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[davidwhangchoi]

Viera, Kuro, and the new OLEDs... You can't even tell where the bezzel is anymore in dark scenes. It's a trip seeing your TV turn into a pitch black rectangular void in space.

i'm with you there, my 60" kuro fd 151 is pitch black

Get the regular, non-expensive cable from her. The pricier one has better isolation in case your setup is prone to A/V interference, but not worth it for most people.

thanks Mega, you got a lot of knowledge

You can use the same cable you have now on your SNES Mini once it's modded. (assuming you bought that first one linked)

You also don't need the big huge insulated cable, unless you're having audio buzz issues, or other interference issues.

thanks! i've been waiting for a restock and just e-mailed the seller.
i didn't want to get the cable until i secured a 1chip or mini.

So are there 480p via component compatible monitors that also do 240p component acceptably in the ~14in range?

Honestly at this point I just want a crt for my ps2 and occasionally wii.

that's a good question, i'm curious as well.

 

[Beer Monkey]

So are there 480p via component compatible monitors that also do 240p component acceptably in the ~14in range?

Honestly at this point I just want a crt for my ps2 and occasionally wii.

Sony PVM-14L5, would, I think, fit the bill. Not going to be easy or cheap to find, most likely.

Some ancient NEC Multisync monitors would probably do the job. They had several that would sync from 15khz to 31.5khz and beyond. This allowed them to work with 480i computers like the Amiga and Atari ST as well as VGA computers. The NEC Multisync 3D was one of these monitors. You would need a component->RGBHV transcoder.

 

[missile]

The bigger the CRT, the less possible it is to get really, really good geometry. Consumer sets have fewer settings to try to compensate, absolutely. The big pro CRT monitors are more tweakable, but even after setup aren't going to have as tight of geometry as smaller monitors. The bigger the tube, the more sensitivity to magnetic fields, and that's unavoidable. ...

Indeed.

I have one already - a Sony Trinitron KV-21FX30B - which I plan to upgrade exactly because of geometry issues I don't seem to be able to entirely avoid, at least on the consumer CRT TVs I have easy access to. I've used three of them during the past 12 months, and each one had similar (yet differently located over the screen) geometry problems. Bowing, warping around the corners, asymmetric tilting... Imperfections that couldn't be rectified by tweaking the service menu settings either. ...

Yeah, I'm still torn, but - all things considered - I'd say geometry has grown up as my main priority, here. ...

And is so for the general public. Astigmatism isn't a huge problem for many.

Magnetic deflection, astigmatism, and flat screens don't go together. ...

 

[NormalFish]

Sony PVM-14L5, would, I think, fit the bill. Not going to be easy or cheap to find, most likely.

Some ancient NEC Multisync monitors would probably do the job. They had several that would sync from 15khz to 31.5khz and beyond. This allowed them to work with 480i computers like the Amiga and Atari ST as well as VGA computers. The NEC Multisync 3D was one of these monitors. You would need a component->RGBHV transcoder.

Yeah, I'm thinking consumer sets. if I got a production level set I wouldn't be worried about component.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Yeah, I'm thinking consumer sets. if I got a production level set I wouldn't be worried about component.

If there's a consumer level set out there in the 25" or under range that can natively scan 480i/240p and 480p, I'm not aware of it. If there is one, it's probably very uncommon.

 

[NormalFish]

Bummer. It's amazing how difficult it is to get an optimal ps2 setup. Ossc should help, though.

 

[Galdelico]

And is so for the general public. Astigmatism isn't a huge problem for many.

Magnetic deflection, astigmatism, and flat screens don't go together. ...

Yeah, I came to understand that the hard way
Hopefully, the next step will be in the right direction.

Also, I realized why my question about the 14" JVC was stupid. The other 17" I'm tracking down has the very same S-Video connections, so it's absolutely pointless to grab another monitor just for that purpose. Sometimes I feel so dumb. :/

 

[Peltz]

Bummer. It's amazing how difficult it is to get an optimal ps2 setup. Ossc should help, though.

Trust me, a lot of us are in the same boat. The all in one set for every retro resolution is very difficult to find.

Also, I realized why my question about the 14" JVC was stupid. The other 17" I'm tracking down has the very same S-Video connections, so it's absolutely pointless to grab another monitor just for that purpose. Sometimes I feel so dumb. :/

Not stupid at all, but yes that's what I meant on the previous page. Most TV's that take SCART or Component also take Composite and S-Video. No use having different ones for different inputs this day and age if it can be avoided.

 

[NormalFish]

Trust me, a lot of us are in the same boat. The all in one set for every retro resolution is very difficult to find.

Thing is, I don't even care about "every retro resolution". Just 3. Of the 50 or so that are used across consoles, early PCs, Arcades, Handhelds, etc.

And they're standards. Standard 480i, standard 480p. Via the most common means of viewing high quality video in the US on a tv (component). And it doesn't seem to exist outside of some warehouse 10 000 miles away, being sold for 200$ in mediocre condition with 100 000 hours.

Real talk, at this point I'm looking at the OSSC as my saving grace, since I really don't want to buy an extron box to accompany my framemeister.

 

[Mega]

So are there 480p via component compatible monitors that also do 240p component acceptably in the ~14in range?

Honestly at this point I just want a crt for my ps2 and occasionally wii.

In addition to PVM-14L5 there is also the Sony BVM-D14H1 and D14H5. There are several of each of these on ebay now, but of course they're on the expensive side.

There is also the Ikegami HTM-1505RA1, the JVC DT-V1700CG and DT-V1710CG if you want something a little bigger.

 

[Beer Monkey]

One thing worth remembering is some sets that do digital processing do NOT accept 240p over component despite accepting 480i over component. If you can even find a consumer television that accepts 480p and 480i over component, it may be "too modern" as far as consumer sets go and reject 240p. That's why Nintendo dropped 240p from Virtual Console on Wii.

 

[Peltz]

That's why Nintendo dropped 240p from Virtual Console on Wii.

Bone-headed move by them. It was likely no extra work for them to allow for 240p for those that wanted it.

 

[Mega]

The Revo K101+ has Composite out. I hooked it up to my 14" PVM and it's not bad at all!

Left: K101, Right: PVM

 

[televator]

I've been doing some further personal study on what looks best on my plasma and I think I'm going to stick with 4:3 on most 480p games. The horizontal scaling on most games is god awful and leads to tremendous aliasing. The strange thing is how some games like Skyward Sword and Mario Galaxy cope well with 16:9... I'd like to get to the bottom of why exactly that is...

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I've been doing some further personal study on what looks best on my plasma and I think I'm going to stick with 4:3 on most 480p games. The horizontal scaling on most games is god awful and leads to tremendous aliasing. The strange thing is how some games like Skyward Sword and Mario Galaxy cope well with 16:9... I'd like to get to the bottom of why exactly that is...

Which games look bad? Is it console specific?

At 480p some stuff outputs at different horizontal resolutions depending on which revision of Rec.601 they're using or depending on how much they're trying to cheat to save ram or the cycle of the moon or something. Officially it's supposed to be 640 (most Wii games do this) or 704 or 800 or 854 pixels wide but there may be others. Skyward Sword and Mario Galaxy might run at one of the higher horizontal resolutions. I don't think systems like Wii can even do internal scaling of a full framebuffer, RAM there is super tight, so must games probably ran at 640 wide to save space.

There's also the issue of the weird pixel aspect ratios at 480p even when everything is behaving properly. Just want to remind everyone that 480p standard is kind of a mess...

Are you running all your Wii stuff on Wii U still? I know people love to rave about HDMI Wii but I can't help but feel like analog should give better results (at least horizontally) when you get into pixel aspect ratio nonsense... a good scaling algorithm could just take 1920 horizontal samples for each 480p line signal, and then do some crap to scan convert.

Edit: I'll add that I run most 480 stuff at 4:3 on PS2 / GC even when there are widescreen options/hack since even if it doesn't look like a blurry mess usually UI elements (maps...) are stretched to look uuuuugly. Wii's 16:9 is fuzzy but at lot of games will letterbox at 4:3 so it's easier to just keep it on 16:9.

 

[Timu]

I think I'm going to stick with 4:3 on most 480p games.

I prefer this when I play 480p games as well.

 

[televator]

Which games look bad? Is it console specific?

At 480p some stuff outputs at different horizontal resolutions depending on which revision of Rec.601 they're using or depending on how much they're trying to cheat to save ram or the cycle of the moon or something. Officially it's supposed to be 640 (most Wii games do this) or 704 or 800 or 854 pixels wide but there may be others. Skyward Sword and Mario Galaxy might run at one of the higher horizontal resolutions. I don't think systems like Wii can even do internal scaling of a full framebuffer, RAM there is super tight, so must games probably ran at 640 wide to save space.

There's also the issue of the weird pixel aspect ratios at 480p even when everything is behaving properly. Just want to remind everyone that 480p standard is kind of a mess...

Are you running all your Wii stuff on Wii U still? I know people love to rave about HDMI Wii but I can't help but feel like analog should give better results (at least horizontally) when you get into pixel aspect ratio nonsense... a good scaling algorithm could just take 1920 horizontal samples for each 480p line signal, and then do some crap to scan convert.

Edit: I'll add that I run most 480 stuff at 4:3 on PS2 / GC even when there are widescreen options/hack since even if it doesn't look like a blurry mess usually UI elements (maps...) are stretched to look uuuuugly. Wii's 16:9 is fuzzy but at lot of games will letterbox at 4:3 so it's easier to just keep it on 16:9.

I'm noticing it more on hacked widescreen. I was guessing it had something to do with it being "off the books" that hacked WS does some nonstandard low horizontal resolutions that end up looking assy on a wide display. I guess you sorta bolstered that idea. I do run my Wii games on WiiU and the picture quality in 16:9 Mario Galaxy 2 is stunning. Looks like a 720p Xbox/PS3 game. There are some exceptions in the hacked WS camp too. GC Twilight Princess on GC and WiiU always looked great in wide screen... better than Wii TP on a Wii.

Edit: disregard most of what I said. It turns out that I had my WiiU set to 1080p on account of me playing Twilight princess HD. I set my WiiU back to 480p and have the Panny ST60 handle all the scaling again... Fuck this TV is a beast!!!!! I'm back to flawless scaling even in 16:9. Yeah, I forgot that I had the WiiU set to 1080p and so it was doing the scaling... And sucking ass at it. lol

Now I wonder if I can force games into PAL60...

 

[D.Lo]

Yeah I run hacked widescreen of GC games, and it's 640 stretched. You don't get the extra resolution of some widescreen Wii games.

Wii U looks great for GCN/Wii, it's my go-to box now. If only some Wiiware games didn't look so crap in widescreen though (eg Castlevania), and you can't easily force them back into 4:3 (and let the TV stretch it).

 

[televator]

Yeah I run hacked widescreen of GC games, and it's 640 stretched. You don't get the extra resolution of some widescreen Wii games.

Wii U looks great for GCN/Wii, it's my go-to box now. If only some Wiiware games didn't look so crap in widescreen though (eg Castlevania), and you can't easily force them back into 4:3 (and let the TV stretch it).

Do some games run up to 720 horizontally on Wii?

 

[Timu]

Wii U looks great for GCN/Wii, it's my go-to box now. I

Same for me as well.

 

[televator]

Same for me as well.

Triple that. I just have to remember to keep the resolution @ 480p. WiiU butchers H resolution scaling for 16:9

 

[Timu]

Triple that. I just have to remember to keep the resolution @ 480p. WiiU butchers H resolution scaling for 16:9

It does? I didn't know that.

 

[BocoDragon]

Triple that. I just have to remember to keep the resolution @ 480p. WiiU butchers H resolution scaling for 16:9

Even for original Wii widescreen games?

Or is this just for GCN stuff?

 

[televator]

Even for original Wii widescreen games?

Or is this just for GCN stuff?

It's mostly the widescreen hacks that are the problem. Wii stuff that uses a larger frame should be okay. In general, I just don't like the quality of WiiU 1080p up scaling compared to Panasonic's upscaling. Though just to remind everyone, Panasonic has some god tier upscaling processes.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's mostly the widescreen hacks that are the problem.

Ah I see. I skip those. I prefer original ratios, though I know those hacks are pretty close to perfect.

In general, I just don't like the quality of WiiU 1080p up scaling compared to Panasonic's upscaling. Though just to remind everyone, Panasonic has some god tier upscaling processes.

I have a Panasonic plasma. 480p stuff does look great (I have my OG Xbox connected directly through component, skipping the XRGB mini because it's better).

But Wii U's scaler definitely looks better than Wii through component. I'll try 480p on Wii U for fun some time. Maybe it's because component on Wii looks too soft to me.

 

[televator]

Ah I see. I skip those. I prefer original ratios, though I know those hacks are pretty close to perfect.



I have a Panasonic plasma. 480p stuff does look great (I have my OG Xbox connected directly through component, skipping the XRGB mini because it's better).

But Wii U's scaler definitely looks better than Wii through component. I'll try 480p on Wii U for fun some time. Maybe it's because component on Wii looks too soft to me.

Trust me, 480p from WiiU to your Panny is no contest. WiiU scaling looks busted in comparison. Try it for fun, but you'll see the light and keep it that way.

Also, on a side note: Does anyone happen to know what the standard color depth for game systems is nowadays? The GameCube had 16bit color and that manifested in lots of false contouring/posturization/color banding. I assume OG Xbox and/or DC lead the standard to 8bpc? I also assume HDMI systems stepped up to 10bpc...? I'm curious, because my TV seems to be able to accept 30 bit RGB just fine and I wonder what consoles could push that.

 

[D.Lo]

The GameCube had 16bit color and that manifested in lots of false contouring/posturization/color banding.

Game by game basis, the hardware could do 24 bit colour fine. Metroid Primes run in 24bit for example.

MGS:TTS, RE4, Zelda WW, Mario Sunshine run in 16 bit though.

It looks fine on a CRT (eg Wind Waker looks even more anime-like with the banding), but it looks worse on fixed pixel displays. These games just were not made for LCDs, and the developers made trade-offs that weren't noticeable on the intended display device.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

hey guys, i saw this quick video last night on CRT's

Preparing Aged CRT's

you guys think taking it apart and add magnets like shown will help people with issues of geometry?

Spoiler

(was pressured into wearing this mask for Zero Escape 3 in good fun lol)

 

[Peltz]

Parents are visiting this weekend. I'm going to ask them to bring my OG Red Wii from their basement to compare it's handing of Wii games to the Wii U using the same component cables.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Parents are visiting this weekend. I'm going to ask them to bring my OG Red Wii from their basement to compare it's handing of Wii games to the Wii U using the same component cables.

Hack them both and install the 240p Test Suite. The test patterns and lag tests are essential.

 

[Mega]

hey guys, i saw this quick video last night on CRT's

Preparing Aged CRT's

you guys think taking it apart and add magnets like shown will help people with issues of geometry?

Spoiler

(was pressured into wearing this mask for Zero Escape 3 in good fun lol)

It's been posted a few times. What you mentioned should be doable. I have seen at least one other of someone applying magnetic strips to a tube in order to fix bad geometry that could not be fixed with the standard controls and pots. I used round magnets on the monitor frame to temp fix permanent purity damage.

Wait... the BVM now has bad geometry that needs magnets to fix?!

 

[Peltz]

Hack them both and install the 240p Test Suite. The test patterns and lag tests are essential.

I generally prefer to keep my Nintendo hardware mostly pure and mod free. I'm a bit of a stickler for this sort of thing.
(It isn't rational, I know, but trust me.., it's just a personal preference that will not change). I even keep an unmodded N64 at my place despite having another one modded for RGB out. I never even use the spare/unmodded console but it's something I need to have.


Now that you mention it though, I would love to have the test suite on my dreamcast. If only I had a CD burner :-(

Do the makers of the 240p test suite have discs for sale?

So far, I have been 100% cool with calibrating my PVM with just the naked eye. It looks fantastic even with some slight geometry problems. But some more scientific tweaking couldn't hurt I suppose.

 

[eXistor]

I screwed around in the service menu of my Sony Trinitron and the picture is definitely better now. I recently found the image to be way too dark and there was fairly little I could really do about it, but upping the gamma +1 and some other setting really helped, also I corrected some colors (there was a slight blue hue over everything). Also fixed the geometry, but it really differs per console, so this is something I'm gonna have to fix every time I use a different console.

Still I'm happy with the results.

 

[RadarScope1]

I screwed around in the service menu of my Sony Trinitron and the picture is definitely better now. I recently found the image to be way too dark and there was fairly little I could really do about it, but upping the gamma +1 and some other setting really helped, also I corrected some colors (there was a slight blue hue over everything). Also fixed the geometry, but it really differs per console, so this is something I'm gonna have to fix every time I use a different console.

Still I'm happy with the results.

I've noticed I have to mess with colors when switching consoles, too, now that I'm using a BVM. I didn't seem to have to do that when I used a consumer Trinitron.

 

[eXistor]

I've noticed I have to mess with colors when switching consoles, too, now that I'm using a BVM. I didn't seem to have to do that when I used a consumer Trinitron.

I've only messed around with NES, SNES and Mega Drive so far, but the colors seem to be alright across the board. I'll fire up the 'ol PC engine and a few others to see if I notice anything off. I was always afraid the service menu was gonna be a labyrinth of random settings, but it's quite easy figure out I think.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

It's been posted a few times. What you mentioned should be doable. I have seen at least one other of someone applying magnetic strips to a tube in order to fix bad geometry that could not be fixed with the standard controls and pots. I used round magnets on the monitor frame to temp fix permanent purity damage.

Wait... the BVM now has bad geometry that needs magnets to fix?!

no, just that slight upper right hand corner bends in vertically more than the left side that i mentioned earlier. removing the terminator on the sync out improves the geometry a bit and using the slight rotation needed to get rid of the discoloration. i was thinking maybe magnets might help with a slight tweak. just trying to tinker but the geometry is pretty straight so far just using eye judgement and a grid pattern from booting up snes gradius III and THX test patterns off a star wars limited edition dvd. i'll need to get a way to run the full test patterns you linked before concluding i need to use magnets.

btw, i moved the CRT around to another room and the location did have an effect on the CRT as i had to redo the alignment settings. but i still see the slight discoloration in the upper right hand corner if use the rotation settings a certain way. but i have it dialed out completely at the moment.

question: when you use TATE mode, which side do you lay the CRT on, right or left? galaga has a TATE setting and pretty excited to try that in the future.

 

[geniusbits]

Hmmm, that's weird. There appear to be RGB inputs on the back:



Is this not RBG via BNC?

I stand corrected. I have seen that model without RGB though, there is one in a lab I worked in.

 

[televator]

Game by game basis, the hardware could do 24 bit colour fine. Metroid Primes run in 24bit for example.

MGS:TTS, RE4, Zelda WW, Mario Sunshine run in 16 bit though.

It looks fine on a CRT (eg Wind Waker looks even more anime-like with the banding), but it looks worse on fixed pixel displays. These games just were not made for LCDs, and the developers made trade-offs that weren't noticeable on the intended display device.

It did 24bit via dithering? Its internal RGB format is RGB565... Or could it do different RGB bit formats?

 

[Beer Monkey]

Got really lucky. Won a DT-V1710CG (all NTSC resolutions and color space, all PAL resolutions and color space, plus 480p/720p/1080i/1080p24) on eBay recently, and it arrived DOA. Kaput. No picture, no OSD, no menu. It wasn't cheap, either ($300 shipped, though it did include composite/svid, RGB/component, and SDI input cards).

The seller had guaranteed no DOA. Turned out he had a backup DT-V1710CG that had basically not even been used - it was a true backup kept on hand in case of failure of the production unit (and was manufactured in 2005, four years after the other one). So he sent me the backup and told me to keep the dead one. Arrived today, works perfectly. Jesus, the scanlines are pretty much TOO sharp at 240p, the amount of black space is HUGE. The service menu reports 000 hours of use, because it reports use in hundreds of hours, and it has been turned on less than 100 hours.

Now I wonder if I can have the dead one fixed at a decent price...

 

[Peltz]

Got really lucky. Won a DT-V1710CG (all NTSC resolutions and color space, all PAL resolutions and color space, plus 480p/720p/1080i/1080p24) on eBay recently, and it arrived DOA. Kaput. No picture, no OSD, no menu. It wasn't cheap, either ($300 shipped, though it did include composite/svid, RGB/component, and SDI input cards).

The seller had guaranteed no DOA. Turned out he had a backup DT-V1710CG that had basically not even been used - it was a true backup kept on hand in case of failure of the production unit (and was manufactured in 2005, four years after the other one). So he sent me the backup and told me to keep the dead one. Arrived today, works perfectly. Jesus, the scanlines are pretty much TOO sharp at 240p, the amount of black space is HUGE. The service menu reports 000 hours of use, because it reports use in hundreds of hours, and it has been turned on less than 100 hours.

Now I wonder if I can have the dead one fixed at a decent price...

Damn son. Got any pics of your new tube? Sounds cool.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Damn son. Got any pics of your new tube? Sounds cool.

I'll get a couple of quick ones up tonight, more in weeks to come.

 

[Mega]

Got really lucky. Won a DT-V1710CG (all NTSC resolutions and color space, all PAL resolutions and color space, plus 480p/720p/1080i/1080p24) on eBay recently, and it arrived DOA. Kaput. No picture, no OSD, no menu. It wasn't cheap, either ($300 shipped, though it did include composite/svid, RGB/component, and SDI input cards).

The seller had guaranteed no DOA. Turned out he had a backup DT-V1710CG that had basically not even been used - it was a true backup kept on hand in case of failure of the production unit (and was manufactured in 2005, four years after the other one). So he sent me the backup and told me to keep the dead one. Arrived today, works perfectly. Jesus, the scanlines are pretty much TOO sharp at 240p, the amount of black space is HUGE. The service menu reports 000 hours of use, because it reports use in hundreds of hours, and it has been turned on less than 100 hours.

Now I wonder if I can have the dead one fixed at a decent price...

I have two of these... mid-2000s, 7700 hours each (basically like new condition), four RGB/Component cards between the two, $80 and $125. BVM-like picture quality (notch lower in convergence and edge sharpness), very small and light for its screen size. Great monitor.

Kind of want the Composite/S-video card... but just to have, not for anything in particular since I'm covered there with the 14" PVM.

 

[Beer Monkey]

BVM-like picture quality (notch lower in convergence and edge sharpness), very small and light for its screen size. Great monitor.

I'm actually probably going to de-focus mine at some point. Too sharp! I was actually playing a Neo Geo MVS cab the other night and while every scanline was completely distinct, it would be considered insanely blurry compared to the PVM. I'll post a couple of pics tonight.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

sharp is good =)

i hunted a snes mini for that reason

 

[Beer Monkey]

A couple of very quick DT-V1710CG snaps.

PS1 game via PSP Go component 240p:

Atari paddle emulator gadget via composite 240p:

Everything else I have that outputs 240p is either boxed up right now or awaiting RGB cables.

 

[dragonyeuw]

Can anyone vouch for the Sony kdf-e55a20 as a retro set? There's one in my local classified selling for $200. Thinking about putting in my garage and hooking up my old systems( ps2,dreamcast,saturn, snes, genesis). I don't know if that's a good deal, but I'm mainly concerned with the reliability( of course, it's a 10 year old TV) and bulb replacement( which I have no experience with).

 

[Morfeo]

shipito is my best friend for that.

Just wanted to say I used this method to get the switcher you recommended, still not arrived here, but very happy for both of your tips, the retro gaf-community truly is great!

 

[davidwhangchoi]

Can anyone vouch for the Sony kdf-e55a20 as a retro set? There's one in my local classified selling for $200. Thinking about putting in my garage and hooking up my old systems( ps2,dreamcast,saturn, snes, genesis). I don't know if that's a good deal, but I'm mainly concerned with the reliability( of course, it's a 10 year old TV) and bulb replacement( which I have no experience with).

i owned a sony xbr rear projection.


the bulbs are expensive and when they dim the black levels rise and turn grey. i don't think it's worth it imo,

 

[dragonyeuw]

i owned a sony xbr rear projection.


the bulbs are expensive and when they dim the black levels rise and turn grey. i don't think it's worth it imo,

cool, thanks for the tip!

 

[pje122]

Hmmm... this might be a stupid question but bear with me.

I currently have a Gen 1 Sega Genesis that I have hooked up to my PVM with RGB cables. If I get a Model 1 Sega CD, do I need new RGB cables to connect the Sega CD unit to the monitor or does everything still run from the Genesis to the PVM?

I hope that makes sense...