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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Shadow Hog
Member
Cables arrived.
I can definitely see an improvement with the Genesis cable. For some reason, my XRGB-mini removed all the jailbars on S-Video, so I wasn't able to see those go away like I wanted (*shrug*), but the rainbow discoloration that was visible around vertical lines? Gone. Quite a clean image, as a result.
SNES and N64, can't notice QUITE the difference, but the image is clean all the same, which is good.
Only issue is that I'd ordered two of the SNES/N64 cable, and only one arrived... I've already informed retro_console_accessories about it. Also inquired if she still does NTSC-J Saturn SCART cables or not... (not JP21, and not PAL Saturn SCART cables)
I can definitely see an improvement with the Genesis cable. For some reason, my XRGB-mini removed all the jailbars on S-Video, so I wasn't able to see those go away like I wanted (*shrug*), but the rainbow discoloration that was visible around vertical lines? Gone. Quite a clean image, as a result.
SNES and N64, can't notice QUITE the difference, but the image is clean all the same, which is good.
Only issue is that I'd ordered two of the SNES/N64 cable, and only one arrived... I've already informed retro_console_accessories about it. Also inquired if she still does NTSC-J Saturn SCART cables or not... (not JP21, and not PAL Saturn SCART cables)
Wait, what's the difference between an NTSC-J RGB cable and an JP21 cable? Japan has two different types of Saturn RGB cables?
If she is making NTSC-U/C cables let me know, I really need one.
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Hey Boss - what settings are you using for your Framemeister with the Wii? I hooked mine up last night (Component/D-terminal), and even though I have Framemeister set to Auto for aspect ratio, and the Wii to 480p/widescreen. But I have black bars on the side for the Wii menu. If I set Framemeister aspect ratio to 16:9 it's full screen but looks wide/zoomed almost.
I only use the Wii for Gamecube games that aren't 16:9 so it's not a huge issue, but I'd like to know if there's a way to fix it. Curious to test out whether Wii games look better via Framemeister upscaling or Wii U upscaling.
(As an aside, I was surprised how much scanlines improved Gamecube games. Was not really expecting that. I should get a real Gamecube someday, but the price of component cables makes it too pricey.)
If she is making NTSC-U/C cables let me know, I really need one.
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Hey Boss - what settings are you using for your Framemeister with the Wii? I hooked mine up last night (Component/D-terminal), and even though I have Framemeister set to Auto for aspect ratio, and the Wii to 480p/widescreen. But I have black bars on the side for the Wii menu. If I set Framemeister aspect ratio to 16:9 it's full screen but looks wide/zoomed almost.
I only use the Wii for Gamecube games that aren't 16:9 so it's not a huge issue, but I'd like to know if there's a way to fix it. Curious to test out whether Wii games look better via Framemeister upscaling or Wii U upscaling.
(As an aside, I was surprised how much scanlines improved Gamecube games. Was not really expecting that. I should get a real Gamecube someday, but the price of component cables makes it too pricey.)
Shadow Hog
Member
No, officially Japan only has JP21... which has a different wiring than SCART does, at the TV connector end. My other cables are SCART, in case I get a switch later down the line (because SCART switches should be easier to find).
So you'd think "well, just get a SCART cable, then", but as noted on an earlier page, on the Saturn end of the cable, there's yet another discrepancy; a pin that's used for Sync in one is used for something else (+5v?) in the other. So basically:
- SCART/NTSC: Does not exist officially, want.
- SCART/PAL: Exists officially, don't want.
- JP21/NTSC: Exists officially, don't want.
- JP21/PAL: Does not exist officially, why would anyone want
Soldering iron and a bit of solder and you can reconfigure the cable to your needs.
Just like anything outputting audio.Soulhouf said:
Can you elaborate? I have no idea of what you're talking about.
This is the one I got BTW:
Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? My audio output has always been like this before the optical:
When you said incompatible do you mean it won't plug in, or it plugs in but the cable is setup incorrectly? If it's the latter, you can open the cable at either the DIN or SCART end and rewire it to your needs (using a solder iron).
Yeah. I guess i'm more thinking audio equipment - stereo components have female outputs on the back, and the user uses male to male RCA cables to connect. The reason why they don't just RCA cables coming out the back is so that the user can use male to male cables of any length rather than a preset length, can upgrade the cables, and it tends to be (with any Female/Male connector) that if a connector is going to get damaged, it's the male one, and so you only have to replace the male to male cable rather than the device.Soulhouf said:
baphomet
Member
So a user on the Shmups board named Grambo posted some pictures of his NESRGB board. I hope he doesn't mind, I uploaded them to imgur as I'm not a fan of imageshack. It looks amazing. Actually even better than i was expecting. First 2 shots of Vice: Project Doom are running on his PVM-8045Q and the rest are on running through his Framemeister on a 50'' plasma.
IrishNinja
Member
^hnnngghhhh that's me exact setup, and that's what i wanted to see! time to go bother that guy to see when the next wave is out
baphomet
Member
If you check out the thread on the shmups board, the same guy who poste these pics posted his install. As far as the install, the most difficult part would be removing the ppu. If you have the tools to do that correctly and have some decent soldering experience you can probably handle it. Once you get the board installed, its just running the correct wires to their designated spots on the outputs/voltage regulator and mounting them. The board and cable shipped are close to $130 though.
Im pretty sure thats the composite palette in the pics. The rgb one has a kinda bright yellow on the title screen. Either way, it looks amazing in my opinion.
sixteen-bit
Member
Looks great. I need to get one.
Apparently I had my saturation set way high on my mini, because this was how SMB3 looked on my framemeister with the PC10 PPU:
Then I turned down the saturation, and now it looks much closer to the one in the nesrgb pics.
Apparently I had my saturation set way high on my mini, because this was how SMB3 looked on my framemeister with the PC10 PPU:
Then I turned down the saturation, and now it looks much closer to the one in the nesrgb pics.
Wow. Ha, at the retro mode. Looks fantastic, even cartoony so saturated. Maybe even too colorful!
Mod seems a bit challenging for me. I would want to do it on a Fami anyways.
Apparently I had my saturation set way high on my mini, because this was how SMB3 looked on my framemeister with the PC10 PPU:
Then I turned down the saturation, and now it looks much closer to the one in the nesrgb pics.
Looks sooo good!!!!...just a damn shame it never looked this good in our childhoods when it really mattered!!!
Shadow Hog
Member
Apparently I had my saturation set way high on my mini, because this was how SMB3 looked on my framemeister with the PC10 PPU:
Then I turned down the saturation, and now it looks much closer to the one in the nesrgb pics.
That looks fantastic! I will have to try this on mine when i get home.
Has anyone seen any PC10 vs NESRGB comparisons yet?
Is he using RGB? Composite looks like shit through the framemeister. Looking at the picture, he set up an NES with composite. Of course it's going to look better on a good CRT.
Still, there are zero convergence or geometry issues when it comes to the Framemeister. What a terrible, dismissive tweet. Try saying that again using RGB, lol.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I agree.
There are valid reasons to prefer the aesthetic of a CRT... But I don't think a NES running through composite - likely in the wrong settings - is going to be a fair test.
Yeah, considering if you have a solid CRT (and RGB) it will always be better. Now, there are a lot of shitty CRTs out there...even Wegas. Or at least they've aged and become shittier. But the Mini/upscaler offers a lot of things like flexibilty, much larger picture sizes without dilution, and cleanliness (which could be considered too clinical). Certain situaltions I dig the upscaled look, others that of a CRT.
baphomet
Member
Well the picture you quoted is using the pc10 and the pictures i posted from Grambo are using the composite color palette with the nesrgb board. Good thing about the board is it supports the regular composite palette, the pc10, and a third palette from an emulator all selectable from a switch.
Once he starts taking more orders Ill have a few more if people are looking to have them installed.
Yeah, i am aware of all that. ;-). Specifically, i am looking for a direct PC10 to NESRGB comparison. I already have a PC10 in my fami and considering the nesrgb board for my toaster.
baphomet
Member
Oh, so youre wanting to see the same palette on both of them right? The pc10 and the nesrgb's pc10? Sorry i misunderstood the question. I think theyve shown the actual palettes for the different settings on the shmups board, but i dont think weve seen any actual gameplay comparisons. The pics from the user i posted has his hardwired for the composite palette so we probably wont see any real comparison shots until people start getting these in.
I would say go for it. Its fairly cheap and should be much easier than installing a pc10 ppu.
That looks identical to running SMB3 via BNES with geom's CRT shader.
in other words, it looks fucking amazing. It's incredible to see what a clean image the NES is capable of putting out
sixteen-bit
Member
Carmack is probably savvy enough to choose the best video options.
Yeah but you can see the framemeister box freshly opened in the pic. He clearly only tested the NES and then tweeted that. I'm sure he'll see the greatness of the framemeister soon
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Considering how particular he is about latency, the mini's ~24ms would be unacceptable to him anyway.
(And it's the main reason I've never seriously considered one, too.)
IrishNinja
Member
seriously, plc268's pics...damn. anyone not wow'd by that needs to boot up an NES - not an emu - and look at how washed out the colors look on a modern set via composite. it's a world away from that, really need this in my life!
agreed, and only recently was a workaround made more affordable! still likely close to $200 to get your system like that but i imagine his PPU solution was a bit costlier...
ive never really measured these things, so i have to ask: what's your threshold? for me, rhythm & twitchy games (SHMUPs, some fighters etc) were broken by playing PS1 over PS3; now playing them on my lag-inducing plasma but upscaled via XRGB mini - well, it's been years since i played on a CRT but it's not longer noticeable for me, which is fantastic. are there any genres/titles in particular for you that make that ~24ms unacceptable?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Oh, I think most games are playable under 2 frames (34ms) of latency, and that's the point where I can explicitly notice it, but once you've gone over 1 frame you've gone well beyond the threshold I'm willing to spend $300+ on.
IrishNinja
Member
^perfectly understandable, though i'm glad it's within 2 frames & negligible for me, as i've enjoyed the crap out of revisiting so many classics. hopefully a similar or next iteration of the XRGB drives prices down to a more acceptable level for you & others sometime too.
man never would have expected carmack to be such a n00b he's clearly not using RGB
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'm just waiting on the RetroPix at this point. IIRC, it's a simple linedoubler with VGA ports for input and output, accepting 15khz (240p) and outputting 31khz (480p) with no processing applied and thus keeping latency down into the microsecond range.
So once I have one of those the setup will be something like: console -> RGB cable -> sync stripper with VGA cable output -> RetroPix -> monitor. The Asus monitor I'm using doesn't seem to lag any more for 480p than it does for native 1080p, so that should all work out fine. As an added bonus, it also means I'll be able to use my old 31khz CRT VGA monitor as well, should I feel like busting it out.
So once I have one of those the setup will be something like: console -> RGB cable -> sync stripper with VGA cable output -> RetroPix -> monitor. The Asus monitor I'm using doesn't seem to lag any more for 480p than it does for native 1080p, so that should all work out fine. As an added bonus, it also means I'll be able to use my old 31khz CRT VGA monitor as well, should I feel like busting it out.
sixteen-bit
Member
I still have an old 31khz CRT monitor for tate games on 360 and Dreamcast
IrishNinja
Member
^which games do you tate on DC?
sixteen-bit
Member
Ikaruga mostly. Gunbird 2 has glitchy sprites over VGA.
Want to get DC Under Defeat eventually but dat price.
Want to get DC Under Defeat eventually but dat price.
Yea, I put it on retro mode because it eliminated some of the NES overscan junk. Not all of it though, but it looks fine enough.
I do still plan on doing the nesrgb mod, but I still get faint jailbars from time to time with the pc10 ppu. I've heard that the nesrgb will completely remove jailbars and such.
But yea, you guys will be amazed at the quality if you get modded for the nesrgb. Having svideo or rgb out just puts out a crazy clean image compared to rf and composite.
Yeah, It's a shame about the lag. Sometimes I forget about it.
I've been meaning to ask, what number setting is everyone using for the scanlines? I could never decide if the default 90 was enough.
I posted this in the CRT thread. Figured it would make sense to post it here also.
I have a Sony 4:3 CRT HDTV (32"). I've largely been considering giving it away and replacing it with a LED.. but I came across something rather interesting.
So I hooked the NES up to it (for the first time ever in 11 years) and the screen was just fucked. I might go back and do a before and after screenshot to show you. But the long story short some games were barely playable (Bump N Jump). Some games were absolutely not playable (Metroid, Zelda 2). Metroid the screen was an utter mess. You couldn't even make stuff out.
So I decided to go through the menu and MAYBE something was in there that would help. What I came across was essentially control over the TVs line doubler!!!!! Three settings
Interlaced
Progressive
CinemaMotion (3:2)
So wtf!?!?!? Let's try progressive (knowing the NES is 240p).
I'll. be. god. damned.
Worked perfectly. All games tested so far have a flawless picture. Obviously no scan lines. Not sure on some other stuff. And it's a flat screen Trinitron/Wega (not a fan of the old CRT flat screens). But beyond that I through like 6 games at it and all showed up perfectly (and MUCH better than my LCD with scaling done by my receiver)
So I figured I would try my other 240p consoles. And when I start messing with SCART-to-YCrCb conversion, the end result there is a 240p signal as well, right? So even though I'll be plugging those in over component, I would still set it to progressive, correct?
I have a Sony 4:3 CRT HDTV (32"). I've largely been considering giving it away and replacing it with a LED.. but I came across something rather interesting.
So I hooked the NES up to it (for the first time ever in 11 years) and the screen was just fucked. I might go back and do a before and after screenshot to show you. But the long story short some games were barely playable (Bump N Jump). Some games were absolutely not playable (Metroid, Zelda 2). Metroid the screen was an utter mess. You couldn't even make stuff out.
So I decided to go through the menu and MAYBE something was in there that would help. What I came across was essentially control over the TVs line doubler!!!!! Three settings
Interlaced
Progressive
CinemaMotion (3:2)
So wtf!?!?!? Let's try progressive (knowing the NES is 240p).
I'll. be. god. damned.
Worked perfectly. All games tested so far have a flawless picture. Obviously no scan lines. Not sure on some other stuff. And it's a flat screen Trinitron/Wega (not a fan of the old CRT flat screens). But beyond that I through like 6 games at it and all showed up perfectly (and MUCH better than my LCD with scaling done by my receiver)
So I figured I would try my other 240p consoles. And when I start messing with SCART-to-YCrCb conversion, the end result there is a 240p signal as well, right? So even though I'll be plugging those in over component, I would still set it to progressive, correct?
I'm definitely getting this...well, at least if it is sold next year (too many gaming expenses right now with next gen). My biggest gripe with NES (even VC) is just how jank the colors are. I would totally love to play the games if they looked like that Mario 3.
John Carmack agrees with me. For the record though I always wondered what it really means to introduce scan lines artificially as opposed to real lines made by CRT hardware. I'd imagine that artificial methods use display resources to mimic the look, but I doubt that's accurate.
Edit: Oh wait he's using composite?! No, John. You're wrong this time. You're a genius, but you're wrong. RGB or GTFO.
actually pixel artists counted on composite artifacts as much as they counted on CRT artifacts. it goes back to black and white movies coloring props to affect how they ended up looing in black and white (like Frankenstein actually being blue, not green, to get the right shade of gray)
I would imagine very few old games were actually developed/debugged on RGB displays.
I mean for the most part, most games were developed for NTSC display... aka "Never Twice the Same Color"
Yeah, there's no change in resolution mode when going to component. So it should continue to work in that setting.
You say this is an HD CRT? Buddy you use a CRT, you get scan lines. That's sorta what a CRT does. So congrats. You got yourself pretty sweet set for retro gaming there.
Thanks to this thread I have a new obsession. Thanks guys!
But I'm afraid I've taken a step in the wrong direction. See what I've done is mod my SNES to output to component cables. Instead I should have concentrated my efforts into getting a RGB cable and an upscaler. Because although it looks much better on my Samsung HDTV than it did in composite, it is doing it in 480i, and anytime anything flashes I get that combing effect.
Anyway, I will keep checking this thread to see if there is a component upscaler device that will give me nice scanlines from my now 240p component SNES, although I'm sure it won't be cheap.
But I'm afraid I've taken a step in the wrong direction. See what I've done is mod my SNES to output to component cables. Instead I should have concentrated my efforts into getting a RGB cable and an upscaler. Because although it looks much better on my Samsung HDTV than it did in composite, it is doing it in 480i, and anytime anything flashes I get that combing effect.
Anyway, I will keep checking this thread to see if there is a component upscaler device that will give me nice scanlines from my now 240p component SNES, although I'm sure it won't be cheap.
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