Support NeoGAF

[NormalFish]

Thanks for the tips. It'll be in a medium size room..not quite a bedroom but not a living room either. 14 might be a good size for the room, but if I end up passing It's all yours! Just debating between that and something a bit larger right now. This 24 inch BVM seems perfect for gen 6 stuff but idk about n64 or earlier. Anyone have experience with that model?

I imagine it would have black bars but look quite nice. Can't promise anything, though.

 

[televator]

Follow up on the cheap scaler.

Looks like it can upscale RGB as long as there is voltage on the correct pin. I just wonder if that is something that can be overlooked in the production of an scart cable that people should be concerned about.

Also, he felt the lag without even timing it. So that's another thing that still holds up.

 

[IrishNinja]

new XRGB announced!

- zero lag
- system profiles?
- now is the time to x68000 heart on fire

Spoiler

huehuehue

 

[theSlacker]

new XRGB announced!

- zero lag
- system profiles?
- now is the time to x68000 heart on fire

Spoiler

huehuehue

 

[televator]

You forgot to mention the 4K display port features... And all for the low low price fiddy dahllaz!

 

[Peagles]

I've gotten to the stage where there's a handful of systems I can't fit on my SCART switch, and I just found this nifty extender cable so I can leave that hanging loose and put whatever system into that without pulling the switch out.

It's so thick and super shielded! I'm kinda thinking I should have got some more so I can start making my own system cables with it. Only cost me a fiver too!

Okay I'm weak. Went and bought 2 more of these, and considering going to get the last 4 from another store lol.

 

[IrishNinja]

damn, i was just looking for an extender cable a little while back, too

 

[televator]

Input lag. No matter how good you make it there will always be some in the conversion along with whatever your TV natively has. The rest depends just on how good they get it, like scanlines on 1080p and what not. Along with stuff you would expect to not make the change, like light gun support.

The NES seems like a good place to start this on, since the options are already expensive, and I do hope it turns out good. I've just noticed him being really down on RGB and SCART in a few videos since the work started on the hdmi thing.

Spoiler

Also every time someone says "problematic" all I can think of is an old timey Rube Goldberg machine that just makes problems.

Both for different reasons. I like still using the original hardware since part of my nostalgia is still tied to that, but part of the appeal of Bunnyboy's thing is that it isn't tied to being able to continuously find and mod something that has been out of production for decades.

Edit: Dammit, just noticed we are in the wrong thread too...

...and now we'll continue in a more appropriate thread.

Anyway, to a point, I'm not ever really concerned about input lag. So from my point of view, this could be the most versatile mod for the NES. Simple plug and play RGB into an HDTV. The scanline options look really in depth... Beyond what the framemeister does. All the selectable color pallets are also there and more. Not to mention the digital audio which also includes expanded audio -- all of which can be played at the correct speed while over clocking because OC'ing is also an option of the mod. Etc.

Sure, you gain some marginal input lag, but you also get so much more. If you really have input lag on the brain, chances are you could find a nice low latency HDMI or DVI monitor... Or you forgo this whole mod and stick with RGB on a pro CRT, because there is no way to completely avoid it on modern panel.

 

[Mercutio]

new XRGB announced!

- zero lag
- system profiles?
- now is the time to x68000 heart on fire

Spoiler

huehuehue

Oh my god it even has the stupid little stand...

 

[FuturusX]

It depends on what you're looking for in terms of a "good match". Wii U version is rendered at 480p native and the N64 version is 240p.

The N64 will never look as clean on a Plasma even via RGB mod into the framemeister as the Wii U VC version does.

Yes that resolution advantage is there for sure. Thanks for your input...

That's exactly what he's got, since he bought my Model 1 Genesis!

I've used it with a Framemeister and it works with the adapter they provide. I switched to a VA4 Model 2 and use a European SCART switchbox for all my stuff now, so I passed on my Japanese RGB 21 cable.



If you want to get the best signal out of a stock N64, you'll have to RGB mod it. It's simpler (but still involves soldering directly to a CPU) on older models, and requires TONS of work and a special (and expensive) chip with newer systems. If you're soldering capable and have a steady hand (and an early unit, I can't remember the serial numbers) it's not tough. The worst thing is soldering together the little RGB amplifier chip.

Frankly? I don't know if it's worth it. Wii / Wii U versions of N64 games often run better on those systems than they did on the N64. It's nice for games that never got another release on VC though.

I hear you...I hope VC versions come thick and fast...thanks.

 

[thegirlleastlikelyto]

Found a 20" Sony BVM on Craigslist, but seller says sometimes the picture jumps and makes a snap sound, and that it might need a new HV capacitor or flyback transformer.

Normally I wouldn't bother with any kind of broken CRT, but I'd love to get my hands on a 20" RGB monitor. Anyone know if this is fixable?

 

[baphomet]

Found a 20" Sony BVM on Craigslist, but seller says sometimes the picture jumps and makes a snap sound, and that it might need a new HV capacitor or flyback transformer.

Normally I wouldn't bother with any kind of broken CRT, but I'd love to get my hands on a 20" RGB monitor. Anyone know if this is fixable?

Unless its free its not worth the trouble. Even then its still probably not.

 

[Peagles]

damn, i was just looking for an extender cable a little while back, too

I went and got the other 4 lol.

Time to get cable making!

 

[thegirlleastlikelyto]

Unless its free its not worth the trouble. Even then its still probably not.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[D.Lo]

Frankly? I don't know if it's worth it. Wii / Wii U versions of N64 games often run better on those systems than they did on the N64. It's nice for games that never got another release on VC though.

Aka like 98% of the library. N64 RGB mod is so simple with the right model, I did it over ten years ago as one of my first mods.

Also virtual console is emulated and emulation just isn't the same.

I love RGB N64 on my PVM. Indiana Jones, Body Harvest, Banjo, there's something about that era, Saturn/PS1/N64 they're 3D but maintain the old gameplay paradigms from the 8/16 bit eras.

 

[theSlacker]

...and now we'll continue in a more appropriate thread.

Anyway, to a point, I'm not ever really concerned about input lag. So from my point of view, this could be the most versatile mod for the NES. Simple plug and play RGB into an HDTV. The scanline options look really in depth... Beyond what the framemeister does. All the selectable color pallets are also there and more. Not to mention the digital audio which also includes expanded audio -- all of which can be played at the correct speed while over clocking because OC'ing is also an option of the mod. Etc.

Sure, you gain some marginal input lag, but you also get so much more. If you really have input lag on the brain, chances are you could find a nice low latency HDMI or DVI monitor... Or you forgo this whole mod and stick with RGB on a pro CRT, because there is no way to completely avoid it on modern panel.

If it all works out, which I hope it does, it does sound like a great thing. I would worry about cost with all the stuff that it's doing, but don't think that will be a problem since people were already paying hundreds for the old playchoice10 ppus for rgb until not that long ago. Input lag can be a problem though and we will not know about it till it comes out. At this point we really don't know how marginal it will be.

Anyway, I wasn't even badmouthing it or anything. Just noticed him being real down on scart and rgb modding in several videos since he started getting into this hdmi thing.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Input lag can be a problem though and we will not know about it till it comes out. At this point we really don't know how marginal it will be.

Didn't they say in one of the earlier videos that it'd only have an 8-scanline buffer (out of 240 scanlines per frame)? That's a trivial amount of latency.

 

[theSlacker]

Didn't they say in one of the earlier videos that it'd only have an 8-scanline buffer (out of 240 scanlines per frame)? That's a trivial amount of latency.

Honestly, not sure what they are aiming for exactly. Follow the posts back and see that I was replying to televator asking what possible limitations of hdmi retro gaming was.

 

[SegaShack]

Found a 20" Sony BVM on Craigslist, but seller says sometimes the picture jumps and makes a snap sound, and that it might need a new HV capacitor or flyback transformer.

Normally I wouldn't bother with any kind of broken CRT, but I'd love to get my hands on a 20" RGB monitor. Anyone know if this is fixable?

My 20L5 snaps once only when it changes to 480p or back to another res, not a big deal though. Not sure if this is the same thing or a bigger issue.

 

[moltonasty]

Anyone use a JVC V1710CG, or any other JVC monitors? Or what about the Panasonic BT-H1700? Looks like they're capable of 480p. Wondering how they compare to the PVM/BVMs.

 

[Peltz]

Anyone use a JVC V1710CG, or any other JVC monitors? Or what about the Panasonic BT-H1700? Looks like they're capable of 480p. Wondering how they compare to the PVM/BVMs.

I have a Panasonic bt-h. It's better than the pvm line in my opinion.

Bancho uses a JVC that looks gorgeous too.

 

[GayForMaster]

Sorry guys if this is a ridiculous question but would upscaling the n64 to 480p then using an SLG3000 on it make it look better than simply feeding rgb? This is on a crt by the way. I'm just wondering. I know that 64 games will always look like horse shit but I'm curious as to what tools are required to achieve the best picture. I said 480p because I'm not sure what using an SLG3000 on a 480i/240p device would do since scanlines are already present on a crt during those modes.

 

[baphomet]

Sorry guys if this is a ridiculous question but would upscaling the n64 to 480p then using an SLG3000 on it make it look better than simply feeding rgb? This is on a crt by the way. I'm just wondering. I know that 64 games will always look like horse shit but I'm curious as to what tools are required to achieve the best picture. I said 480p because I'm not sure what using an SLG3000 on a 480i/240p device would do since scanlines are already present on a crt during those modes.

There's really no reason to do it. It'll remove half the resolution with the scanlines and youll be getting what's basically a 240p image. Only reason to do it would be if the monitor didn't accept 240p.

 

[GayForMaster]

There's really no reason to do it. It'll remove half the resolution with the scanlines and youll be getting what's basically a 240p image. Only reason to do it would be if the monitor didn't accept 240p.

Ah... of course. Does SLG3000 let you adjust scanline thickness?

 

[thegirlleastlikelyto]

My 20L5 snaps once only when it changes to 480p or back to another res, not a big deal though. Not sure if this is the same thing or a bigger issue.

From the posting, it sounds like this happens during normal output, rather than when switching resolution.

 

[televator]

Just had some fun running through my N64 library on the FM. I really like the movie mode on the FM for 480i games. Factor 5 Star Wars games look really sharp. There's obvious combing but I'd rather have combing and sharp detail Vs a smudged up and filtered image.

Edit: also just thinking out loud. I like to describe the N64's video output as "barely there". It looks very ghostly. Like a memory.

 

[NormalFish]

Just had some fun running through my N64 library on the FM. I really like the movie mode on the FM for 480i games. Factor 5 Star Wars games look really sharp. There's obvious combing but I'd rather have combing and sharp detail Vs a smudged up and filtered image.

Edit: also just thinking out loud. I like to describe the N64's video output as "barely there". It looks very ghostly. Like a memory.

yeah, movie mode seems to be recommended over natural by a number of people who've done quite a bit of testing. I haven't had the chance to confirm.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Aka like 98% of the library. N64 RGB mod is so simple with the right model, I did it over ten years ago as one of my first mods.

Also virtual console is emulated and emulation just isn't the same.

I love RGB N64 on my PVM. Indiana Jones, Body Harvest, Banjo, there's something about that era, Saturn/PS1/N64 they're 3D but maintain the old gameplay paradigms from the 8/16 bit eras.

A shame the n64 VC library will just always suck with how much they're blocked from using. I even doubt they'll release the two Zelda games on the wiiu with the 3ds remasters now.

 

[fvng]

So I"m looking for a device that can input a ypbpr cable (from my ps2) into a converter box that can upscale to 1080 and clean up the image in the process. (hdmi output). some of the devices i've seen on amazon only have ypbpr video inputs which is bad design since it means you have to connect the red/white audio cable into your tv or audio receiver using extension cables. awkward. Any advice?

 

[llaannccee]

Stupid question time. Do the Sony pvm monitors have speakers built in?

 

[Mercutio]

So I"m looking for a device that can input a RGB (from my ps2) into a converter box that can upscale to 1080 and clean up the image in the process. (hdmi output). some of the devices i've seen on amazon only have rgb input which is bad design since it means you have to connect the red/white audio cable into your tv or audio receiver using extension cables. awkward. Any advice?

You pretty much want an XRGB Mini if you want a clean image with no lag.

 

[SummitAve]

Stupid question time. Do the Sony pvm monitors have speakers built in?

They have a speaker. Mono. Mine works well enough but you'll need external if you want stereo.

 

[Khaz]

some of the devices i've seen on amazon only have rgb input which is bad design since it means you have to connect the red/white audio cable into your tv or audio receiver using extension cables.

I suspect you are confusing Composite or Component, and RGB. RGB only comes in the form of a Scart cable containing all Video and Audio signals, there are no separate Red and White cables. Component have three cables coloured green, red and blue, but don't actually carry RGB signals.

In any case the answer will always be an upscaler from Micomsoft.

 

[fvng]

You pretty much want an XRGB Mini if you want a clean image with no lag.

Is it this?

http://solarisjapan.com/products/xrgb-mini-framemeister-compact-up-scaler-unit

I don't see an Component input on it.

I suspect you are confusing Composite or Component, and RGB. RGB only comes in the form of a Scart cable containing all Video and Audio signals, there are no separate Red and White cables. Component have three cables coloured green, red and blue, but don't actually carry RGB signals.

In any case the answer will always be an upscaler from Micomsoft.

Allow me to clarify. My component (ypbpr) cables I use from my PS2 have the standard (red/blue/green) plugs and the red/white plugs for audio. So it's a total of 5 plugs rgb, and red white. There needs to be the red/white cables to transmit audio since, audio cant be transmitted via the rgb cables, and the optical out on the ps2 is strictly for dvd movies.

I am not using composite cable for video.

in other words

something that has these 5 inputs above (rgb, and red/white audio) but can upscale to 1080 with a cleaned up image and via hdmi

 

[sixteen-bit]

Framemeister does component video; you'll just need a ypbpr to D-terminal adapter

 

[fvng]

Frammeister seems a little steep. $300+ is there a more affordable solution that gives comparable results? 480 to 1080 on a ps2 using YPbPr cables.

 

[Khaz]

Allow me to clarify. My component (ypbpr) cables I use from my PS2 have the standard (red/blue/green) plugs and the red/white plugs for audio. So it's a total of 5 plugs rgb, and red white. There needs to be the red/white cables to transmit audio since, audio cant be transmitted via the rgb cables, and the optical out on the ps2 is strictly for dvd movies.

It's not. RGB is the name of a specific video signal, where each Red, Green and Blue subcomponents of a picture are carried in different wires, unencoded, while a fourth wire carries the synchronisation signal.

Component cables, although having cables coloured with red, green and blue paint, do not carry RGB signals. They carry encoded YUV or YPbPr depending on your region. Component signals don't work on RGB displays or converters.

You do not want to use "rgb" to talk about Component cables, regardless of the colours of the plastic sheath.

 

[fvng]

It's not. RGB is the name of a specific video signal, where each Red, Green and Blue subcomponents of a picture are carried in different wires, unencoded, while a fourth wire carries the synchronisation signal.

Component cables, although having cables coloured with red, green and blue paint, do not carry RGB signals. They carry encoded YUV or YPbPr depending on your region. Component signals don't work on RGB displays or converters.

You do not want to use "rgb" to talk about Component cables, regardless of the colours of the plastic sheath.

I understand. So going back to what I was saying my ps2 cable has the YPbPr video plugs, and the red and white cables for audio. some of the boxes I've seen online only accept the YPbPr signal but do no accomdate the red/white audio plugs in addition to the 3 YPbPr plugs.

I posted an image to the one above that actually has a perfect input as far as what i'm looking for but it looks like it only converts the signal to hdmi output and doesn't actually upscale or clean the image.

 

[NormalFish]

Is it this?

http://solarisjapan.com/products/xrgb-mini-framemeister-compact-up-scaler-unit

I don't see an Component input on it.

Allow me to clarify. My component (ypbpr) cables I use from my PS2 have the standard (red/blue/green) plugs and the red/white plugs for audio. So it's a total of 5 plugs rgb, and red white. There needs to be the red/white cables to transmit audio since, audio cant be transmitted via the rgb cables, and the optical out on the ps2 is strictly for dvd movies.

I am not using composite cable for video.

in other words

something that has these 5 inputs above (rgb, and red/white audio) but can upscale to 1080 with a cleaned up image and via hdmi

Referring to component cables as RGB is really going to confuse people. And the XRGB has a Component -> DTerminal cable that can be bought with it.

 

[fvng]

Referring to component cables as RGB is really going to confuse people. And the XRGB has a Component -> DTerminal cable that can be bought with it.

I know, that's why I've fixed my verbiage. I am sure you can understand how people can mix up the two.

 

[Khaz]

Frammeister seems a little steep. $300+ is there a more affordable solution that gives comparable results? 480 to 1080 on a ps2 using YPbPr cables.

Yeh maybe we need something in the OP. Although the "best" could mean best picture, or best price, or best picture for a particular price, or something else all together. It's hard to know what people are wanting without further questions usually, which makes things tricky.

It would be good to somehow avoid the whole "what's the best?"-"omg no way I'm not spending that much"-"what about this $30 upscaler?" rinse and repeat we have going somehow though lol.

Eh

 

[fvng]

Eh

best affordable solution

 

[Khaz]

best affordable solution

Cheap upscaler boxes are worthless. They are only good if your display only accept HDMI for some reason. And by "good", I mean they allow to plug you stuff while adding a lot of conversion and upscaling artifacts and input lag.

If your display accept Component, plug your cable directly in it. Don't bother with a converter box. It's very likely your TV will do a better job at upscaling than a cheap box.

If you want fancy stuff like a good looking image with visible scanlines and almost no added lag, then an XRGB is the only solution. No cheap converter will satisfy you.

If you are really cheap but with strong arms and some space in your room, you should consider getting a CRT with Component inputs. No upscaler box on an LCD will get you a picture as good as this.

 

[fvng]

Cheap upscaler boxes are worthless. They are only good if your display only accept HDMI for some reason. And by "good", I mean they allow to plug you stuff while adding a lot of conversion and upscaling artifacts and input lag.

If your display accept Component, plug your cable directly in it. Don't bother with a converter box. It's very likely your TV will do a better job at upscaling than a cheap box.

If you want fancy stuff like a good looking image with visible scanlines and almost no added lag, then an XRGB is the only solution. No cheap converter will satisfy you.

thanks, what's the point of wanting scanline? for retro appeal? that's not really something I'd want for ps2, though I can maybe see the appeal of that on snes or older consoles

 

[fvng]

Cheap upscaler boxes are worthless. They are only good if your display only accept HDMI for some reason. And by "good", I mean they allow to plug you stuff while adding a lot of conversion and upscaling artifacts and input lag.

If your display accept Component, plug your cable directly in it. Don't bother with a converter box. It's very likely your TV will do a better job at upscaling than a cheap box.

If you want fancy stuff like a good looking image with visible scanlines and almost no added lag, then an XRGB is the only solution. No cheap converter will satisfy you.

If you are really cheap but with strong arms and some space in your room, you should consider getting a CRT with Component inputs. No upscaler box on an LCD will get you a picture as good as this.

this is the box i was leaning towards

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EOLR9K0/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I need to check if my tv upscales the signal to 1080 or if it just adjusts the resolution to the native ps2 resolution

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Ordered a mini a couple weeks ago. Waiting for it to arrive from Japan sucks. Wasn't so bad until my cables started showing up. Now I'm just sitting here looking at my systems and RGB cables. Just waiting...

 

[Khaz]

I need to check if my tv upscales the signal to 1080 or if it just adjusts the resolution to the native ps2 resolution

Your TV upscales. all fixed-resolution displays (LCD,LED,Plasma, anything not CRT) upscale the image to their native resolution. If it didn't, you'd have a small image in the center of your screen with black borders around it.

upscale and adjust are synonyms in your sentence.

 

[Bodacious]

Frammeister seems a little steep. $300+ is there a more affordable solution that gives comparable results? 480 to 1080 on a ps2 using YPbPr cables.

It was more like $500 a couple years ago. Exchange rate fluctuations.

 

[Mercutio]

thanks, what's the point of wanting scanline? for retro appeal? that's not really something I'd want for ps2, though I can maybe see the appeal of that on snes or older consoles

I use an XRGB mini and I don't really care for scan lines personally. I do see the point of them though. Pixel art often took the scan lines into account, and that deliniation of space and form looks pretty cool in many situations.

But really, we're just lucky that a product like the XRGB mini exists, at any price. It's a thing made specifically for our hobby, not some chunk of AV gear repurposed. It does exactly what we need it to do, and I don't have to worry about the display that I'm plugging my gear into.

I'm just a little tired if hearing people ask for something cheaper; $300 isn't an insane amount to save up toward, and nobody seems to listen when we say "there isn't a good cheap alternative. " If there was, we'd be using it.

 

[brainpann]

I use an XRGB mini and I don't really care for scan lines personally. I do see the point of them though. Pixel art often took the scan lines into account, and that deliniation of space and form looks pretty cool in many situations.

But really, we're just lucky that a product like the XRGB mini exists, at any price. It's a thing made specifically for our hobby, not some chunk of AV gear repurposed. It does exactly what we need it to do, and I don't have to worry about the display that I'm plugging my gear into.

I'm just a little tired if hearing people ask for something cheaper; $300 isn't an insane amount to save up toward, and nobody seems to listen when we say "there isn't a good cheap alternative. " If there was, we'd be using it.

Pretty much all of this except for the scanlines bit. I need them on my old consoles.

And for anyone on the fence about the XRGB mini, 300 is a fantastic price for this product. I bought mine a couple years ago for about 460 and thought it was well worth it then. Your games will shine and it makes playing them even more enjoyable. Other than a few minor grievences, such as the couple of seconds of delay when a game might switch resolutions or lack of being able to save console specific settings, its nearly perfect. I dont imagine we will get a mini successor anytime soon and these thing tend to sell for nearly as much used as they do new. I sold my XRGB 2-plus for about 250 to offset the cost of the mini, and it seems like they still sell for as much. I see used XRGB 3s still go for about 300.