InfiniteBento
Member
I get the feeling people will start dropping like flies towards the end of the season. :<
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
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I get the feeling people will start dropping like flies towards the end of the season. :<
Last Hearth
Member
So a transcript of the Aeron chapter is out.
https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/
https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/
Napalm_Frank
Member
Does George always drop shitton of chapters before the book releases?
this is probably 'well I know I won't be done for another 3 years at least so time to throw them a bone'
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Yes. We knew several chapters before ADWD was released.
I've been tyring not to think about this too much because... well, the obvious Dorne associations. But fuck it.
Myrcella was murdered and Jaime / Cersei basically forgot about her. The show did their requisite scene with death rocks on the eyes and then promptly swept it all under the rug. C & J forgot who did it and forgot to give fucks. As her biological parents, that's fucking dumb.
I don't blame the writing team for needing and wanting to move on from Dorne, because that was a disaster, but the whole of that murder, and the aftermath, is some sloppy ass storytelling. A few seasons before when their other child was murdered (Joff) Cersei made sure there was a big trial, then the plot swooped in to deliver a gruesome trial by combat and the dramatic escape of a major character (who was also their brother). If you're going to be a show built on a lot of scenes involving vengeful, murdering, scheming power players, at least be fucking internally consistent. The repercussions and ripple effect among the surviving characters was just non-existent. We didn't get to spend much time with Myrcella, and that's fine, but we should be made to feel Jaime and Cersei felt WAY more about her death, on a level that was somewhere in the ballpark of of what happens when someone does harm or threatens their other children.
Yeesh.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Supper awkward
Vire
Member
Could be seen as a bit cynical, but Myrcella was seen as a lot less important to them because she didn't have any power and didn't help further the name of the lannisters. Having your child who also just so happens to be the King and ruler of the Iron Throne die is slightly more devastating if you are a power hungry maniac like Cersei.
I don't think it's that Cersei forgot about Myrcella, it's just that she is powerless to do anything at the moment. Rewatch episode 3 of this season - she, Jaime and Robert Strong barge into the small council meeting demanding action with Dorne and are completely shut down by Kevan and the Tyrells.
bitbydeath
Member
So about Bran's arc.
This buildup in both Book and Show doesn't look to be so he can beat old Nan at telling tales.
In the books Bran somewhat interacted with his father (Ned) while he was praying in the Godswood.
In the show he has not only done the same with young Ned at the Tower of Joy but also got the Nights Kings attention and of course afflicted Young Wylis with a case of the Hodor's.
And this is all with still being unable to control his power properly.
In short, I expect he will start changing past events, and one of the first will probably be him getting his legs back by either pausing Jaime or even stop himself from climbing that day.
This buildup in both Book and Show doesn't look to be so he can beat old Nan at telling tales.
In the books Bran somewhat interacted with his father (Ned) while he was praying in the Godswood.
In the show he has not only done the same with young Ned at the Tower of Joy but also got the Nights Kings attention and of course afflicted Young Wylis with a case of the Hodor's.
And this is all with still being unable to control his power properly.
In short, I expect he will start changing past events, and one of the first will probably be him getting his legs back by either pausing Jaime or even stop himself from climbing that day.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Yup.
If she survives her current predicament, she'll be going for revenge
Nah. What happened always happened. He won't be able to change anything which we already know always happened.
As I said in my post, it just does not feel internally consistent at all. The show has made it clear at numerous junctures since the beginning that Cersei is protective of her "cubs". Just calling bullshit on that.
I'll be happy to see some revenge plotline play out in the future, but it seems incredibly unlikely. They've moved focus to Tommen.
Vire
Member
That's not how his powers work or are represented, he doesn't change current events that have already happened, he just is the reason for the way they are.
What you described would open up a horrible can of worms because then you could just say, well, why doesn't Bran just travel back to the the scene of the Children of the Forest and prevent The White Walkers from ever being created in the first place.
Red Arremer
Member
From the new TWOW Aeron chapter:
Show Westeros seems like a parody at this point.
Not even you would dare, said the Damphair. I am your brother. No man is more cursed than the kinslayer.
Show Westeros seems like a parody at this point.
hydrophilic attack
Member
GRRM throwing shade with these sample chapters
He can't change anything that hasn't already been changed.
We're operating on the closed loop theory.
The ink is dry, the past is written etc etc
How so?
Anton Sugar
Member
Character* knows the king was killed by family member: *shrugs*
*Damphair, Dorne's kingsguard, Bolton's guard
The show has clearly started to cut the fat and up the pace at the expense of some previously established logic. I think most people would agree that it's for the better. No one gives a shit about Dorne or Myrcella, so the writers took the axe to them for the sake of the show. When you're six seasons into a world this expansive and recovering from the relative clusterfuck of the last two, bouncing back requires some triage. Expect more of this sort of thing.
Fine by me. I enjoy the show more at this point knowing that it's diverged so far that I can watch and still have the books to look forward to.
bitbydeath
Member
So Ned only heard just wind,
Bran always had the Night Kings mark on his arm and Wylis got traumatised by his own visions of his grimm death?
Euron's answer:
“And yet, I wear a crown, and you rot in chains. How is it that your Drowned God allows that, when I have killed three brothers?”
Yeah GRRM seems real upset.
Red Arremer
Member
The books so heavily drive home how much of a sin kinslaying is. The tale of the rat cook. Rickard Karstark's accusation against Robb. Several other things. And now this.
In the show, there's been 4 instances of actual kinslaying, with witnesses.
Jamie killing the show-only Lannister cousin - no repercussions. He even mentioned it towards the High Sparrow.
Ramsay stabbing Roose in front of the son of the very man who accused Robb Stark of kinslaying. No repercussions.
The Sand Snakes killing their uncle and cousin in cold blood, and also having basically all of Dorne in on it. No repercussions.
And finally Euron, openly admitting to murdering Balon at the kingsmoot, getting blessed by Aeron and the very first command he utters as the king of the Iron Islands is to go and kill his nephew and niece.
In the show, it seems that kinslaying doesn't even matter in the slightest.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
In the books I always took it as an open secret that Euron killed Balon.
That is the least of the problems with the Ironborn and Euron in the show.
You're not telling me anything I don't know or didn't halfway acknowledge in my post. Doesn't mean I can't call it bad and sloppy as all fuck.
And I care about plotlines and characters' motivations making sense. If that means lending some more attention to finish a Dorne or Myrcella subplot to achieve this, then that's important to me.
Napalm_Frank
Member
1. I feel that High Sparrow is not as pious as he claims to be. He probably wouldn't want to have any true hostilities against Jaime while he was armed and armored. Even when he has lost a hand he has a reputation of being a great fighter. Also Jaime means nothing to him compared to people with real power in the capital like Cersei, Tommen and Margaery. That scene is pretty much Jaime calling him out for not coming after him.
2. The Karstark is clearly Ramsays friend and probably couldn't care less, especially since it seems he gets promoted to being the right hand man of the warden.
3. Ok, no excuses from me here
4. Yeah, this one is pretty bad. Then again the ironborn in the show especially are a bunch of lunatics anyway.
Enosh
Member
because everyone and their grandmother kills family left and right and proclaims it for everyone to hear
it's not about consequences, the whole thing with gods cursing kinslayers might be bullshit, just fairy tales, but it's a fairy tale that a lot of the people in westeros believe in very strongly, running around proclaiming to everyone, especially god fearing men like the ironborn, how you killed your brother and how you want to kill your niece and nephew would make you a pariah in such a society
hydrophilic attack
Member
Well, to its credit, at least the show seems to be internally consistent about it
He changed things that had already been changed. Hodor was already Hodor, Bran just went back and made it happen. This isn't Back to the Future.
I think you missed my point.
Fata1moose
Banned
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
hydrophilic attack
Member
There is a big difference between open secret and public knowledge. The former gives convenient deniability
Dash_Riprock
Member
OMFG this scene. Poor Imhotep missed his cue.
Purple Cheeto
Member
If the show doesn't seem to care about it, then it isn't important to the overall plot of the story. That's really the takeaway. GURM makes a big deal about kinslaying but in the end it is entirely unimportant save for "world building".
This kind of social taboos aren't mere world building, it explains characters motivations and plot points.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Absolutely. This is just the quick way of doing the same thing. If Euron was presented like he is in the books it would work well as he is a brilliant maniac.
This is a good point. But they aren't building a character, just moving chess pieces at this point.
harriet the spy
Member
The Sam scene was great. The best scene so far this season, perhaps. Damn, I miss good acting and actual
dramatic tension.
Quick Q: what was Margery's game? She can't possible have believed a word she told Tommen, right? Why did she do that? To softly announce she wanted to do her walk so she could get out (if that's the case she went too hard on the 'i am such a sinner' angle to Tommen, imo)
melo
Quick Q: what was Margery's game? She can't possible have believed a word she told Tommen, right? Why did she do that? To softly announce she wanted to do her walk so she could get out (if that's the case she went too hard on the 'i am such a sinner' angle to Tommen, imo)
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Kevan was always fiercely loyal to his brother, who wanted nothing more than for Jaime to get out of the kingsguard and return to Casterly Rock. Kevan is stuck with the situation but Jaime being forced out is exactly what Tywin would have wanted, so it's what Kevan wants as well.
Red Arremer
Member
I am well aware that kinslaying isn't important to the overall plot. What kind of fool do you take me for?
There's lots of things that aren't important to the overall plot, yet we see them included in the show.
It's not important to the overall plot that the Night's Watch can't have children, yet it's incorporated in the show. It's not important to the overall plot that Varys is a eunuch, yet it's incorporated in the show. It's not important to the overall plot that Grandmaester Pycelle shits himself during a small council meeting, yet it is incorporated in the show - and only the show.
World building (I'm not sure why you are putting that into quotation marks here) is really important, though, because it sets the stage. It is what makes that fictional world believable, and interesting. It establishes what drives characters.
In all of the cultures of Westeros, kinslaying is seen as one of the worst sins imaginable. Across all of the 3 religions native to the continent as we start the story (I say this because I'm not entirely sure how the Lord of Light's religion perceives it). It's entirely ingrained in the cultural perception of Westeros - that's why the tale of the Ratcook is told. Sure, you could argue some people wouldn't care because they don't give a shit about gods, but especially the Ironborn are super pious.
And you can't just deny that fact either, because the sole reason why Asha/Yara wasn't allowed to become the Queen of the Iron Islands is because it's heretical or whatever. But apparently when it comes to kinslaying, which is supposed to be a much worse sin than having a woman lead, the Ironborn and basically all the rest of Westeros are super fine with it. No problem whatsoever. Let's go do some more kinslaying, it's cool, right guys?
And honestly, if it wasn't for Euron's shitty portrayal in the show, I wouldn't even care about the kinslaying aspect. I already brought up my issues with the murder of the Martells and Roose beforehand, which were entirely unrelated to kinslaying.
But show Euron just completely shits all over everything on top of that. Was it really that important to make him behave like a fucking loony who just broke out of an asylum if you have the source material's kingsmoot and characterization of Euron to draw from. As someone pointed it out: They went through the effort to completely fuck Euron up. And to what end? To make him a caricature of a cartoon villain, mustache twirling and everything? So the stupid show watchers understand that he's evil?
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
The frustration is that book Euron does so much fucked up and sinister things that he'd actually fit way more with the 'edginess' that the show goes for than the current lame presentation of him.
So one of the main reasons people like the series?
no it's not
To read or not to read, that is the question.
This is fine when you have 14,000 pages to explain the ins and outs of kinslaying. A TV show adaptation has to take shortcuts and one of the cuts they chose to take was to make kinslaying a viable political option for the players.
All about the incest.
Jesus christ this is so accurate.
House Glover. They've either recast Galbart or its a new son/brother heir similar to Karstark and Umber, who will probably follow the show's theme of the new generation being cunts.
D&D have a thing for Ramsay. Can't be having too many psychopaths lest it detract from their infallible plot armored golden boy.
It's not nitpicking let alone silly or meaningless.
No, they resorted to it because of sheer laziness. If you keep resorting to the same "twist", you end up weakening the impact. Kinslaying as a plot option is fine, but using it constantly to get out of or set up cheaply written scenarios is not. I'd half expect Walder Frey to be killed by Black Walder.
BossDarkseid
Member
Maybe its some long-game Tyrell plot to fuck over the Lannisters. Publicly have a supposed alliance between the Crown and the Faith, then have Tommen killed and blame it on the Faith...with Jaime up north and Cersei having a resting bitch face, the Tyrells can swoop in to wreak vengeance upon the shadowy clergy that claimed the King's life.
Probably not, but I feel like Olenna Tyrell could have plots an entire season in advance. I still don't know if the High Sparrow is sincere about his beliefs or if he's doing it all as some plot for personal power. Regardles it feels like the Faith Militant are sort of a plot device that act as catalysts for the other characters.
I think Cersei will meet an inglorious end, Jaime will either join the NIght's Watch or say fuck life and have a spin off series with Bron...
Red Arremer
Member
My problem is that especially in the case of Euron there was literally no need to have him admit to killing Balon. But he does. And it doesn't fucking matter. In fact, it's so awesome to everyone that they crown him king to reward him for it and immediately set out to help their new king to murder more of his family - including the priestly brother.
I understand that the show has to move at a faster pace and that there isn't a lot of time to portray every reaction. But again: Was it really necessary to do this when you have the books and can actually take stuff from them? I mean, yeah, they couldn't do everything, and I completely understand that, but that doesn't mean they have to try and fuck up an interesting character and make him a goofy lumbering maniac. All he needed was a hatchet and he would've been perfect for a halloween party as shitty axe murderer. To what end did they turn Euron from a sinister character with really dark implication (some of which are indeed spelled out in that new chapter) into a cartoon baddie?
Or to continue this: If they're so afraid of drawing out plots or having redundancies in the show, why have the Dorne arc at all? What was it there for? They easily could've just said in a letter or something that "after Oberyn got killed by the Mountain, Dorne decided to rise up against the crown and their first act was to kill Myrcella". No need for the Sand Snakes, no need for yet another kinslaying, no need for the completely unbelievable "conspiracy" with literally all of Dorne being in on it, no bad pussies.
I'm not asking for a novel here, I'm asking for believable reactions from the people around those crazy psychopathic murderers.
I understand that the show has to move at a faster pace and that there isn't a lot of time to portray every reaction. But again: Was it really necessary to do this when you have the books and can actually take stuff from them? I mean, yeah, they couldn't do everything, and I completely understand that, but that doesn't mean they have to try and fuck up an interesting character and make him a goofy lumbering maniac. All he needed was a hatchet and he would've been perfect for a halloween party as shitty axe murderer. To what end did they turn Euron from a sinister character with really dark implication (some of which are indeed spelled out in that new chapter) into a cartoon baddie?
Or to continue this: If they're so afraid of drawing out plots or having redundancies in the show, why have the Dorne arc at all? What was it there for? They easily could've just said in a letter or something that "after Oberyn got killed by the Mountain, Dorne decided to rise up against the crown and their first act was to kill Myrcella". No need for the Sand Snakes, no need for yet another kinslaying, no need for the completely unbelievable "conspiracy" with literally all of Dorne being in on it, no bad pussies.
I'm not asking for a novel here, I'm asking for believable reactions from the people around those crazy psychopathic murderers.
bitbydeath
Member
So what if he already got his legs back in future and we just don't know it yet?
He could make it happen by distracting Jaime before he gets pushed. He's already shown to be capable of that.
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