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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Thanks for the sound advice, Mega!
I'm still far from deciding to chase any particular monitor, but it's good to understand more around what to expect.
Shadow Hog
Member
Tempting, but I already spent the money on that auto switcher from Retro RGB, so I guess I'm better off waiting on that.
davidwhangchoi
Member
Mega's definitely really informed and helpful!
Whoa, your new avatar made me do a big double take, David!
What's usually a friendly looking face has suddenly become ZERO. :0
davidwhangchoi
Member
i was pressured into it =P hahaha
jk 
the guy volunteered to make avatars for anyone who request one. one of the members asked why i'm not wearing one, so i requested a mask.... i tried taking it off but he caught me. lol all good fun
the guy volunteered to make avatars for anyone who request one. one of the members asked why i'm not wearing one, so i requested a mask.... i tried taking it off but he caught me. lol all good funThanks, but it's just regular knowledge you can find online. I wish I had a greater in-depth understanding of CRTs but it really serves no purpose to my life anymore than learning astrophysics for the hell of it!
Guys I need your expertise concerning a XRGB mini with a PAL PS1 running 60 hertz jp/us games with a PSIO.
Until now I never tried my PS1 on my XRGB mini. It happens that there are many glitches running 60 hertz games, such has: Top screen shaking, picture teared in half horizontally with the lower part shaking uncontrollably, or the whole picture shifted right or shaking. It mostly happens in the menus and loading screens though.
If I just connect the PS1 to my bravia without running it through the framemeister, the whole screen is shaking. I never had any issues on a CRT.
I discovered after searching google a little that apparently, and contrary to the PS2, the PAL PS1 can't output a native 60 hertz, and as a result NTSC games run 1% slower.
My question is:
Is this the reason the picture is messed up on an HDTV/framemeister, meaning it would be a synchronization issue? If yes, is there any way to fix it?
If no, am I screwed and should just order a US/JP PS1 to resolve this issue?
Thanks in advance.
Until now I never tried my PS1 on my XRGB mini. It happens that there are many glitches running 60 hertz games, such has: Top screen shaking, picture teared in half horizontally with the lower part shaking uncontrollably, or the whole picture shifted right or shaking. It mostly happens in the menus and loading screens though.
If I just connect the PS1 to my bravia without running it through the framemeister, the whole screen is shaking. I never had any issues on a CRT.
I discovered after searching google a little that apparently, and contrary to the PS2, the PAL PS1 can't output a native 60 hertz, and as a result NTSC games run 1% slower.
My question is:
Is this the reason the picture is messed up on an HDTV/framemeister, meaning it would be a synchronization issue? If yes, is there any way to fix it?
If no, am I screwed and should just order a US/JP PS1 to resolve this issue?
Thanks in advance.
NormalFish
Banned
Shaking always sounds like a sync issue to me.
NTSCU PS1s are cheap as hell, so you might as well pick one up. That said, you try messing with the sync settings on the framemeister. Sync level and such.
NTSCU PS1s are cheap as hell, so you might as well pick one up. That said, you try messing with the sync settings on the framemeister. Sync level and such.
I'm not at home this weekend so can't help much, but I use a PAL PS1 to play NTSC games through the Framemeister all the time with no issues. I use a PSOne style system though with a boot disc.
FiveMinuteHero
Member
I have a quick question regarding the Framemeister. I eventually plan to purchase a 1080p PC monitor but currently I have a monitor with 1600 x 900 resolution. Can I use the Framemeister with this at a native resolution? Or it outputs only 720p or 1080p? Thanks!
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Your monitor can display 720p content, I presume. You have a 900 vertical resolution, which means that it could display 720p with 180px worth of letterbox bars on the top and bottom.
To figure this out, if you can play a last gen game console on it now (most PS3 or 360 games are 720p), yes the Framemeister will work just fine.
And actually, most of us prefer to run our Framemeister at 720p, not 1080p. That's because 720p can run scanlines accurately, being a multiple of the original scanlines resolution.
So I believe your monitor will do just fine with a Framemeister.
FiveMinuteHero
Member
Yes, my main concern was if the monitor would just scale the 720p up to fill the panel, in which case it won't look great. As for the scanlines @ 1080p issues I believe it has been fixed with the latest firmware.
Hey guys!
I've found a PVM/BVM reseller close to where I live (I've never been able to find them in the wild) and I'm having huge issues figuring out what monitor to buy. I mostly want to use it for retro gaming with the following consoles:
The available monitors I can choose between are:
I live in PAL territory but all my consoles are imports from the USA or Japan. The are unmodified and I only have the standard AV cables.
I am willing to purchase adapters and cables to get a better picture and even try modding my hardware. I've been looking at RetroRGB and watching some My Life in Gaming videos to get a better idea of what I have to do but I'm mostly wondering about the initial outlook on what would be easiest to get started with. I think S-video will be sufficient for my needs but if I want to go RGB I'd like to know what is relevant regarding the available monitors.
Should I avoid any of the above models for my needs or is there one that stands out as a much better choice? I'm having trouble to find documentation on them but the 20M4E I've figured out handles 60Hz at least so it should be able to handle my NTSC-U/J consoles.
Is there anything else I should take into consideration? I need some guidance.
[EDIT]
I might want to use a PS2, Dreamcast or Gamecube with this monitor as well. Would that impact my choice in any way? 480 something signal, right? I'm trying to research this but I'm not video savvy at all.
I've found a PVM/BVM reseller close to where I live (I've never been able to find them in the wild) and I'm having huge issues figuring out what monitor to buy. I mostly want to use it for retro gaming with the following consoles:
- Super Nintendo
- PlayStation
- Nintendo 64
- Sega Mega Drive
The available monitors I can choose between are:
- SONY BVM-2016P
- SONY PVM-20M4E
- SONY PVM-2054QM
- SONY PVM-9020ME
I live in PAL territory but all my consoles are imports from the USA or Japan. The are unmodified and I only have the standard AV cables.
I am willing to purchase adapters and cables to get a better picture and even try modding my hardware. I've been looking at RetroRGB and watching some My Life in Gaming videos to get a better idea of what I have to do but I'm mostly wondering about the initial outlook on what would be easiest to get started with. I think S-video will be sufficient for my needs but if I want to go RGB I'd like to know what is relevant regarding the available monitors.
Should I avoid any of the above models for my needs or is there one that stands out as a much better choice? I'm having trouble to find documentation on them but the 20M4E I've figured out handles 60Hz at least so it should be able to handle my NTSC-U/J consoles.
Is there anything else I should take into consideration? I need some guidance.
[EDIT]
I might want to use a PS2, Dreamcast or Gamecube with this monitor as well. Would that impact my choice in any way? 480 something signal, right? I'm trying to research this but I'm not video savvy at all.
Did you change the sync settings like NormalFish advised me to have a proper result?
No I didn't, it was fine as is.
I don't know much about PSIO, but could it be the way it handles the video output somehow?
Do you have a chip so you could try a boot disc just to test?
Beer Monkey
Member
Something a little different. Mario Advance 4 (the one with all the e-reader levels) via 480p component. Ah, if only the Wii U did 240p.
Something a little different. Mario Advance 4 (the one with all the e-reader levels) via 480p component. Ah, if only the Wii U did 240p.
Wii?
Beer Monkey
Member
Sure, this could presumably be done with a GBA emulator on a Wii with a hacked ROM. Would it run as smooth/faithful as the Wii U VC version? Not sure. My Wii is in storage, going to get it out soon.
EDIT: best version would probably be hacked ROM on a flash card played on a Gamecube with the Gameboy Interface in ULL mode.
Patch here. It has the voices though.
Sorry, I was confused. So this is on WiiU.
Beer Monkey
Member
Yeah, they official released SMA4 with all 38 e-reader levels recently (for the first time).
drhankmccoyphd
Member
I'm planning a trip to Japan in the next few months, and I was thinking about importing a Framemeister. Would it be worth it to just wait a few months and pick one up at retail when I'm overseas? I'm in the US if that makes a difference for the exchange rate.
NormalFish
Banned
I would think that you could find one cheaper in Japan, however I don't know about the availability of such things, since it's something of a niche product. Solaris raised their prices a bit when the yen crashed, but I don't know if that was reflective of the MSRP or just for solaris.
Kiddy Dong
Member
Sure, this could presumably be done with a GBA emulator on a Wii with a hacked ROM. Would it run as smooth/faithful as the Wii U VC version? Not sure. My Wii is in storage, going to get it out soon.
EDIT: best version would probably be hacked ROM on a flash card played on a Gamecube with the Gameboy Interface in ULL mode.
There's a fork of VBA GX (v2.3.2) which added universal 240p support. Those games look glorious on a CRT with scanlines, despite being designed for an LCD screen.
Any PVM junkies here know what the "358 Trap Filter" and "ACC" ( Advanced Color Correction) actually do in the settings menu? Using YPbPr, I can't perceive a difference in image quality with either turned on.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Having an issue with my PVM - can this be fixed in the TV settings somewhere?
I didn't know PVMs came with a vase mode.
Yeah it's driving me nuts
D.Lo
Member
Are you sure you're not playing Doki Doki panic/Mario 2 and are simply inside a jar?Having an issue with my PVM there's this weird hourglass look to the screen - can this be fixed in the TV settings somewhere?
Serious answer is it's messed up geometry. Find you pin settings, possibly going to require opening the case depending on the set.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Just got back my Twin Fami from Baphomet and pretty pleased with the results!
I can join in the monthly NES game picks now.
Was totally unaware of USPS delivering on Sundays though and woke up to the package having been brough inside by my roommates.
I can join in the monthly NES game picks now.
NormalFish
Banned
damn, that IQ is just a hair softer than emulation. Congrats.
StevieWhite
Member
Fun little retronauts this week for those of you which may not subscribe:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/the-machines-win-on-this-weeks-episode-of-retronauts
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/the-machines-win-on-this-weeks-episode-of-retronauts
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
^ seems like they get the facts more or less right. If you want your RGB / PVM / XRGB mini introduction podcast, there it is.
Though Jeremy just said N64 on VC upscales to 640p. I'll chock some of this up to brain fart.
Though Jeremy just said N64 on VC upscales to 640p. I'll chock some of this up to brain fart.
It's actually 480p, as in 640x480.
StevieWhite
Member
Yikes, didn't catch that (was listening while running). I enjoyed it though, even though I imagine this is well-worn stuff for the folks in this thread.
Aack, I wish I could have taken part in that discussion. It's one of my specialties! I mean, we're working for the same company, right?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah it's definitely no new information for me in there... But it's like a good bedtime story I love to hear one more time
Kind of cool to know that Frank Cifaldi rocks the same XRGB mini + Sony PVM-2530 dual setup that I do.
I'd like to see how they setup their XRGBs. I've spent a lot of time tweaking it and my settings have some pretty significant differences from what you see in various faqs. Hopefully they're all using the most recent firmware as well since major features (which greatly improve image quality) were added in the last year or so.Yeah it's definitely no new information for me in there... But it's like a good bedtime story I love to hear one more time
Kind of cool to know that Frank Cifaldi rocks the same XRGB mini + Sony PVM-2530 dual setup that I do.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Speaking of FM settings, I noticed some weird color problems & artifacts when upscaling 480i on the recommended "Natural" setting. It seems like the color handling is better when set to "Movie" with no artifacts, and it has the same deinterlace settings.
Does anyone know where those recommended settings floating around on like this wiki came from? Also sharpness set to 1 is a dumb idea while I'm at it; even that is artificial sharpening that just seems to snap the source data to a nearby pixel.
Does anyone know where those recommended settings floating around on like this wiki came from? Also sharpness set to 1 is a dumb idea while I'm at it; even that is artificial sharpening that just seems to snap the source data to a nearby pixel.
NormalFish
Banned
I believe -- as it's a wiki -- it's just a random people offering their general findings, but the guy who runs that wiki is incredibly rigid if my experience on shmups is any indication, so that might be a factor.
Movie does some things better, but I have personally found it actually distorts the color a bit due to the noise filter.
Oddly, I notice the filter on SCART on my PS2, but not on component.
Beer Monkey
Member
This is probably of interest to very few of you, but in experimenting with the Wii U component output on my broadcast monitor it has become very apparent that there is some kind of filtering/scaling that always occurs, particularly in Wii mode (where I can use the 240p suite test patterns). I verified that this happens in all different screen size settings (this is in the Wii U control panel display options).
It is of course well established that there is no way to get 240p out from the Wii U component output but I'm now also convinced that the 480i/p image is also compromised by processing of the Wii U video implementation.
I'd witnessed this prior but had assumed that my set was doing a worse job of 480i/p upscaling than I recalled. I also am now confident that this is why I was unable to get satisfactory results using the Wii U 480p with a Framemeister a while back (which turned out to be irrelevant as I can't tolerate the 2 frame lag of the Framemeister when it gets combined with the four-frame minimum lag of my plasma).
I'm recommending playing Wii games on the Wii U only if you are letting Wii U scale them to HD.
It is of course well established that there is no way to get 240p out from the Wii U component output but I'm now also convinced that the 480i/p image is also compromised by processing of the Wii U video implementation.
I'd witnessed this prior but had assumed that my set was doing a worse job of 480i/p upscaling than I recalled. I also am now confident that this is why I was unable to get satisfactory results using the Wii U 480p with a Framemeister a while back (which turned out to be irrelevant as I can't tolerate the 2 frame lag of the Framemeister when it gets combined with the four-frame minimum lag of my plasma).
I'm recommending playing Wii games on the Wii U only if you are letting Wii U scale them to HD.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Yeah, of course I meant 640x480 (double resolution) and transposed the numbers out loud. I'm a writer, not a public speaker.
Actually... Any 480p to a framemeister is compromised in some way. Are you feeding component straight to your monitor?
At any rate your experiment seems like it only accounts for analog output, which is a different story for 480p via HDMI. I also don't fully recommend WiiU upscaling to 1080p if you have a monitor or device that is highly capable of upscaling itself. However it may be a toss up between WiiU and framemeister upscaling. Then again, I can only speak for results from HDMI output.
Hawk269
Member
Question for Framemeister owners.
I have had mine for a few weeks now, but I notice in a lot of games, their is a series of little colored dots on the bottom left side of the screen. It does not show in the game image in itself, but it is usually like under the boarder of the game display. They are multi-colored dots. Is this normal or a way to get rid of them?
I have had mine for a few weeks now, but I notice in a lot of games, their is a series of little colored dots on the bottom left side of the screen. It does not show in the game image in itself, but it is usually like under the boarder of the game display. They are multi-colored dots. Is this normal or a way to get rid of them?
Beer Monkey
Member
I returned the Framemeister weeks ago, it just isn't for me right now given the already high latency of my Kuro plasma.
I spent time this weekend feeding Wii U 480p and 480i component into my DT-V1710CG broadcast crt monitor (it has component and RGB inputs and can scan 240p/480i/576i/720p/1080i and more, and has killer geometry). Pics
While the Kuro is pretty darned good at upscaling (and deinterlacing), the Wii U definitely looks better on the Kuro at 1080p than 480p when playing Wii and Gamecube games. But again, running the Wii U at 480p into a 480p-capable broadcast monitor makes it very apparent that there is filtering occurring when viewing test patterns from the 240p suite. Try it yourself.
I don't currently have WiiU component cables to try it out. Like I said, I can only speak for results of WiiU HDMI digital RGB output. Specifically fed into my Viera ST60, which features artifact free upscaling that is imediately apparent to be better that WiiU and framemeister upscaling.
The filtering you notice is probably limited to analogue output as HDMI appears crystal clear. In fact, on the WiiU dashboard I often forget when I'm in 480p instead of 1080p.
Also, are the 240p test patters you're using actually 480p or just 240p?
Shin Johnpv
Member
Totally normal. It's kind of like bits of the image on a television signal that are normally cut off from the overscan that show up when not on a CRT. It's supposed to be there, just normally cut off. Adjusting settings like zoom, and overscan and such can help you get rid of that stuff.
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