Shin Johnpv
Member
Everything runs through the Genesis.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
Video output is through the Genesis in a CD setup.
MikeHattsu
Member
Well, if you want stereo sound you need to run the sound through the SegaCD.
My PVM can only do mono so I don't think this fact changes my current setup, right?
Grab you some cheap speakers dude! Those PVM speakers are atrocious.
MikeHattsu
Member
I just realised that all computers that were not IBM PC, like Amiga, Atari ST, Apple II, all the 8bit computers, output a signal compatible with RGB TV. So I was wondering. Old DOS games have a resolution of 320*200, which looks a lot like a resolution that would be achieved by a CRT scanning at 15kHz and just a bit over 60Hz (or 60Hz with black bars). Has anyone tried to display it on a production monitor or a consumer TV?
I don't mean by using soft15khz or a modern computer, but an old IBM PC with DOS and whatever is output by the game. I suppose I would need an adapter to combine Hsync and Vsync, and maybe some software to slow down the output to 240p instead of 200p?
I don't mean by using soft15khz or a modern computer, but an old IBM PC with DOS and whatever is output by the game. I suppose I would need an adapter to combine Hsync and Vsync, and maybe some software to slow down the output to 240p instead of 200p?
RadarScope1
Member
Yep. I'm running some cheap old PC speakers via the stereo out from my model 1. Sounds great. I'm hoping to get a 2.1 setup soon so I can get some bass kick.
OK, so maybe help me with this. I'm on the Sega CD Racketboy page (http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega/segacd/sega-cd-101-a-beginners-guide). It says here:
So therefore how would I connect a cable from the headphone jack on the Genesis to the mixing input on the back of the Sega CD when that spot on the front of the Genesis is already being used?
But the headphone jack on the Genesis is already used by the Genesis RGB cable that has an audio plug connected to it (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Genesi...SCART-with-boosted-sync-TV-lead-/161575853221).
So therefore how would I connect a cable from the headphone jack on the Genesis to the mixing input on the back of the Sega CD when that spot on the front of the Genesis is already being used?
MikeHattsu
Member
You take out the audio plug of the Genesis RGB cable and put in the mixing cable. You're not gonna run the sound to the PVM if you want stereo sound.
NormalFish
Banned
Speaking of sound for old consoles, do you guys use mixers or just move around cables? With the OSSC not having audio, I'm not sure how to change my audio set up.
Well, I mean if I still want to the audio to go to the PVM with the Sega CD just as it does today with just the Gen 1 Genesis.
RadarScope1
Member
I use an A/V switch but for the audio only. I have four inputs on my BVM and there are four consoles hooked up to the monitor and I select the proper audio channel when I switch devices. It's not an amp or mixing board, though, if that's what you're asking.
NormalFish
Banned
Hm this hadn't occured to me. I think I might take this chance to integrate my pc audio set up and my console audio set up, which complicates that somewhat, but still an interesting idea.
RadarScope1
Member
It works really well for right now. I have four consoles, there are four inputs on my BVM and there are four inputs on the A/V switch. The A/V switch has headphone out jack, and the computer speakers take a 3.5 mm audio line. The only other little trick I added was using a Y-adaptor on the NES audio out to double the mono sound into both speakers. The AV Famicom already does this via the propriety Nintendo cable, which was a nice surprise. And of course those kinds of switches are dirt cheap and don't degrade audio signals.
geniusbits
Member
There are 480p native plasma TVs. I don't think comparing a display that is showing native content to one upscaling is a fair comparison for the tech. To be fair you would compare a 720p native CRT (the ones that do 720p/1080i, I think the XBRs use that as their native resolution) to a 720p HDTV, or get a 480p plasma or LCD (if they exist) and compare to a CRT EDTV. Anything upscaled is going to have more jaggies, just like a screen twice the size of another one will have less detail if they are using the same resolution, it's just simple geometry.
I already explained how more jaggies are not a guaranteed result in an HDTV upscaling 480p. Simple bilinear upscaling is not the only way to process a non native image.
sir_kevith
Member
If I was single I'd get this but I already have too much heavy ass gaming shit. If anyone's in the PNW and looking for a 35" RGB monitor:
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=265&acctid=6092
Mitsubishi AM-3501R
I can see the RGB connection on the back.
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=265&acctid=6092
Mitsubishi AM-3501R
I can see the RGB connection on the back.
geniusbits
Member
Yes but in addition to that difference in technology I'm just saying that comparing an upscaled display vs. a native display is not a fair comparison of displays technologies. For example the type of scaling used, it wouldn't be fair to compare two different types if one was a 1080p native display and the other 720p, since there will be a difference simply by the degree of scaling necessary, regardless of which type of scaling is better.
35"?? That's going to leave every USPS-employee that touches it, on long term disability...
Extron matrix switch which I've mentioned before. 12 audio and video inputs, 4 audio and video outputs. It's a mess of cables in the back but its versatility is unrivaled.
You have to pick it up or hire a company that specialized in pickup and shipping ($$$).
GovDeals and its sister sites are shady anyway. Wouldn't bother with them.
I agree that it's not a fair comparison of technology (CRT Vs Fixed pixel) because native resolutions are fluid. However, when talking specifically about scaling Vs. native res, it's important to distinguish good scaling from fast/cheap scaling methods. Good scaling can be very near or as good as native res display - processing latency considered.
If people are curious... Look up the Megaview sets. I think they go 40" and higher. lol
MikeHattsu
Member
Then you don't have to do anything. The extra cabling is only if you want stereo sound.
RadarScope1
Member
Damn, yo.
Beer Monkey
Member
240p versus 480p component on JVC DT-V1710CG.
Color differences from camera, not display. Need to work on using fully manual settings.
Color differences from camera, not display. Need to work on using fully manual settings.
NormalFish
Banned
I'm jealous.
Except the audio is impossible to set up unless you spend a bunch on "Phoenix Connectors". I have an extron but still have not been able to find a decent place that sells them, so it is strictly video only for now.
Hmmm.... OK, thank you.
Beer Monkey
Member
Ohe more gratuitous snap off the JVC because Darkstalkers.
Depth of field softening the left because angled shot.
Depth of field softening the left because angled shot.
Post screenshots man.
You can make your own. I have no hands-on experience and still made a few. They did the job before I found a seller that had Extron CSR6 adapters, exactly 16 for all the audio inputs and outputs. They're rare but keep looking and they pop up.
Needs to be said every time because it's a huge red flag... BVM-A was the last of Sony's pro CRTs at the start of the HD transition and were primarily used with SDI cards for HD work. Because hardly anyone needed it, none came with the RGB/Component card that works with that line of monitors. You will find yourself waiting months for one to pop up at auction and pay around $400 at final bid... maybe more with the increased attention and demand to obtain good RGB monitors for gaming in the past year or so. Look for the previous line, BVM-D. It's just as good and uses common input cards (and came standard with its RGB/Component card so it should be there).
Jimnymebob
Member
I got a Hama AV Selector yesterday, and I've used it to connect my PS2 to my CRT with an RGB cable. When I hit the RGB switch the picture shifts towards the left a few centimetres. This isn't a huge problem, as a lot of games have the option to adjust the screen, but it's annoying for ones that don't.
Is there anything you can do about this, or is it just a quirk of displaying RGB on a PAL TV?
My TV is a Daewoo (I'm not sure what the model number is; it's a silver VCR combi and is around 15 years old), and there are no settings to shift the picture in the menus, and the PS2 doesn't have the universal screen adjust that the Gamecube had.
Is there anything you can do about this, or is it just a quirk of displaying RGB on a PAL TV?
My TV is a Daewoo (I'm not sure what the model number is; it's a silver VCR combi and is around 15 years old), and there are no settings to shift the picture in the menus, and the PS2 doesn't have the universal screen adjust that the Gamecube had.
sixteen-bit
Member
Ohe more gratuitous snap off the JVC because Darkstalkers.
Depth of field softening the left because angled shot.
Nice shot. Share the love
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921436
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Ended up getting a Sony PVM-1354Q monitor yesterday. Wondering what are some good cheap speakers to use to route audio to. Any suggestions?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Sort of inside the SNES hardware itself. The signal that comes out of the SNES is analog, so it's a set of lines one after the other with signals to note where lines begin and end (hsync signal) and where frames begin and end (vsync signal). Each line is just one of the lines the SNES rendered, and the timing/length of the line signal is just timed to the standard timing so that's kind of when the "scaling" occurs.
The CRT electron gun's output at each hsync is moved back to the left of the screen (and down a line) like a typewriter, and draws the full line with the pixels stretched out since that's just what's on the signal.
If you really want to dig into this stuff just read some stuff on how analog video signals works, especially 480i since 240p is barely different.
It's been a while since I played SNES on an HDTV. Absent any sort of emulation or external scaler, does an HDTV squish it back to 8:7?
P.s. Any reading material that you guys could recommend would be great! I love reading this stuff.
PPS - on a separate note - we should all come up with a master spreadsheet of CRTs that we are familiar with that we could add information to as a group.
It would be amazing to have all of our collected impressions on one master document that newcomers can look to when shopping for CRTs on Craigslist or eBay. It doesn't need to be complex. Just a columns for manufacturing company, model number, inputs, and comments.
I don't know how to set that up (maybe on Googke docs?) but I'd love to contribute and read other people's contributions.
P.s. Any reading material that you guys could recommend would be great! I love reading this stuff.
PPS - on a separate note - we should all come up with a master spreadsheet of CRTs that we are familiar with that we could add information to as a group.
It would be amazing to have all of our collected impressions on one master document that newcomers can look to when shopping for CRTs on Craigslist or eBay. It doesn't need to be complex. Just a columns for manufacturing company, model number, inputs, and comments.
I don't know how to set that up (maybe on Googke docs?) but I'd love to contribute and read other people's contributions.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
No the signal still fills the full width of the 4:3 frame. It's actually really annoying to get it back to 8:7 if you want it to look correct (don't kill me) -- I spent a while fiddling with framemeister zoom settings to find one that worked.
This video is a pretty good basic overview. I found some longer documents that go into a lot of detail about how all this controls CRTs at one point when I was thinking to try and make my own scan converter... I don't remember what the url is or how I found it but there's some good info out there if you go googling.
There is no scaling, it's all about the clock.
A consumer CRT has fixed timings. The electron beam scans from top to bottom in 16.6ms (60Hz), and from left to right in 66.7µs (15kHz). Because of that, you have a fixed amount of lines to display before the beam goes back up. It's why the vertical resolution never varies between sources. When it's lower, it's just blanked lines of uniform colour. However when the beam scans left to right, you can put a much data as you want to display, as long as you can output it fast enough. For example, the SNES outputs each pixel for 260ns (3.84MHz), resulting in 256 spots of colour on your line. If you want to display more pixel per line, you simply have to output them faster: for 320 dots per line, each pixel would stay in the wire for 208ns. The frequency at which each pixel is computed and output defines how wide it will be on your screen.
The SNES is designed to output pixels that high, that fat. The 8/7 aspect ratio isn't the aspect ratio of the picture, it's the aspect ratio of the pixel. It's only because emulators are crap and display fat pixels as square pixels that you see a distorted picture.
Beer Monkey
Member
The horizontal resolution of analog NTSC isn't even defined. You want to see funky "pixels", look at an Atari 2600, which typically resolves 160 super wide ones on each line. Some pro displays could depict over 800 tall narrow "pixels" on a line if a device actually generated them.
Arcade games often use some odd resolutions (non square pixels). All Capcom CPS-1, CPS-2 and CPS-3 render 384x224 pixels. If left square, when using an emulator for example, the games look vertically squished.
There are certainly more extreme examples, as mentioned above, but the CPS systems were popular and you can find screenshots from emulator output everywhere. Many people probably believe they are supposed to have that widescreen look, while they all really should be 4:3 (or 3:4).
There are certainly more extreme examples, as mentioned above, but the CPS systems were popular and you can find screenshots from emulator output everywhere. Many people probably believe they are supposed to have that widescreen look, while they all really should be 4:3 (or 3:4).
I bought one of the 3-input versions from the same seller, about a week ago. Haven't received it yet, though.
- Status