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[Starphanluke]

Stopping the show after 11 episodes was D&D's choice. HBO would have gladly payed for more episodes. They chose to forgo nuance.

Which was, IMO, the right call. As much as I love the sprawling complexity of the books, the show was at a point where it needed payoffs. Could it use more "nuance?" Of course. But I personally appreciate the shows current focus on the bigger picture.

 

[dubq]

Not the most well written piece, (ironically enough) but I agree with most of it. I made the same point about the ballista thing yesterday. The show runners are just writing to tentpoles exclusively now. We're getting some cool moments mixed in, but take even the most cursory look at the big picture at this point and the whole thing starts to fall apart. The "Great War" has barely begun and it's already a pile of nonsense.

Not sure why people are hanging this scene out to dry so hard. Qyburn didn't say he invented the weapon. He said he had people working to make them to fight the dragons. There wouldn't have been a need for this type of weapon once the last dragon died, which was hundreds of years ago. So, obviously, they would need to make new/better ones for the current era and re-emergence of dragons.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Payoff? Like when High Sparrow whispered a secret to Tommen and then Tommen whispered a secret to Cercei but we never found out what was said because Cercei blew everything up? The show isn't worried about payoffs, it just wants stuff to happen. Big difference.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Not sure why people are hanging this scene out to dry so hard. Qyburn didn't say he invented the weapon. He said he had people working to make them to fight the dragons. There wouldn't have been a need for this type of weapon once the last dragon died, which was hundreds of years ago. So, obviously, they would need to make new/better ones for the current era and re-emergence of dragons.

My main gripe is that, at the end of the day, is that it's just a fucking ballista. Pretty common siege engine. Also has plenty of utility beyond shooting at dragons. And, if they're effective against dragons as Qyburn suspects, how in the hell did Aegon 1 lay waste to Westoros with three dragons?

 

[John Dunbar]

My main gripe is that, at the end of the day, is that it's just a fucking ballista. Pretty common siege engine. Also has plenty of utility beyond shooting at dragons. And, if they're effective against dragons as Qyburn suspects, how in the hell did Aegon 1 lay waste to Westoros with three dragons?

clearly not true. ballistas fell out of use after the last dragon died during ancient rome.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

clearly not true. ballistas fell out of use after the last dragon died during ancient rome.

Oh, shit...I forgot...

 

[Rad Shadow]

Payoff? Like when High Sparrow whispered a secret to Tommen and then Tommen whispered a secret to Cercei but we never found out what was said because Cercei blew everything up? The show isn't worried about payoffs, it just wants stuff to happen. Big difference.

SHIT!

I forgot about that. Hope they reveal what the secret was in the books!

 

[Real Hero]

the reveal of the tiny ballista made me laugh so much. It just looked tiny and pathetic. Especially as I was watching with people saying 'ooh he's going to control/kill the dragon with magic' and then it was just the most normal weapon ever.

 

[Gigglepoo]

SHIT!

I forgot about that. Hope they reveal what the secret was in the books!

Remember that Tommen is still a child in the books (I think he's 8) so that storyline will be pretty different.

 

[Starphanluke]

Payoff? Like when High Sparrow whispered a secret to Tommen and then Tommen whispered a secret to Cercei but we never found out what was said because Cercei blew everything up? The show isn't worried about payoffs, it just wants stuff to happen. Big difference.

I could be misremembering here, but wasn't that "secret" just that Margery was to have a walk of shame, which Cersei promptly told the High Council, which sprung them into action. And didn't it turn out that the HS actually wanted Tommen to tell Cersei so they would react and he could embarrass them in front of the city? Or are we talking about something else?

 

[Fuzzy]

SHIT!

I forgot about that. Hope they reveal what the secret was in the books!

"Beware Ser Pounce. He is the valonqar."

 

[CloudWolf]

Payoff? Like when High Sparrow whispered a secret to Tommen and then Tommen whispered a secret to Cercei but we never found out what was said because Cercei blew everything up? The show isn't worried about payoffs, it just wants stuff to happen. Big difference.

Remember when Margaery gave Olenna a drawing of a rose and looked all mysterious like she had a plan up her sleeve? Oh man, I wonder what her plan is going to b-- oh no, now she's dead.

 

[biosnake20]

 

[Starphanluke]

Remember when Margaery gave Olenna a drawing of a rose and looked all mysterious like she had a plan up her sleeve? Oh man, I wonder what her plan is going to b-- oh no, now she's dead.

99% sure that was 1. To assure Olenna that Margaery was still loyal to the Tyrells, despite her playing all nice with the faith
And 2. To get Olenna to leave the city, as the HS was going to go after her soon.
Both of which were clear and worked.

 

[Gigglepoo]

99% sure that was 1. To assure Olenna that Margaery was still loyal to the Tyrells, despite her playing all nice with the faith
And 2. To get Olenna to leave the city, as the HS was going to go after her soon.
Both of which were clear and worked.

So we went from a show where people had schemes to straightforward non-plans. Cool.

 

[Speevy]

That Forbes article misses the more important point of why the Dornish/Tyrell/Greyjoy thing happened in the first place: So Cersei could stay winning all day without actually beating Dany.

Dany doesn't really need Greyjoy ships. She definitely doesn't need the Dornish, who are vastly more effective in defending I dunno...Dorne than attacking anywhere else.

And if Dany wanted Olenna's help, why publicly declare an alliance? Why not just torch the grain supply like she's been threatening to do for 3 seasons? Why not surprise attack the Lannisters when they were coming back from the Riverlands?

In the real world, it would take more time to travel from the Twins to King's Landing than it would for the smoldering fires of the sept explosion to go out.

Cersei even says "Tales of her brutality are legendary. She nailed nobles to crosses in SLAVER'S BAY"

But your grace, might that have been to free SLAVES, which we don't have here in Westeros?

But instead, they turned the entire continent of Westeros into umm..Americans. Yes, Americans. Trump's Americans. Fuck those foreigners! Olenna's with em'? Well, fuck her too!

I wonder if Dan and Dave ever considered that there are free cities and slave cities in the world of ice and fire for a reason. It certainly wasn't so you could call all slaves and Dothraki "mindless savages". Even the slave owners never called them that.

 

[Starphanluke]

So we went from a show where people had schemes to straightforward non-plans. Cool.

...what? Of course she had a plan. To save/protect her family (as shown with her backdoor deal with the HS and her getting Olenna the hell outta there) and to maintain her place of power. And she failed. That's the shtick of both the show and the books. I don't even understand the counter-argument here?

 

[Iksenpets]

That Forbes article misses the more important point of why the Dornish/Tyrell/Greyjoy thing happened in the first place: So Cersei could stay winning all day without actually beating Dany.

Dany doesn't really need Greyjoy ships. She definitely doesn't need the Dornish, who are vastly more effective in defending I dunno...Dorne than attacking anywhere else.

And if Dany wanted Olenna's help, why publicly declare an alliance? Why not just torch the grain supply like she's been threatening to do for 3 seasons? Why not surprise attack the Lannisters when they were coming back from the Riverlands?

In the real world, it would take more time to travel from the Twins to King's Landing than it would for the smoldering fires of the sept explosion to go out.

Cersei even says "Tales of her brutality are legendary. She nailed nobles to crosses in SLAVER'S BAY"

But your grace, might that have been to free SLAVES, which why don't have here in Westeros?

But instead, they turned the entire continent of Westeros into umm..Americans. Yes, Americans. Trump's Americans. Fuck those foreigners! Olenna's with em'? Well, fuck her too!

I wonder if Dan and Dave ever considered that there are free cities and slave cities in the world of ice and fire for a reason. It certainly wasn't so you could call all slaves and Dothraki "mindless savages". Even the slave owners never called them that.

I don't think it's that crazy to think that a country that has had no experience of slavery for hundreds or thousands of years could respond with bigotry when presented with actual slaves, and could actually be more bigoted towards the people who have been living with them all their lives.

If you're in Westeros, your complete understanding of the Unsullied is limited to 1.) eunuchs (which in a patriarchal society is going to be associated with have been stripped of their sense of self), 2.) follow orders without question, 3.) fighting machines. Going to "mindless" as the adjective of choice there doesn't seem like that big a leap. And viewing the Dothraki as "savages" seems pretty in line with how nomadic cultures have always been viewed by sedentary ones.

Jaime and Cersei are obviously wrong about the Unsullied and the Dothraki and are saying bigoted stuff, but it's pretty clear how they got there, and whenever the books get there I'd imagine the theme of Westerosi bigotry towards both the Unsullied and the Dothraki will be pretty prevalent there, too.

 

[Gigglepoo]

...what? Of course she had a plan. To save/protect her family (as shown with her backdoor deal with the HS and her getting Olenna the hell outta there) and to maintain her place of power. And she failed. That's the shtick of both the show and the books. I don't even understand the counter-argument here?

Her scheme was to blindly go along with everything the High Sparrow said. I thought that was a feint given that she said as much and characters used to hide their true motives while hatching alternate schemes. Do you see the difference? Saying "I'm going along with the High Sparrow" for an entire season and then going along with the High Sparrow is straightforward to a fault.

 

[Starphanluke]

Her scheme was to blindly go along with everything the High Sparrow said. I thought that was a feint given that she said as much and characters used to hide their true motives while hatching alternate schemes. Do you see the difference? Saying "I'm going along with the High Sparrow" for an entire season and then going along with the High Sparrow is straightforward to a fault.

Maybe I need to rewatch the King's Landing sequences from last season again, but I seem to remember there being plenty of hints she wasn't just going along with him. Hell, if she was blindly listening to him, she wouldn't have had to cut a deal with him like was shown in the finale. I will concede that I don't think enough time was spent with Margaery last season, but it seemed to me she was trying to use the HS, not just "go along with him." Which, again, she failed at in the end.

 

[John Dunbar]

That Forbes article misses the more important point of why the Dornish/Tyrell/Greyjoy thing happened in the first place: So Cersei could stay winning all day without actually beating Dany.

Dany doesn't really need Greyjoy ships. She definitely doesn't need the Dornish, who are vastly more effective in defending I dunno...Dorne than attacking anywhere else.

And if Dany wanted Olenna's help, why publicly declare an alliance? Why not just torch the grain supply like she's been threatening to do for 3 seasons? Why not surprise attack the Lannisters when they were coming back from the Riverlands?

In the real world, it would take more time to travel from the Twins to King's Landing than it would for the smoldering fires of the sept explosion to go out.

Cersei even says "Tales of her brutality are legendary. She nailed nobles to crosses in SLAVER'S BAY"

But your grace, might that have been to free SLAVES, which we don't have here in Westeros?

But instead, they turned the entire continent of Westeros into umm..Americans. Yes, Americans. Trump's Americans. Fuck those foreigners! Olenna's with em'? Well, fuck her too!

I wonder if Dan and Dave ever considered that there are free cities and slave cities in the world of ice and fire for a reason. It certainly wasn't so you could call all slaves and Dothraki "mindless savages". Even the slave owners never called them that.

i'm not sure how you would expect anyone in westeros to have even a slightly positive view of the unsullied or the dothraki.

also, cersei is brainwashing people on her side by telling the truth about dany. what a world.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Maybe I need to rewatch the King's Landing sequences from last season again, but I seem to remember there being plenty of hints she wasn't just going along with him. Hell, if she was blindly listening to him, she wouldn't have had to cut a deal with him like was shown in the finale. I will concede that I don't think enough time was spent with Margaery last season, but it seemed to me she was trying to use the HS, not just "go along with him." Which, again, she failed at in the end.

Maybe I missed something? I know that Loras was carved up in front of her so that's not too great of a plan. I agree that she was supposed to be using the HS but that didn't play out at all on screen. We just saw her follow him, convert Tommen, and see her brother be branded. I have no idea what her greater plan was. What would have happened if the Sept didn't blow?

 

[The Artisan]

I took that scene as her feeling deflated - she's just killed a lot of Freys and doesn't feel better. Maybe it's some internal confusion after she met a load of Lannister soldiers who didn't seem like dicks - it could just be sadness because she regularly followed Ed Sheeran on Twitter.

lol

perhaps you're right, that day she was in the pub with Hotpie might've just been a phase she's going through so I hope she snaps the fuck out of it when she makes it back to Winterfell. Her family needs her, and she needs her family. And we need Arya Stark, the Arya raised by Ned and Cat.

 

[Starphanluke]

Maybe I missed something? I know that Loras was carved up in front of her so that's not too great of a plan. I agree that she was supposed to be using the HS but that didn't play out at all on screen. We just saw her follow him, convert Tommen, and see her brother be branded. I have no idea what her greater plan was. What would have happened if the Sept didn't blow?

I guess the crux of my argument relies on the fact that she spoke privately to the HS after they carved up Loras and complained that the HS said he wouldn't hurt Loras. There's implications in their little talk that they had some behind-the-scenes deal. I do agree it's weird she didn't say something, you know, as they started to carve him.
My takeaway from it all was that she planned to protect her family and take down Cersei using the Faith, then worry about them later. Again, not enough time was spent fleshing this out, but the seeds were at least strown.

 

[Red Arremer]

Cersei even says "Tales of her brutality are legendary. She nailed nobles to crosses in SLAVER'S BAY"

But your grace, might that have been to free SLAVES, which we don't have here in Westeros?

In all fairness to that line:
While there are slaves in Slaver's Bay, even if Dany had liberated the Ghiscari cities and there had been no more slavers, the name Slaver's Bay would still have stayed the same, because it's a name, unless there would've been a global acceptance of a renaming of the bay, which seems unlikely (which would mirror people referring to countries that have renamed themselves by their old name, still).

 

[Gunslinger]

Anyone here think given how OP the lannisters are in the show that Cersei in actually going to win against Dany and Jon. Also given how OP Euron is i won't be surprised if he took down 2 dragons by himself.

 

[bitbydeath]

Anyone here think given how OP the lannisters are in the show that Cersei in actually going to win against Dany and Jon. Also given how OP Euron is i won't be surprised if he took down 2 dragons by himself.

Cersei will die this season, next season will be solely focused on the white walkers. There won't be enough time for more of her unless she joins in the fight which seems incredibly unlikely.

 

[Aurongel]

Loved the scene with Nymeria. Pretty touching that she was likely rejecting Arya because of how dramatically she's changed since the first season.

 

[Speevy]

i'm not sure how you would expect anyone in westeros to have even a slightly positive view of the unsullied or the dothraki.

also, cersei is brainwashing people on her side by telling the truth about dany. what a world.

I don't think they would have a positive view of anyone foreign.

It's just that Cersei is not loved by anyone. She rules by exactly the same principles with which she wishes to distinguish herself from Dany.

-Dubious claim to the throne (read: she has none, no one believes her sons were legitimate)

-Burns her enemies alive. As Olenna pointed out, Margaery was loved by all and she killed her.

-Seeking the help of the truly vile. Just a week before, she negotiated (although without bearing fruit at that point) with Euron Greyjoy, a notorious pirate whose greatest claim to fame is rebelling against the crown. Breaking guest right at the red wedding with the help of Walder Frey.

Cersei has absolutely no grounds on which to play this card. She has disregarded the traditions of her homeland at every turn by ripping up royal decrees, killing rightful queens, committing adultery, and other crimes that she will never have to answer for.

Ned Stark, who was the most lawful and loyal servant anyone ever saw defied Robert Baratheon when he suggested killing Dany and her foreign savages.

Now Cersei has the gall to put forth the notion that she fights for her homeland, even though she has stood idly by as her own soldiers raped and pillaged the otherwise peaceful countryside.

Cersei has no faith, no country, and no honor to claim Westeros as her own, so she has no right to say it isn't Dany's.

 

[Starphanluke]

Cersei will die this season, next season will be solely focused on the white walkers. There won't be enough time for more of her unless she joins in the fight which seems incredibly unlikely.

I'm not convinced she will. I think they'll keep her as the "constant thorn in their side while they worry about the bigger threat."
But maybe that's the Cersei-fan side of me coming out
;-)

 

[Sean C]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ut-game-of-thrones-after-last-nights-episode/

This was posted in the show only thread, felt it would be better discussed here.

Thoughts?

On this point:

Then there's Dany trying to cow Varys and threatening to burn him alive, and acting like a real tyrant by summoning Jon Snow to "bend the knee." What on earth is the show trying to do with this character? I have no idea at this point. She's utterly unlikable, a Mad Queen in the making, but still propped up as some wonderful savior. Varys and Tyrion and all her other sidekicks love her to pieces, but she's acting like a villain. It doesn't add up.

I'm not sure why so many people act surprised by the 'bend the knee' line. Dany's mission has been, all along, to conquer/reassert her family's claim to Westeros. Jon claims to be king of part of Westeros. Making him give up his crown is inherent in her mission.

 

[The Artisan]

I'm not sure why so many people act surprised by the 'bend the knee' line. Dany's mission has been, all along, to conquer/reassert her family's claim to Westeros. Jon claims to be king of part of Westeros. Making him give up his crown is inherent in her mission.

The way she said "bend the knee" with that attitude made it sound like in her voice, that he doesn't deserve to be king; with knowing barely anything about him, except for the good things she literally just heard about them. Before she sailed for Westeros she also knew she had to make allies; demanding respect from high lords isn't the best way to start friendships and make allies.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I guess the crux of my argument relies on the fact that she spoke privately to the HS after they carved up Loras and complained that the HS said he wouldn't hurt Loras. There's implications in their little talk that they had some behind-the-scenes deal. I do agree it's weird she didn't say something, you know, as they started to carve him.
My takeaway from it all was that she planned to protect her family and take down Cersei using the Faith, then worry about them later. Again, not enough time was spent fleshing this out, but the seeds were at least strown.

Which goes back to my original point: these show runners are lousy at paying things off

 

[Speevy]

I never really thought about this much when I was watching the first couple of seasons, but (fantasy) medieval society is really a lot more interesting to watch when there are rules.

 

[bitbydeath]

People hating on Dany but what about Sansa?
She was begging Jon not to go until he said she will be left in charge, I hope Arya lays the smackdown on her when she arrives.

 

[The Artisan]

People hating on Dany but what about Sansa?
She was begging Jon not to go until he said she will be left in charge, I hope Arya lays the smackdown on her when she arrives.

Sansa is getting what she wanted, I guess.

 

[SerAardvark]

Which goes back to my original point: these show runners are lousy at paying things off

The payoff was that all that plotting was for naught because Cersei was more ruthless/unhinged than even Margaery realized. Sometimes plans don't work out.

Did we really need an exposition scene where Margaery painstakingly explains to Loras (or whoever) exactly what will happen once his trial is over? The audience knows Margaery is smart and plotting something,- I don't see why relying on the expectation of "Margaery has something up her sleeve" only to see her get outmaneuvered is a problem. Just because a plan or plot is unsuccessful doesn't mean it didn't have payoff or it was inherently pointless or whatever.

 

[bitbydeath]

Sansa is getting what she wanted, I guess.

She still just wants to play princess after all this time, despite everything she's been through she still acts like a selfish little girl.

 

[Faddy]

I never really thought about this much when I was watching the first couple of seasons, but (fantasy) medieval society is really a lot more interesting to watch when there are rules.

But most of the interesting things happen when people break the rules.

 

[Speevy]

Littlefinger's eyes went so shifty when Sansa was put in charge that I think he scared Ghost away.

 

[Speevy]

But most of the interesting things happen when people break the rules.

In a functioning society, there are consequences to breaking rules or there is just anarchy.

That's always been the problem with this show. X person fights Y person for this chair and plots endless revenges for the sake of ruling people we don't see benefit from either outcome.

 

[Gigglepoo]

The payoff was that all that plotting was for naught because Cersei was more ruthless/unhinged than even Margaery realized. Sometimes plans don't work out.

I guess. Margaery's story probably wouldn't eat at me so much if the showrunners had been devising clever plot turns since departing from the books. But they haven't. Things are now very straightforward and often ignore logic and character motivations so situations line up. That's lousy storytelling.

Did we really need an exposition scene where Margaery painstakingly explains to Loras (or whoever) exactly what will happen once his trial is over? The audience knows Margaery is smart and plotting something,- I don't see why relying on the expectation of "Margaery has something up her sleeve" only to see her get outmaneuvered is a problem. Just because a plan or plot is unsuccessful doesn't mean it didn't have payoff or it was inherently pointless or whatever.

We didn't see Margaery being smart, though. It's not like we saw her with smart schemes in the past but then this one was thwarted. Her HS plot lasted two seasons and we never found out anything about it. Considering she died and Loras was cut up, we can only conclude she was a moron the whole time.

 

[The Artisan]

She still just wants to play princess after all this time, despite everything she's been through she still acts like a selfish little girl.

she's been through a lot though, man. she was forced to watch her father lose her head, then she was forced to look her father's and septa's severed heads, then she was almost raped in the streets, then she was forced to marry a man 30+ years older than her, then she has to hear the news of her brother and mother getting killed, then she was raped by the man whose father killed her brother.

her childhood was scarring as fuck.

 

[The Artisan]

thank you for this, where did you find it?

edit: sorry for double post

 

[bitbydeath]

I guess. Margaery's story probably wouldn't eat at me so much if the showrunners had been devising clever plot turns since departing from the books. But they haven't. Things are now very straightforward and often ignore logic and character motivations so situations line up. That's lousy storytelling.

Agree, feels like they are focused on tying up loose ends with what was created as opposed to building anything further.

Maybe George will do the same.

Spoiler

We'll never know

 

[John Dunbar]

i still don't know why lancel decided to follow some random kid in the sewers when he was sent to get cersei.

 

[Starphanluke]

Which goes back to my original point: these show runners are lousy at paying things off

I definitely see what you're saying. I guess my view is that the particular "payoff" in this case was failure, which is commonplace with Thrones and ASoIaF.
Still, there have been payoffs for other storylines: The explosion was payoff of Cersei's long-running arc with the Sparrow and the Faith. Tyrion killing Tywin. Dany finally sailing for Westeros.
I guess, really, it all depends on the viewer's definition of "payoff."

...Still waiting for that "Jon died but he was resurrected" payoff, though. Or was that just a plot device for a. a good cliffhanger and b. a reason for him to leave the Watch?

 

[Cornballer]

thank you for this, where did you find it?

- Making Game of Thrones: Look Over the Letters and Pages Featured in ‘Stormborn’

.

 

[SerAardvark]

thank you for this, where did you find it?

edit: sorry for double post

It's on http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/ - they have a lot of interesting behind the scenes stuff on there.

 

[The Artisan]

.

It's on http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/ - they have a lot of interesting behind the scenes stuff on there.

thank you. i was wondering for a while what the whole of the raven said. Tyrion is surprisingly formal in his parchments (except of course at the end). Then again, maybe that's just how Westerosi write their letters