not quite sure if it does analog vga though. There's a thread on a forum about it somewhere
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
not quite sure if it does analog vga though. There's a thread on a forum about it somewhere
It solves the issue I have entirely.
I thought I'd never get decent RGB quality out of my current console. This sidesteps the problem perfectly, and it'll look great on my TV.
ah that must be the issue, friend I bought the genesis from claimed it looked fine on his xrgb.
What sort of signal is it carrying? RGB? YpbCr?
It would be fine. Usable, not great, but fine. Does your TV play nice with it? A lot of HDTVs don't play nice with Chinese scalers.
The biggest problem with the GBS-8220 is the image tends to be a little washed out/high on contrast. But in general it isn't bad. Get a scanline generator from Toodles and it's a pretty good setup if you can't afford a Frame Meister or a XRGB2+.
Composite isn't really the issue based on what Carmack was saying... sounds like a sync problem. Not taking into account that composite (obviously) looks like trash.
i was planning to mod my N64 for RGB already so i was looking for the correct cables since i prefer the simplest mods and those do need different cables than what i have.
IrishNinja
Member
ah, i forgot there's a variation depending on the amp for the signal, as i recall - i checked both with my modder & retro before buying, and it worked out.
Bar81
Member
There is that, but I was more commenting on using crappy third party RBG cables.
Thanks for the advice. I'd rather try an 'entry-level' solution first before I save up money for the real deal (Framemeister). I've become obsessed now with getting that 240p+line-doubler+scanlines image I see posted everywhere, and I think for $40(GBS)+$20(SLG) it's in my price range. It'll definitely be better than what I'm getting now: nice, popping colours and crisp pixels, but at an unfortunate 480i signal. A lot of effects don't look proper at 480i, and I can't stand that combing effect.
My TV is a 2005-era Samsung 42" plasma, and it does have a VGA input that I currently use for my 360. So I'm curious to see if it will work or not, and the investment isn't a great loss if it doesn't work just right.
Is there anywhere you can still buy Toodles' T-SLG, though? I really, really want one for my cab (way cheaper than buying another FM just to get scanlines for my 360/PSN/Dreamcast fighting games & shmups), but he's been out of stock forever.
The only other scanline generators I know of are single purpose (SLG3000 for VGA, Hanzo for Dreamcast).
So it seems to me that not even the Frameister gets the look of a scan line 100%. Nor is there any manner of getting the original and distinct individual pixel look [caused by shadow masks in CRTs] on modern displays. Am I correct in this? I'm not trying to annoy any non CRT heretics 
, I'm just trying to get my facts straight. So anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I've been binging on info of CRTs, 240p, up scaling, wiz-bangs, and do-hickeys for 2 days.
, I'm just trying to get my facts straight. So anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.I've been binging on info of CRTs, 240p, up scaling, wiz-bangs, and do-hickeys for 2 days.
You got yours already?! Excellent. I hope mine's in the mail box too.... BRB
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Scanlines aren't even identical across different CRTs.So it seems to me that not even the Frameister gets the look of a scan line 100%. Nor is there any manner of getting the original and distinct individual pixel look [caused by shadow masks in CRTs] on modern displays. Am I correct in this? I'm not trying to annoy any non CRT heretics
I've been binging on info of CRTs, 240p, up scaling, wiz-bangs, and do-hickeys for 2 days.
Ah, yeah, seems like Toodles hasn't had them in a while. Strange. Cheaper and better than the SLG3000. Maybe you can get a few people on GAF together for a "group buy" from Arcadeforge to save a little money.
televator said:
Nope, nothing does, not even high-end scanline generators. It's different display technology. The Frame Meister is less accurate as well because of how it actually renders the scanlines in the image (I'm actually not sure if this is still an issue; I'm on old FW and I haven't touched mine in a long time).
If you want "true" scanlines, get a CRT.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
When I was younger, I lumped them together with excessive screen curvature and overscan as just another flaw or shortcoming of display technology that got in the way of displaying a "proper," "clean" picture.
And I still do.
encephalon
Member
Wait, what? So the cable posted isn't actually JP21 ... and you need some sort of converter?
Well, that is the elephant in the room with the upscaler. It will never look the same. But it can look better for certain aspects.
Given the viewing distance and larger displays that we currently game on (usually 40" or more) the upsclaler does an amazing job. Mind-blowing, often. And in things like color it way blows a CRT out of the water. Some systems, specifically, the Genesis, really shine.
But, Framemeister is hardly plug and play...requiring considerable setup and tweeking. It also fails pretty bad with 480p stuff. DC and VGA can't be used straight out.
I would not trade it for anything, though. Different approach, different results but an amazing tool for older systems on modern displays. I'm not one of those CRT OR Upscaler types...I just use both and choose the one that fits the mood, is convenient, or I prefer at the moment.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, scanline accuracy isn't a super high priority for me, honestly
...how so? 480p stuff in picture looks great to me. and yeah, no VGA but my DC has VGA to HDMI, works like a charm.
...how so? 480p stuff in picture looks great to me. and yeah, no VGA but my DC has VGA to HDMI, works like a charm.
Phatosaurus
Member
Dear RetroGAF,
The only older console I still play is a PAL GameCube. I use the standard analogue video output (yellow/red/white) and I'm playing it on a HDTV. As you can imagine, it's pretty blurry.
Is it worth upgrading to an RGB cable? They're disgustingly expensive on eBay, ranging from £60-100+.
The only older console I still play is a PAL GameCube. I use the standard analogue video output (yellow/red/white) and I'm playing it on a HDTV. As you can imagine, it's pretty blurry.
Is it worth upgrading to an RGB cable? They're disgustingly expensive on eBay, ranging from £60-100+.
sixteen-bit
Member
It might ultimately be cheaper to get a used Wii with cables then.
Phatosaurus
Member
Dunno why I never thought of that. I can get a Wii for £30 and the cables for less than £10.
I'll go with that and sell my GameCube on then.
Get a used wii. Get component cables for it. Install the homebrew channel and cfg usb loader.
congratulations, you now have a region free gamecube, and you can rip all of your games to a hard drive. You can even play them in widescreen. magical shit!
The cable is definitely Euro-SCART. I suspected it would have to be after that video posted above showed someone using a SCART to HDMI converter. The question for me was whether it would behave with an NTSC Saturn, or have sync issues (or just not work at all). It works fine.
Framemeister uses mini-din 8 pin input for RGB. JP21 cables use the mini-din adapter packaged with the Framemeister. That adapter doesn't work with SCART cables; for those you need a different mini-din adapter w/ converter, like this one (UK seller). It works perfectly.
Give me your settings! Specifically for PS2...which I've struggled for a year to get looking passable. The difference between the perfect PS1/2 240p stuff and the crummy 480p stuff on the Mini in so shockingly wide I find it incredible.
Wii I've gotten pretty good, so I tend to leave it set for that.
Give me yours for Wii, please.
As noted above, I'm having a little trouble getting the widescreen to display correctly.Give me yours for Wii, please.
Definitely. Once I get home. I'm gonna have to re-do it since I was connecting my PSP/Go last week and jacked up my Wii settings.
I really do intend to get a second Mini for some of my other systems. More for convenience.
But they appear properly as areas of no information on CRTs. They're black, as opposed to how they just look like darker colored lines on Frameister. And that's not getting into the shadow mask effect that really pronounces the look of a pixel as more visible individual point on the screen.
Are you saying the Frame Meister more or less just paints lines on the up scaled image?
Also, I actually thought that scan line generators could do proper job if under a very specific setup at least. Like if you used them in down scaling 480i/p signals into 240p signals and then fed them into a CRT. Maybe I misunderstand what a scan line generator does? I'm currently using a Sony CRT that is fed trough component but I find the technicalities of all this interesting.
My understanding is that it's more a limitation of the consoles themselves. Only having to render half an image through a venetian blind effect probably saves a lot of resources. I think it was intended by the console manufacturers to display games like that.
I really would prefer no curvature, but I can tolerate it now. I also think the PVM/BVM TVs allow you to view the entire frame. I wonder if there is a flat CRT PVM?
Scan lines are an artifact of interlaced display technologies. The old consoles output progressive signals.
Right, thanks for pointing that out. For some reason I was thinking that 240p included the black zones. But it makes sense that they don't actually exist in the raw image and of course it's the display that makes the lines.
encephalon
Member
Ok thanks. I'm using XRGB3, not the Framemeister. Money saved.
I just got my retro game room restored back to its former glory. In my room, I have a 36 inch Sony Trinitron. I got my AV Famicom, Japanese Mega Drive and Sharp Twin Famicom hooked up right now. I gotta say, the composite video output on the Mega Drive is junkier than I remember it being. My TV only has component in (hence no true RGB). Would it be in my best interest to get a Euro SCART cable and run it through an SCART to component convertor (would there be lag) or would a physical mod be more ideal?
RGB converted to component is always better than composite. You shouldn't get any lag unless the converter is digital for some reason.
Not sure what you mean by hardware mod, the MD supports RGB out of the box. Just make sure to get a raw sync cable.
I didn't know if a first gen one supported RGB out of the box (I know the Famicom doesn't) so that helps, thanks!
Bar81
Member
Of course it does.
Main thing is that you need different cables depending on the model. RetroRGB.com has all the details.
-----------------
Woohoo! Boxing up my NES to send it off for modding: NESRGB PPU, multi-out, stereo mod, and preventative maintenance. Stay safe, little NES.
Excite!
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
So I have to ask.
I mostly own all of the classic games from nes to today. My NES and SNES games are in storage. Is there any option out there to play backed up SNES games, but in a setting that is the exact same or close to using the snes? I know emulators generally aren't very accurate when it comes to certain things and based on this thread it seems games look the best when played via their original console upscaled via one of the XRGB devices.
Also is there a good way to play FFV and FFVI (GBA) on a TV without using a Game Boy Advance player?
I assume playing Earthbound on Wii U is less acceptable than playing on a SNES upscaled to 1080p via a XRGB-mini?
I mostly own all of the classic games from nes to today. My NES and SNES games are in storage. Is there any option out there to play backed up SNES games, but in a setting that is the exact same or close to using the snes? I know emulators generally aren't very accurate when it comes to certain things and based on this thread it seems games look the best when played via their original console upscaled via one of the XRGB devices.
Also is there a good way to play FFV and FFVI (GBA) on a TV without using a Game Boy Advance player?
I assume playing Earthbound on Wii U is less acceptable than playing on a SNES upscaled to 1080p via a XRGB-mini?
baphomet
Member
If you want to actually use a SNES your best bet is an Super Everdrive. It loads the games off an sd card and as far as i know is 100% accurate. Some of the games with extra chips aren't compatible, but there is also SD2SNES or something similar that supports those (minus the SFX chip. Its also twice the price). The guy makes them for most all systems and they are great.
baphomet
Member
Board only is the way to go. Just sacrifice some sports game and dremel a hole for the sd card. Itll save you quite a bit. If you want dsp1 support youll have to take the dsp and crystal out of a pilotwings and solder it in there. That isnt necessary though, just for dsp1 games.
Yeah, i have the SD2SNES, Mega Everdrive, Everdrive NES and Everdrive 64. All great bits of kit, has saved game carts and boxes degrading even more especially the Nintendo ones
Heres a test i did of the XRGB-mini on my Super Famicom.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUkffmjwaFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUkffmjwaFg
baphomet
Member
Of course it is.
As far as I understand, it's fine. We just don't talk about piracy.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, pretty sure even Stumps said so - common sense here, just flashcarts for homebrew etc, obviously no linking to ROM's and the like.
- Status