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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Enosh
Member
I'm not sure how right his claim that gunpowder forced nations into more open battles, sieges were still a thing, walls just became better and stronger, the star forts were all the rage for like 200 or 300 years, it's just an arms race not an "oh well might as well give up walls" like he seems to imply, he's also ignoring the large importance of mercenaries during the late middle ages
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Isn't that why they are still in the middle ages, tech wise, for 1000s of years? Magic means you don't need technology.
This is also why the maesters hate magic and dragons.
Liquidsnake
Banned
I dont understand the Jon sno sue for peace thing,
where does he end up in the end?
where does he end up in the end?
bengraven
Member
I think it's mostly because her POV is the most meandering.
Benjen wasn't becoming a White Walker, he was becoming a wight. The actual specifics of wight-ism are still quite unknown. It could be a form of warging.
Benjen is undead. So is Lady Stoneheart. Are you ok with both? Neither?
And GRRM fundamentally changes characters when they come back so there's a narrative purpose other than not wanting characters to die.
Cornballer
Member
- Watchers with photos from next week's episode (please spoiler tag any discussion)
Jon, Beric and Stoneheart are alive (or were in Beric's case). Benjen and Coldhands are undead.
This is a real semantic struggle. My question is if people are alright with charterers coming back. Dead, undead, whatever you define it as.
People who have come back
Books:
Beric
The Hound
Lady Stoneheart
Robert Strong
Show:
Beric
Jon
The Mountain
Benjen
I might be forgetting a few. Which are good? Which are bad?
bengraven
Member
BossDarkseid
Member
Awwwww yiss!
Looks pretty. Really hoping we don't get a
Brienne vs Jaime or Bron
I think you have this backward. Jon, Beric, and Stoneheart actually died. Benjen never died, he just transformed.
This question isn't nearly as compelling as you seem to think it is. Almost all of these cases are significantly different. A person doesn't need to have a universally consistent stand on resurrection being good or bad.
VARIA
Member
Probably already discussed but it does seem (with all the flashbacks) like they're setting up Bran to be responsible for
The Mad King's "Burn them all down" fit, right? Like the Hodor incident, I suppose there is a possibility that Bran could be presented with a scene where he is referring to the White Walkers in the present (Burn them down) and instead ends up affecting the past and the Mad King. Granted, this would be a fucked up situation and ultimately make him responsible for everything which I really hope is NOT the case.
this would be lame as fuck hopefully this isn't the case
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I feel like this would be a pretty shitty thing, and totally unnecessary. We don't need a magical mcguffin to explain a particular incident in the Mad King's life, when it was well known that he was always crazy.
They're all fine (for now).
Resurrection is a mechanic that can go very wrong in a narrative but if you establish clear rules, you don't risk making death irrelevant.
As far as the show is concerned, Benjen is undead. The Mountain never died, Qyburn experimented on him while he was living. Only Beric and Jon were resurrected outright, by the same means, and it required the intervention of a deity - which may not work for everyone.
If the Hound comes back, and I think he will in the next episode, it'll likely be a case of him being nursed back to health from his injuries in 4x10 by Meribald.
I don't think people had a problem with LSH because she came back from the dead - as you mentioned, that wasn't a problem with Beric and other characters, and the entire premise of the show with the wights. The problem people have in Catelyn's case, from what I read, is that her story ended well enough where it did, and bringing her back only served to take away from it and cheapen her character story. It already had a beginning, middle and end, there was no need to go messing with it some more.
biosnake20
Member
Preston Jacobs met GRRM at Balticon and got some GoT/ASOIAF details from him
-LSH is cut from the show
-Arya and Gendry will meet again in the books
-We will see the Brave Companions again in the books
-Arya and Gendry will meet again in the books
-We will see the Brave Companions again in the books
Agreed and even if she had more story it has been absent for two books bar a single chapter with Brienne. If there is something to be told it has been squashed by other plotlines which have consumed the space of the next two books
I didn't ask for a universal stamce, that's why I listed all the characters. I think it's alright to bring a character back if they're significantly changed. Beric, Stoneheart, The Mountain/Robert Strong, and The Hound (possibly?) fall in this category. They come back as characters so different from who they were you see the cost and toll of death.
Jon is on the other side. His revival seems cheap because there was no cost. He's still Jon just with some wounds.
See? No universal answer.
Didn't GRRM claim he was done with attending conventions until he finally finished Winds of Winter?
He only cancelled stuff between then and the start of season 6, because he was desperately trying to beat season 6. Now that he didn't make that deadline, his schedule's back to normal.
I'm getting some non-book knowledgeable people together the night of the next episode to watch episode 9 and 10 of season 3. I said it's because the Riverlands is coming back, which is true and I guess it'll help them a lot (got a few questions about it since I'm an "expert" even though I haven't read the damn books!), but also to buildup a Stoneheart reveal without me looking like an idiot if it doesn't happen. Win win.
lol didn't see this
You forgot the biggest bombshell: George R. R. Martin doesn't like Chicago-style pizza.
Should we trust Martin on this? Everything is in place for Lady Stoneheart to appear in the show. It has to be happening, right?
It would be crazy to have three resurrected Starks in one season. Thtat's just overload.
demosthenes
Member
This would be a full retcon and I would be very angry by it.
Their setup is just to get Jaime and Brienne back together and to tie up the loose ends of the Freys, Tullys, and Brotherhood. They're doing that again plot, just sans Stoneheart.
Look at the differences between how they've handled Catelyn versus how they've handled Benjen and the Hound. Benjen's disappearance was always presented as a mystery, from way back in season 1. They created a reminder of him at the end of season 5, and then included him in the season 6 flashbacks. With the Hound, Arya has had multiple conversations about him with Jaqen and the Waif, including one that specifically mentions that she never finished him off. They are really careful if a character is coming back from a presumed death that they make sure the viewer remembers the character and is aware of the possibility of their survival.
There's been none of that with Catelyn. Maybe Brienne mentioned her once this season? Frey referenced her murder. If they were doing Stoneheart, they'd be hammering home the rumors of some mysterious woman with the Brotherhood. Frey would've gone on whatever rambling speech he needed to to make sure the viewer was aware that he's not really sure what happened to her corpse after they dumped it in the river. If she were coming back, we wouldn't suspect, we would know, because the level of foreshadowing necessary to make it make sense to viewers when she comes back would make it completely obvious to any one who's read the book.
Look at the differences between how they've handled Catelyn versus how they've handled Benjen and the Hound. Benjen's disappearance was always presented as a mystery, from way back in season 1. They created a reminder of him at the end of season 5, and then included him in the season 6 flashbacks. With the Hound, Arya has had multiple conversations about him with Jaqen and the Waif, including one that specifically mentions that she never finished him off. They are really careful if a character is coming back from a presumed death that they make sure the viewer remembers the character and is aware of the possibility of their survival.
There's been none of that with Catelyn. Maybe Brienne mentioned her once this season? Frey referenced her murder. If they were doing Stoneheart, they'd be hammering home the rumors of some mysterious woman with the Brotherhood. Frey would've gone on whatever rambling speech he needed to to make sure the viewer was aware that he's not really sure what happened to her corpse after they dumped it in the river. If she were coming back, we wouldn't suspect, we would know, because the level of foreshadowing necessary to make it make sense to viewers when she comes back would make it completely obvious to any one who's read the book.
What's the thinking here?
They were married and had a bad divorce years ago. There were rumors a while back that they basically can't be on set at the same time because the blood runs so bad between them, so there will never be a Cersei/Bronn scene.
The Mad King was sadistic and crazy long before 'burn them all'.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
She probably isn't for lots of reasons, including corpserot, except they've totally reminded us of Catelyn too. For a start, she was a much bigger character than Benjen (or maybe even The Hound), so less audience reminder is necessary. Secondly, they've totally done that the last few eps. Bran's flashbacks include Catelyn's death (admittedly most the major events of the Stark family are there), and also we got that exposition scene with Walder where he mentions the knife that killed Catelyn. Yeah, they could just be tying up that huge loose end that still centers around the Red Wedding (not including LSH), but people haven't forgotten her or the RW.
I also think it'd be a nice thematic, if they are going to have three revived Starks, that two of them retain at least some of their personality and drive, it's generally seen as a positive or beneficial thing to have done, that they have the third go drastically wrong. Like the audience is saying "Oh yeah dead characters can be revived now, they can just do that all the time", then revived Catelyn is a complete psycho showing how it's an unstable and unwise process.
I also think it'd be a nice thematic, if they are going to have three revived Starks, that two of them retain at least some of their personality and drive, it's generally seen as a positive or beneficial thing to have done, that they have the third go drastically wrong. Like the audience is saying "Oh yeah dead characters can be revived now, they can just do that all the time", then revived Catelyn is a complete psycho showing how it's an unstable and unwise process.
grandjedi6
Master of the Google Search
It's hard to trust any info like this because we don't see how the question was posed and there's no reason why GRRM would tell the truth even so.
Except they established right away with Beric that there's a price for coming back. Then they ignored that with Jon. We already got the warning, the shows just couldn't follow its own rules.
They didn't necessarily ignore that with Jon.
Beric was still Beric, he just didn't feel completely whole. Kit has played a more tired, reluctant Jon this year than in years pats.
Beric was a flamboyant knight before he died. Now he's sullen and dour: big difference. He also forgot who he was and what his life was like. Jon? Do you think if you saw this Jon without knowing he had died you'd think "Boy, he's sure different!" It seems like any change in Jon is from the trauma of being killed by his friends. There was no cost to resurrection, though. But even if we're talking about change from trauma, he's still mostly the same. It's like the writers after scared to push him, to make him grow. Unlike Sansa who is so much stronger and bolder.
We definitely can't trust George he even lied to his editor about Coldhands being Benjen....
Show Beric was explicitly none of those things. All he said was that he thinks he leaves a piece of him behind when he comes back.
Kit, in interview, has said Jon is changed by the experience and he's been playing Jon differently to that effect. If you wanted some massive consequences for the resurrection, yeah, you're SOL. You probably won't get them in Winds of Winter either.
Beric was killed 9 times. So he isn't comparable to Jon who has only died once.
He didn't seem that different before and after he got killed by the Hound. The deaths take away a small piece at a time
Yeah, I know the show doesn't follow it's rules but why do you think Jon will be virtually the same in the books? Martin has consequences for death.
No matter how much GRRM subverts a trope, he's still using the tropes because they define characteristics which he wants to explore in his stories. So people who are turned off by those type of characters or stories will not enjoy them no matter how subversive they are. Dany's story is that of a teenage girl in a dangerous situation, and a lot of her story revolves around romance, indecisiveness, being underestimated, and all the usual things which come with these teenage girl stories. The same goes for Sansa. The only difference between the two is that Dany is more assertive, violent, and was in a better positive to acquire actual power. I feel that most people who dislike Dany's story probably also dislike Sansa's. I know I do.
That's not to say that the other characters are more unique or original. They mostly draw on tropes and archetypes too, but if you happen to like those sort of things, you'll like those characters better. Tyrion is basically the "mastermind no one suspects" sort of character, with minority persecution thrown into the mix. Bran is the "destined wizard', Arya is the "rebellious tomboy", etc.
Educated predictions for Episode 7:
He's not the same in the show. They wrote him differently, Kit is playing him differently. They've changed none of their rules. I think he will be changed in the books - but if you're looking for him to forget who he is or be a different person? Yeah, I doubt it.
Arya leads the Waif to the dark room, where she uses her experience fighting blind to kill the Waif with Needle in the dark. Brienne's trip to the Riverlands takes her through the Quiet Isle where she meets Septon Meribald and witnesses The Hound, likely with his face covered.
Jamie and the Blackfish establish their conflict, and Jamie tries to get the weakling Edmure to betray his uncle.
Jamie and the Blackfish establish their conflict, and Jamie tries to get the weakling Edmure to betray his uncle.
He's not the same in the show. They wrote him differently, Kit is playing him differently. They've changed none of their rules. I think he will be changed in the books - but if you're looking for him to forget who he is or be a different person? Yeah, I doubt it.
So we're going to see pre-Season 5 Jaime?
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