos, who hates black magic, begged Mel to bring him back?
Jon got lucky due to plot armor/circumstance (and was probably the only thing preventing a war with the wildling army.)
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Because he just is. That's just storytelling and plot armor. He was set up to fall after rising so high like so many others. Now he is looking for his purpose. Whether that sits well with you will only be determined by where he goes from here.
Because Ned and Robb made mistakes, they weren't killed just because they were main characters.
The show portrays poorly Davos' motivation but it's not some crazy reach to know why he would want Jon revived.
Jon made mistakes, too. It feels like they hand waved Jon's importance because he's needed later on without establishing why. Really cheap storytelling. There better be a great reason he had to die or it's going to seem even more ridiculous moving forward.
And it is a reach that Davos went from hating black magic to begging Mel to use black magic to revive Jon. That's a huge leap.
Jon's fatal flaw is that he has a kind heart and wants to do the right thing.
He doesn't die in a way that paves the way for another character to succeed, nor does he resolve his own arc.
Jon and Sam are the only two characters who know enough to fight the whitewalkers, and Ramsay has Jon's home. Come and see.
Robb Stark died in a way that was traceable to how he and his mother dealt with their political situation, and how Robb was his father's son. It's a tragic yet thematically satisfying death, where Jon just dies without any wheels turning at all. He needs to come back.
He doesn't die in a way that paves the way for another character to succeed, nor does he resolve his own arc.
Jon and Sam are the only two characters who know enough to fight the whitewalkers, and Ramsay has Jon's home. Come and see.
Robb Stark died in a way that was traceable to how he and his mother dealt with their political situation, and how Robb was his father's son. It's a tragic yet thematically satisfying death, where Jon just dies without any wheels turning at all. He needs to come back.
Cpt.Underpants
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Tormund and Brienne tribute from r/asoiaf
You're explaining why the writers want Jon back, not the other characters.
Davos Seaworth is in love with him.
But he's not in love with Stannis.
Steelyuhas
Member
Stannis was too withholding of affection.
Poimandres
Member
Well, you have the whole breaking his vow thing which is convenient for the writers, and I think it's likely there's some sort of magical implications to being dead/revived that will come into play somewhere down the line. Was there any prophecy stuff in the books that made it necessary? It's been a while since I read so I don't remember.
But, for the people who believe in Jon I understand why they would feel that they "need" him. He's talking up the big picture with an impending apocalyptic zombie invasion. No other character has been as outspoken or proactive about that cause, so it's a bit of a "we need Jon or we're all fucked" kind of situation for those that are concerned about the bigger picture.
He has an army of 2000 now, going on his way to negotiate with more Northern houses to conquer back Winterfell, which will gain him even more people. He could basically unite the entire North by the end of the season, something he couldn't have done as a man of the Night's Watch. Being released from his vows is what will allow this to happen.
Jon pledged his life to the NW and wall, he wasn't going to give that vow up. Breaking an oath by rooting a woman or leading a force to save Arya and then heading back to the wall to resume his position is not the same as giving up the life and fight and deserting his brothers. That's what dying changed, they're not his 'brothers' anymore, they killed him, he technically and thematically doesn't belong there now.
Logic was suspended as Davos inexplicably became a campaigner for random resurrections. There are no answers on that front. With the resurrection done with his normal character was resumed last episode.
As for why he can be magically resurrected, I hold out in the belief there's more to come on that, and how.
Logic was suspended as Davos inexplicably became a campaigner for random resurrections. There are no answers on that front. With the resurrection done with his normal character was resumed last episode.
As for why he can be magically resurrected, I hold out in the belief there's more to come on that, and how.
Jon didn't break his vow by boning down with Ygritte. No wives, no children. Sam pointing out the loophole is a thing in the book at least.
Anyway, a character who has to carry the weight of his brothers *literally murdering him* is a novel thing. Jon's little detour to death was worth it just for that. Also the show was just giving the non-readers one of the classic experiences of the books: ie totally not believing that Jon could be dead.
Anyway, a character who has to carry the weight of his brothers *literally murdering him* is a novel thing. Jon's little detour to death was worth it just for that. Also the show was just giving the non-readers one of the classic experiences of the books: ie totally not believing that Jon could be dead.
Also his and Dany's legends will grow via resurrection myths. They're in parallel anyway - banished to north and south respectively and both stalled by evils at the ends of the earth. Politically a marriage between them would trump every other claim.
What mistakes?
If we are talking about how the resurrection seems nonsense in the show I agree, but its like Dany burning the hut with some lame lamps, is just to move things forward. In the book I'm like 90% sure it will be Shireen being sacrificed to resurrect him, the situation is so different from the show it really can be anything though.
Davos giving into black magic in the show goes unexplained and it sucks, but we can guess he knows about the White Walkers and he now has second thoughts about this magic, as I said it's not some huge stretch or anything, what's at stake has completely changed after Hardhome and the people at Castle Black know about it.
North and east my good ser
Steelyuhas
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-Pyromaniac-
Member
I hope Jon and Dany don't meet in like the third last episode of the series. I want to see them interact for a short while at least. See what develops.
If that is indeed what's going on here.
If that is indeed what's going on here.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
But...Jon also died in a way that was traceable to how he dealt with his political situation. He sent his most loyal friends away, he pushed too far with the wildling policy without effectively making the case to his brothers, and then he outright broke his vows by declaring his intention to mettle with the political realm of the north.
AFFC/ADWD are largely focused on the political decisions of Jon, Dany, and Cersei. All three "fail" at ruling to one degree or another. Jon's failure is probably the most surprising given that he's perhaps the best trained leader/rule of the three. Yet he uses Ned's advice as a buffet in Dance, taking some and leaving others. He passes the test when it comes to military decisions and alliances, from his advice to Stannis to his brilliant negotiation with the Iron Bank. But he fails on a human level by not keeping his allies close and not properly taking a measure of the anger among the NW's leadership. Just as Robb failed to take a measure of Roose Bolton, Jon failed to take a measure of his commanders; and of course sending his closest friends away robbed him of the ability to perhaps even spy on the commanders.
Bringing the wildings across without properly explaining why to his brothers. His assassination makes even more sense in the books (pink letter) but it's totally understandable on the show as well.
Pretty egregious mistake.
BTW -- I love all three political machinations on the show and in the books.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I'd argue his assassination doesn't make much sense in the show actually. In the show there is no pink letter in S5, meaning the motive is entirely based on Jon's wildling decision. Why did Thorne let Jon through the Wall with the wildlings, and how come there was zero follow up on the decision? It's not like a brother of the NW got killed by a wildling during a fight, or there was some level of unrest. To the contrary things seem to be going pretty smoothly.
Also: at least in Dance it's done during a major commotion, while a large portion of wildlings are in another area (the Shield Hall). Marsh could play it off or perhaps even blame the wildlings for the attack.
I thought he did explain that he didn't want to add numbers to the army of the dead? Even if he didn't out right say it. The rundown of what happened at Hardhome should have been enough to convince the brothers he was doing the right thing.
Racism. It's not perfect on the show but I understand it. Thorne obeyed the commander but as he talked and brewed and bitched he decided Jon was wrong. I get it. It's obviously better in the books but there's at least a logic to their betrayal in the show.
Old grudges run deep and not everyone was at Hardhome. Olly's parents were killed in front of him and the Then said he was going to eat them! Jon just assumed people would be happy and that was poor leadership.
Even if they weren't at Hardhome they know how it works when it comes to The Others. You got to be able to put 2 and 2 together. With the threat of the The Others and Wights(sp?) Jon's decision can't be counted as a mistake, IMO.
Thorne and Olly were blinded by hate and convinced a few others to join their side plain and simple.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
So many people believe Robert was Jon's father and it's not just show watchers either... I don't get it.
You guys are forgetting that Jon Snow's "brothers" are rapists, thieves, murderers among other crimes..
Not all of them are Edd, Giant Slayer dude and guy who was forced into admitting a crime he didnt do.
Just spineless follower dudes who are trying to keep living and will attach themselves to who they think is the power player at the time
The Night's Watch is pretty particular about who becomes a ranger. The brothers who weren't at Hardhome would have probably legged it/died a pitiful death if they were there and still kill Jon Snow.
Not all of them are Edd, Giant Slayer dude and guy who was forced into admitting a crime he didnt do.
Just spineless follower dudes who are trying to keep living and will attach themselves to who they think is the power player at the time
The Night's Watch is pretty particular about who becomes a ranger. The brothers who weren't at Hardhome would have probably legged it/died a pitiful death if they were there and still kill Jon Snow.
Steelyuhas
Member
It's no accident that the actions of the brothers at Castle Black aren't exactly what you would call smart decisions.
Yeah. Ned wouldn't have felt the need to keep it a secret if that was the case. Robert would gladly embrace his and Lyanna's son. Probably could have saved him, psychologically.
Cornballer
Member
That's a pretty common sentiment, but I wonder if the fanbase will still be saying the same thing if Jon allies with the Freys or something similar for the sake of defeating the Others.
That kind of mindset happens all the time. It's why D&D really hammered home how awful Olly's situation was with the Wildings. We could empathize through him. It's easy for us to say "There's a worse enemy out there!" but Olly knows from experience that the Wildings will eat your family given half a chance. How could anyone be worse than that?
Blue Ninja
Member
A good leader can't make everyone happy. Jon had perfectly sound reasoning for doing what he did, but team Thorne wouldn't listen regardless. Jon's only failure is not recognizing the brewing betrayal until it was too late.
Liquid Helium
Member
Has there been any discussion on how Astapor and the masters maybe aren't the ones funding the sons of the harpy? When Varys is interrogating the lady who supposedly tells him, the scene cuts before she actually does, I don't know why you would film it that way unless she told Varys something different. And in the latest episode the masters say they aren't funding them and Tyrion plays it off, but them saying that and us not actually hearing the lady tell Varys makes me think they aren't. I don't understand why Varys would lie or what is going to happen but that's how I read the scenes.
Missandei is behind the Sons of the Harpy. I really believe the master when her said they weren't behind the rebellion.
I do like how they cut away from Varys' scene and Tommen telling Cercei the High Sparrow's secret. It's a cheap device to obscure information but it's effective.
I do like how they cut away from Varys' scene and Tommen telling Cercei the High Sparrow's secret. It's a cheap device to obscure information but it's effective.
But the masters agreed to stop the Sons. So even if they aren't responsible for them, they're incentivized to stop them all the same. Tyrion's probably happy with the outcome either way.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
she could be playing him.
higgsboson1997
Member
John Dunbar
correct about everything
rehash from season one. but at least it wasn't quite as ridiculous as a bunch of slavers handing an army of mindless slaves to her within their own city and then expecting her to just go her merry way (something that was just as silly in the books).
higgsboson1997
Member
It was a rehash from season 1 in terms of the event itself, but in this one Dany was actually being proactive. In season 1 it was kind of an instinctive thing from which she lucked out - here, she took advantage of a quality she knew she possessed to get a result she wanted. This is the first time she has done that on her own, with no help from her dragons.
Clearly not. Because apparently he only heard of Stannis and Shireen's deaths when Brienne told him last episode, instead of asking Mel about them when she arrived at Castle Black last season.
I was too busy with how little sense her plan made to be thinking of it as Dany's GOAT moment. Like, how the hell did she know that hut would burn so easily? And if Jorah and Daario helped her set it up, what the hell was her plan for escape before she ran into them? Also, she was incredibly lucky she wasn't hit on the head by a piece of burning wood, which would have instantly killed her, fire immunity or not.
higgsboson1997
Member
She did not have a plan to escape before she ran into them - it is clear from the dialogue in the scene she meets Jorah and Daario. She had the inkling of an idea - that the entire hut is made of wood, and if she burned it down all would perish but she could make it out unscathed - but she wasn't sure she would be able to carry it out. Jorah and Daario's arrival helped her bring her plan to fruition - it is clear they helped her set everything up.
As for Davos, he knows about what happened to Stannis/Shireen obviously - he just doesn't know the manner in which it happens. It is clear Melisandre has been withholding the specifics from him.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Said it earlier in the thread, seriously nothing she does seems well thought at all. It's honestly kinda infuriating how she's had so many little magical over the top moments that seem to come through sheer force of will than anything resembling a plan or skill.
higgsboson1997
Member
Like I said, this was clearly planned, but only after she found Jorah and Daario - she had been mulling it over before but had no way to execute it until she got their help. The plan itself was very solid. In fact, this is the first time where she actually planned something that didn't involve her dragons.
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