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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 7 Offseason Thread

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H

Hazmat

Member
Bigfoot said:
Yup. Aside from the occasional cheesy line that the detractors love to run in to the ground, the writing on GoT is pretty damn good.
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Eh, the writing isn't bad, and it's nowhere near as bad as the people that are clearly hate-watching it make it out to be, but it has some real moments of weakness. It feels like the writers often know what they want to have happen, but the events that lead to it are sometimes really bad. Like, they want Stannis to be stranded and desperate, so they want him to lose his supplies, and that's a good plot point. Having Ramsay and his 20 good men seemingly sneak into his camp, burn all his supplies, and escape unscathed is not. Dany having the Greyjoy fleet is good, but they way they got to it felt unearned.

It's not terrible and no show is perfect, but it goes beyond the "bad pussy" line.
 
K

KingKong

Member
The best thing I would say about the writing is that it's serviceable. It more or less gets the job done, but very little of it is memorable or clever, no matter how hard some of the actors try. And even then they seem to have a lot of trouble getting their ideas across (like the rape scenes from the previous season, the Aria thing, the blackfish, Sansa not telling Jon about the army, etc)
 
B

BuggyDClown

Member
I feel ridiculous even asking, but could the next book be out before season 7?

I decided to get the audio books so I could have something to tie me over until next year.
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Hazmat said:
Eh, the writing isn't bad, and it's nowhere near as bad as the people that are clearly hate-watching it make it out to be, but it has some real moments of weakness. It feels like the writers often know what they want to have happen, but the events that lead to it are sometimes really bad. Like, they want Stannis to be stranded and desperate, so they want him to lose his supplies, and that's a good plot point. Having Ramsay and his 20 good men seemingly sneak into his camp, burn all his supplies, and escape unscathed is not. Dany having the Greyjoy fleet is good, but they way they got to it felt unearned.

It's not terrible and no show is perfect, but it goes beyond the "bad pussy" line.
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The plot's well unrealistic. It's no longer organic which was one of the best things of GRRM's writing.

The plot writes the characters in GOT not the other way around like in the books.
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Speevy said:
Well, that is true, but things also should not happen just because of character descriptions either.
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Someone once described ASOIAF to me as GRRM's long D & D game gone wrong where everyone became too busy fighting and fucking each other to resolve the plot.

But anyways I'll give you that. I know GRRM sometimes writes out a couple different scenarios for characters to see which best fits and that he has trouble railroading the characters to do what he wants.
 
D

Dash_Riprock

Member
Black_Sun said:
The plot's well unrealistic. It's no longer organic which was one of the best things of GRRM's writing.

The plot writes the characters in GOT not the other way around like in the books.
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The problem is there hasn't been much of a plot since book 5. GRRM has his characters dicking around in the same place for chapters on end/introducing dozens of sideplots that will probably go nowhere if their exclusion/massive shortening on the show is any indication, all just so he can world build some more.

I can understand it to a point:World Building is by far the funnest aspect of a fantasy novel to write, but for fuck's sake, its can be left in appendices/their own separate side books like The World of Ice and Fire. For contrast, Tolkien never even intended his backstory to be released, hence why only hardcore Tolkien/Fantasy fans like the Silmarillion while everyone else finds it a chore to read through,
 
B

Black_Sun

Member
Dash_Riprock said:
The problem is there hasn't been much of a plot since book 5. GRRM has his characters dicking around in the same place for chapters on end/introducing dozens of sideplots that will probably go nowhere if their exclusion/massive shortening on the show is any indication, all just so he can world build some more.

I can understand it to a point:World Building is by far the funnest aspect of a fantasy novel to write, but for fuck's sake, its can be left in appendices/their own separate side books like The World of Ice and Fire. For contrast, Tolkien never even intended his backstory to be released, hence why only hardcore Tolkien/Fantasy fans like the Silmarillion while everyone else finds it a chore to read through,
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For main characters book 4-5 is about character development. The ones that carry the plot are new characters or PoVs like Euron, Cersei and Aegon etc
 
M

mantidor

Member
So there were two lines from the earlier trailers that went MIA in the show (as far as I noticed).

First Bran says "they have no idea what is coming", he never said this on the show.

Then is Sansa saying"All I can think about, is the things that have been taken from me", again lost, this is one is more inconsequential though.

I wonder how much footage do they cut.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
Its been a week, so now that the hype is down I would like to ramble an assortment of points on this season.

-Overall, it was definitely better than season 5. Right now I am placing it alongside season 2 in terms of quality (which is my fifth favorite season), so I can say S6 is the fourth or fifth best as of now.

- As for individual plots, Jon Snow's, like last season was the best. Battle of the Bastards was quite the spectacle even if it made no sense. As for other plots.... mehhh. Euron Greyjoy was butchered, but hey he's only been in two epsiodes so they can salvage him yet. Tyrion hasn't been interesting since season 4, and most Tyrion scenes this season were a waste of screen time. King's Landing was also mediocore, but it ended on a high note at least. "Light of the Seven" was an amazing track, and Ramin Djawadi's music in general was great. I also liked Bran's story, we finally got that confirmation we so long yearned for...

- Do not let Mark Mylod anywhere near the directors chair ever, alas he's already confirmed for next season. On the other hand, Miguel Sapochnik was great and I would love to see him back for season 8.

- Writing was bad, but that's to be expected of post-season 1 Game of Thrones. I think we can all lament the massive failure on both the part of fans and critics when a show like Game of Thrones, especially the fifth season cleaned the Emmy's when actual masterpieces like Hannibal didn't even get nominations.

- Just wanted to say again how much I loved the Battle of the bastards. It encapsulated the grittiness, horror spectacle and weight of war very well.

- One thing that really irked me though, they got Brother Ray who is supposed to be a show version of Meribald, they title the episode "The Broken Man".... yet they didn't give us the speech the episode's name is based on?! D&D pls

- Wildfire sequence was GOAT, loved the image of Cersei on the throne. Hopefully we are getting AFFC book Jaime finally?

- Performances were great as ever, I think Kit especially improved.

- SHE'S FINALLY SAILING TO WESTEROS! Don't even like Dany, but the plots about to get much more interesting.

- Finally good to see new content after 5-6 years.

- To put it bluntly, I think the season had a total of three good episodes (Battle of the Bastards, The Door, and The Winds of Winter)
 
M

Media

Member
Azzanadra said:
- One thing that really irked me though, they got Brother ray who is supposed to be a show version of Meribald, they title the episode "The Broken Man".... yet they didn't give us the speech the episode's name is based on?! D&D pls
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This was the biggest failing for me of the season as well. They took the time to title it that, and didn't even follow through? Ugh.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Happy 4th of July!
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Jibbajabbawockky

Jibbajabbawockky

Member
I just rewatched season 1 over the past week or so and as much as I ended up enjoying Season 6, I really miss how good Season 1 was with character based moments.

So many of the huge moments in Season 6 were awesome for the spectacle but so many of the moments in Season 1 that got me were just smaller moments like Robb wailing away at the tree after hearing about Ned's death or Dany having to mercy kill Drogo. Then you had the great relationships between Arya and Ned or Arya and Syrio. Hell, rewatching Season 1 really made me miss Cat too. All those characters had some character and dimensions to them thats been lacking for a while on the show.


It's strange in a way. Watching Ned get killed in Episode 9 and seeing everyone react to it made me super pissed at the Lannisters again. But then you fast forward to the end of Season 6 and who is left to be pissed at for that stuff anymore? Even characters like Cersei now seem so far removed from that stuff that they almost feel like completely different characters, nevermind that most of the Starks like Robb or Cat, that felt the most impacted by Ned's death are all dead.

Meanwhile you have Dany who I liked in Season 1 but thinking where she is at the end of season 1 and the end of season 6 and her character development has been horribly stagnant. Which just makes how overpowered her crew is now that much more disappointing. I just hope she doesn't steamroll everyone in Westeros and that she faces some major backlash, cause she's easily the least interesting character in the show right now, IMO.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
I'm rewatching season 1 as well at the moment, so many great moments. tyrions trial, visery's crown, the birth of the dragons, ned's beheading. I always said they should have made 2 seasons for that, but the pacing is actually perfect, it would have become a borefest like the first halfs of seasons 3 and 4 otherwise probably.
but I always said season 1 is the best season because AGOT is the best book, and I feel affirmed now.

something I noticed again is how the actual main story, the death of jon arryn and who ordered the hit on bran, are really only secondary. I felt the same way when I read the books. I know many book readers feel differently, but it really is the exciting twists that made the books so memorable and fantastic reads. and that's what AFFC/ADWD lacked completely.
 
H

Human Trashcan

Banned
Yeah the show really sacrificed the good little character moments for pure economy in dialogue almost. When it does try something like Tyrion talking to Missandei and Grey Worm it just doesn't really do anything for these characters that we didn't already know. I do miss the character development on the show.

The show has always had a Daenerys problem in that it never managed to make her interesting after season 1. She just got boring. She's suffered more than any of the major characters transitioning from page to screen, and from being aged up, and from not having her inner monologue for us to read.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Moff said:
but I always said season 1 is the best season because AGOT is the best book, and I feel affirmed now.
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I don't personally think AGOT is the best book in the series, but it's absolutely the one most suited to television adaptation. The plot is much more interlinked than it has been at any point since -- virtually the whole show revolves around Ned, and even the two plots that don't (Dany and Jon) intersect with the main plot at crucial points (the issue of assassinating Dany, Jon's climactic choice about whether to desert the Watch or not).

Ever since, the show has been dealing with far more stories, many of which don't have much to do with each other.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
Man I feel like re-watching season 1 now!

I don't think AGOT is the best book per se, but like others have yet it is the best suited for television adaption. But the writing seems from another world compared to what we have now. It was a tighter story, the arcs more closely connected and revolving around a single "main character" (at that point at least) and there was no reliance on "fuck the..." anything to have characters sounds cool.

The best thing about S1 though is that the dialogue was pretty much taken straight from the book, whereas most of the dialogue now is conjured up in D&D's own minds.
 
V

Vyer

Member
S1 is always severely overrated by some book fans, for obvious reasons.

The show is much better off for being able to transition into its own entity in many ways; not the least of which being how fucked they'd be at this point otherwise.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Cromwell said:
Uh, he's right though. They've simplified and streamlined everything, added lots of tits and violence, made the dialogue a lot more blunt, and the ratings skyrocketed.
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The books are absolutely loaded with tits and violence. It's probably the most violent fantasy series ever released.

D and D didn't add anything. They may be shit writers, but they didn't redefine what it is.
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
Cromwell said:
Uh, he's right though. They've simplified and streamlined everything, added lots of tits and violence, made the dialogue a lot more blunt, and the ratings skyrocketed.
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There's less character moments and plot building as things are ramping down towards the great Battle in the North, but "added lots of tits"?

There's been less and less as seasons passed, and I am kinda glad they don't feel they have to rely on that for the show tbh.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
KahooTs said:
You have a counter argument against it? Or are you just like so many who seem to basically agree but for some reason get upset when its said.
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Everyone enjoys sex and death. It's the basis for most movies, TV shows, and books.

The idea of "lowest common denominator" assumes that there exists a group of people who would make this show successful if it followed the books exactly. There's not.

The people who watch this show might not even notice if D and D wrote well, but they would certainly notice if the show was boring.

For better or worse, Game of Thrones has better ratings and critical acclaim than anything it could possibly be expected to compete with, with the apparent exception of its own source material.

The past two episodes for me were more entertaining than the show has ever been, and I'm happy about that. After all the complaints the show received last year, I would think that you would at least give it props for going all out this year.

But no, it's the same old D and D can't write original material. They can sure as hell run a successful TV show.
 
K

Kozak

Banned
"added lots of tits and violence"

I'd honestly say they've scaled it back

The books were far more violent, gruesome and sex filled.

edit:

Like that fight between Brienn, Rorge and Biter in the books.. holy shit
 
V

Violet_0

Banned
I'm going through The Sopranos right now (first-time watch) and the difference in the quality of the writing between the two shows is like day and night, same with The Wire. The writing in GoT is mostly passable to good, sometimes great, occasionally abysmal, but it won't ever reach the heights of the truly great shows
 
M

mantidor

Member
This season in particular was tame in nudity, it was violent but nowhere near previous seasons, including battle of the bastards and everything.
 
J

JakeD

Member
what book ramsay and original reek did to the peasant girls they hunted is way worse than anything in the show.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
Speevy said:
The idea of "lowest common denominator" assumes that there exists a group of people who would make this show successful if it followed the books exactly. There's not.
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Nonsense, the lowest common denominator doesn't assume anything other than the standard of writing dropped and the show did not suffer for it commercially. Yes, they're successful show runners without being good writers (on the show at least), that was the whole point of the first post that so upset you.

You thought people who value quality writing would be happy because the show went 'all out'? Really? I'm happy to admit the show does spectacle, big budget, CGI, action etc, all very well. What I wonder is why does it upset you so much to see it said the writing is crap? You don't even care about the writing.
 
A

Azzanadra

Member
JakeD said:
what book ramsay and original reek did to the peasant girls they hunted is way worse than anything in the show.
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I think the problem with the show is that it sensationalizes the violence. That fight with Rorge, and anything Ramsay does truly feels disgusting. The show equivalent of the Brienne vs Sandor fight was seen as "awesome" and "cool". Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs is described as poetic justice by D&D.
 
D

dabig2

Member
Violet_0 said:
I'm going through The Sopranos right now (first-time watch) and the difference in the quality of the writing between the two shows is like day and night, same with The Wire. The writing in GoT is mostly passable to good, sometimes great, occasionally abysmal, but it won't ever reach the heights of the truly great shows
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Rome and Deadwood as well blow it out of the water. I'm disappointed because GoT could solidify itself as a GOAT epic if the script and writing wasn't subpar. IMO, it's Spartacus level but without the charm.

This season was a massive improvement over the last, but almost every plotline in the season was slowly and painfully prodding along until the big flourish at the end. The biggest culprits being King's Landing, Braavos, Mereen, and The North (not including Bran).
 
K

Kallor

Member
Violet_0 said:
I'm going through The Sopranos right now (first-time watch) and the difference in the quality of the writing between the two shows is like day and night, same with The Wire. The writing in GoT is mostly passable to good, sometimes great, occasionally abysmal, but it won't ever reach the heights of the truly great shows
Click to expand...

Deadwood, Mad Men and Rome hit those heights too. I'd put Game of thrones some where just below Breaking Bad or Boardwalk for writing though.
 
T

Turin

Banned
Season 1 also featured Littlefinger with a proper accent. Before Aidan Gillen hit his head or whatever happened.....

Back when we were bitching a lot about Jaime I was going back to watch some of his best scenes from the first 3 seasons.

One of my favorites from Season 1: Ned and Jaime in the throne room
 
K

KahooTs

Member
dabig2 said:
Rome and Deadwood as well blow it out of the water. I'm disappointed because GoT could solidify itself as a GOAT epic if the script and writing wasn't subpar. IMO, it's Spartacus level but without the charm.

This season was a massive improvement over the last, but almost every plotline in the season was slowly and painfully prodding along until the big flourish at the end. The biggest culprits being King's Landing, Braavos, Mereen, and The North (not including Bran).
Click to expand...

What makes it Spartacus level? As far as I can see Spartacus had consistent characters, ever entertaining dialogue and a rhythmic pace all over GOT. Actually they even did intrigue better than current GOT.
 
S

Sheroking

Member
Neither Deadwood nor Rome lived long enough to see themselves "become the villain". Even then, I'd argue Deadwood is remembered more for it's dialogue than any actual narrative excellence and Rome was dullard pageantry at least some of the time.

Game of Thrones is possibly the most complicated TV show to ever air. There are some truly bad bits of writing that are impossible to rationalize away, but there's more good writing than bad. I said it before, I'll say it again - you will only find serious criticism of Game of Thrones - the kind that implies the show isn't well above average - with book readers who take issue with the adaptation. It has near universal critical and audience acclaim outside of circles like this one.

I also think it's unreasonable to set the bar at The Sopranos or The Wire. That's the best TV ever.
 
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