Shin Johnpv
Member
I could have SWORN there was a framemeister thread, I guess I'm wrong on that one, I'd be willing to contribute info for a framemeister official thread if we make one.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
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NormalFish
Banned
Honestly I think splitting up this thread will just cause confusion, since one will undoubtedly get more traffic than the other.
We could make an effort to shuffle some things in the OP around so we can fit in a few FAQs or other links.
We could make an effort to shuffle some things in the OP around so we can fit in a few FAQs or other links.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
A lot of the prose in the OP could be cut down to be more concise. The image comparison could be truncated and moved off to say an imgur gallery. While we're at it we could introduce more extreme problems with composite, especially on HDTVs.
That would make some room for a more comprehensive FAQ.
Or we could make a new topic and reserve post #2.
That would make some room for a more comprehensive FAQ.
Or we could make a new topic and reserve post #2.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, this is in line with what I'm thinking. We have options.
I'm with the latter idea. Are we even close to the post limit for this thread?
Think about the guns (cathodes) as well.
True, but usually has no effect for standard CRTs.
See (*)
Red goes down first for standard CRTs, its cathode burns up faster.
(*)
Phosphor wear (esp. blue) can become an issue when
- very high beam currents are used (very bright studio/projection CRTs), and
- the cathodes can hold out long enough (barium reservoir).
Same here. A separate Framemeister thread would be... weird.
sixteen-bit
Member
CRTs don't have a native resolution per say but I would guess that consumer monitors of that era probably top out at 1280x1024.
About 10 years ago I had a sick 21 inch Sony computer monitor with VGA and BNC connectors that I think went up to like 1600 x 1280 but it crapped out on me. Goodwill find for $10 too, it was great.
Then of course there are cool professional computer CRTs like the GDM-FW900 which some people still use for lag-free PC gaming. Max res 2304x1440.
By standard, you mean TVs and not professional monitors? From what I have read on a... pro video forum I think it was?, the phosphor coating wears out long before the electron guns so that the screen's ability to display blue is compromised before actual blue output of the gun. This makes sense given that burn-in (uneven phosphor wear) can commonly happen when the monitor is otherwise still bright and colorful, plus the advice to turn down brightness and contrast to increase life of the tube (coating wear, not parts failure).
I get a kick out of seeing 22" LaCie CRTs that go for $20 on Craigslist.
geniusbits
Member
What CL are you browsing? In my area (central NJ) people are still trying to get >$100 for really good CRT monitors like that.
bestpersonevar
Member
bestpersonevar
Member
is the size the main issue with it? Space is a concern for me and I have a shelf that this will perfectly fit on.
Standard TVs, yes. There wasn't even a pot for the red gun.
Just saying, in case someone finds its TVs red on the way out.
8 inches is tiny
bestpersonevar
Member
I might get this and then save up for an XRGB mini then.
Shin Johnpv
Member
But there's so little just Framemeister info in the first post.
I understand people talk FM in here, but it doesn't seem like the focus is just on this.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
If we're revamping the OP, starting with clear motivational factors (composite issues, HDTV crappiness, low-end TV problems, etc) would be a good start. Then going into options and general price ranges along with pros/cons for both is a good idea. It's how most people would reasonably approach it.
For example it's pretty sane to start with how the FM is really the only good scaler option at the moment, but it's very expensive and a CRT is a good choice as well. But CRTs have their drawbacks, which are of course well known to us, so an FM is still a very good choice and more future proof.
I don't really think you can discuss scalers for old games without getting into CRTs and they will always be another option... well, for the foreseeable future at least. Similarly, it's hard to talk about CRTs and PVMs without getting into future supply and reliability issues, which just leads you back to highend scalers.
I also think it would be worth spending some space to discuss other options than perfect RGB. S-video gets pushed aside pretty quick but for NTSC consumer TVs it might as well be your goto for SNES, N64, GameCube, and I'd make a strong argument for the latter two as well even with Framemeister. It's also a massive jump from composite and for most people will be good enough. And no need to deal with sync bullshit!
Beer Monkey
Member
There's never enough talk about latency (well, to me). Five frames of lag on your flat panel, two frames of lag in your emulator (I'm including official stuff like Virtual Console, Megaman legacy etc), two frames of lag in your Framemeister, and you just can't have the the real classic experience, period, not with nine frames of latency. It will never feel like playing an old console on a CRT. That should be prominent.
My arcade has 40 year old CRTs that get serviced regularly. Capacitors and solder aren't going out of production. I'm not expecting any major problem keeping PVMs running for 25-30 more years. It's going to cost money and take some effort, sure.
NormalFish
Banned
well yeah, but the first word in the thread title is "upscalers". Framemeister conversation is certainly not divorced from that.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I hope you have a garbage can it'll fit in, too, because an 8" monitor is trash.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
This will make it completely beyond what normal people are willing to do to keep CRTs going. I have enough trouble trying to convince people to solder in new batteries in their cartridges.
We need a new title/thread. I'm with BM, we shouldn't limit ourselves here.
I also find that CRT tech, issues etc. needs to be addressed a bit more.
geniusbits
Member
Where's that? I'm always on the look out for a good CRT service that can help me out for a reasonable price.
geniusbits
Member
Agreed. The experience of having the thread go on for so long is informative as to what most people are interested in and what their questions are. I personally have fielded the same basic "what is the best hook up I can use for this" kind of question many times and I only just started posting here a year ago or so. IMO the OP should reflect the thread as a whole and therefore should be open to evolution as we learn what people are interested in and what the best points to put forward initially are.
Eh, y'all do what you want, I'm just worried if we split it up too much both threads may flounder. I certainly wouldn't be able to follow it as closely as I do this one.
Maybe some of you haven't been around here long enough to remember how this thread and OP has changed/evolved already without starting a new thread/s?
Maybe some of you haven't been around here long enough to remember how this thread and OP has changed/evolved already without starting a new thread/s?
Beer Monkey
Member
The arcade operator himself fixes his own equipment. As is often the case. He learned to do it because of his hobby/career.
I do however have a CRT repair tech here in Cincinnati that I can refer you to if you are nearby.
Peagles has a point. This thread does not move quickly enough to warrant having two separate topics. Sometimes I check in after an entire day has passed and there are only a handful of new posts.
Get a 13-14" PVM or a similar CRT. They're compact little cubes. An 8" CRT is a waste of time for playing games.
Get a 13-14" PVM or a similar CRT. They're compact little cubes. An 8" CRT is a waste of time for playing games.
There is a small scratch/dent on the top left of my BVM screen. It's really not a huge deal, considering it's invisible in most cases, but sometimes it does show (in particular when there is anything light colored in that area). Is there anything that can be done to either repair this or make it less obvious?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
It's not like the thread gets totally dominated by one thing or the other, either. There's a lot of CRT talk right now, but when the OSSC finally drops? Priorities gonna shift.
Part of this week and the last, Framemeister stuff dominated the thread, so I don't think anyone's topic of interest is being left out of the discussion!
Feel like every other CRT monitor has at least one nick to spoil the otherwise perfect image! I think that's damage to the anti-glare coating and not the glass itself. Phonedork had a video where he pried it off without any notable difference. Honestly if that is an anti glare layer, it's pretty damn useless at doing its job and all it really does is protect the glass from scratches.
Feel like every other CRT monitor has at least one nick to spoil the otherwise perfect image! I think that's damage to the anti-glare coating and not the glass itself. Phonedork had a video where he pried it off without any notable difference. Honestly if that is an anti glare layer, it's pretty damn useless at doing its job and all it really does is protect the glass from scratches.
What this thread needs is more capture card talk.=p
Toronto-area Craigslist. I guess there is a disproportionate amount (of CRTs), due to the design/creative business/population-density, but I always find it odd that people go through the hassle of dealing with classifieds to sell something for $20.
Remember: the first rule of Craigslist, is that you never let them take you to a second location...
we also need a corner with situations where this can be minimized greatly with new tech.
like, methods to reduce HDTV lag, what TVs to buy with low lag and what certain models do with progressive 480p signals if you are in the 480p in-between world.
also, things like several console mods should get a corner since a few of them didn't exist when the thread began.
it could be a good thing to wait until the OSSC is out to rewrite the OP. that device is sure to really change things around here. we've got by with the current one for a while and the OSSC is not that far away.
I certainly get the sense that there are more regulars in here for the CRT side of things. However, the thread is painfully slow moving, often. It's hard enough starting a good in depth technical discussion with the pool of posters we have now, and if we split that pool, I think I'll be very unhappy with the result. Don't split the thread. Let's find a way to expand the OP.
If anything, I think we should do the opposite of minimizing our focus to specific areas and actually start addressing more things. Audio, integrate the OLED Vs. Plasma Vs. LCD, 120+ Hz monitors... Just be the GAF's general A/V club. lol
If anything, I think we should do the opposite of minimizing our focus to specific areas and actually start addressing more things. Audio, integrate the OLED Vs. Plasma Vs. LCD, 120+ Hz monitors... Just be the GAF's general A/V club. lol
PumpkinSpice
Banned
OSSC is certainly a factor but... personally I don't think the OSSC is quite enough since by removing s-video you force N64 and probably GameCube into mod-it territory. It's poor deinterlacing options are also a big minus. It'll slot in as an option cheaper (?) than the framemeister at least. Btw how much are we expecting this thing to cost?
Edit:
Let's not.
Edit:
Let's not.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Roughly $200. It's interesting as a way to get SCART on modern displays without introducing additional lag, and it doesn't suffer from the Framemeister's more notable issues (read: resolution switching). For this kinda crowd, it's definitely a big deal.
And c'mon -- S-video? Naaaaah, son.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
S-Video is good! It's a big jump from composite, solves most of it's problem with shit image, it's an easy win for NTSC-U consumer CRTs where it was fairly common, it's a no-mod solution for N64, a no-mod cheap cable solution for GameCube/GBPlayer, it's supported out of box on SNES, Saturn, PS1, N64, Dreamcast, GameCube, PS2.
It's only major drawback is the chroma resolution which is about half the horizontal resolution of a 320x240 frame. This leads some minor color inaccuracy and barely visible artifacts (haloing and high-contrast issues, similar to the 4:2:2 discussion a few days ago). Still on my TV at a normal sitting distance it's hard to even tell.
Edit: Forgot to mention cheaper, more readily available cables for Nintendo systems.
Hell if I were looking for a CRT here I don't think I would even bother if it didn't have s-video & component. With just those two you can go a long way.
It's only major drawback is the chroma resolution which is about half the horizontal resolution of a 320x240 frame. This leads some minor color inaccuracy and barely visible artifacts (haloing and high-contrast issues, similar to the 4:2:2 discussion a few days ago). Still on my TV at a normal sitting distance it's hard to even tell.
Edit: Forgot to mention cheaper, more readily available cables for Nintendo systems.
Hell if I were looking for a CRT here I don't think I would even bother if it didn't have s-video & component. With just those two you can go a long way.
Why not? There's a lot of interesting technology to discus that FM users could appreciate. We already go heavy on the inner workings of CRTs. We could carry that over to HDTVs.
Also, why even limit ourselves to "Retro gaming done right?" RGB and upscaling didn't stop at the 6th generation of consoles. Current/last gen consoles have their own display anomalies that we can can talk about, but can't really carry their own thread. The other day there was some interesting talk in a thread about the PS3's weird internal scaler.
There was a new PAL in the works; "s-video" through one wire.
Kiddy Dong
Member
Input Lag is what eventually lead me to this thread. What started as improving my Melee/PM setup, soon morphed into a journey to get the absolute best image out of my SD consoles. Optimizing image quality as much as possible while keeping input lag at a firm 0.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Actually, that's a fair point. Obviously, we all kinda know what the deal with the Wii's output is, but as far as the 360 or PS3 go? That's a black fucking box.
I also don't know if there's, for example, a good way to play PSP games on a TV. Apparently, PS1 games look great on a PSP outputting to a TV, but only if you're in interlaced mode. Do PSP games also look good on a TV in interlaced mode? Cuz they looked just awful in progressive.
These are questions! I don't have any answers.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I'm not a big fan of TV flamewars.
There are certainly some characteristics like internal chroma subsampling or lag to discuss but I don't think that's internally flawed in any TV tech. Good LCDs are good, good plasmas are good, good oleds are good. And none of those techs differ so substantially that you get into things like pixel aspect ratio issues of CRTs vs modern HDTVs or double strike hacks of established signals to get CRTs to not interlace.
PS3's tragic internal scaler is something of an exception. Everything else that does HDMI is mostly plug and play, make sure your TV isn't overscanning anything and doesn't have any processing on and you're done.
Lol... never realized I was a fanboy of anything. I guess it fits.
So, what is up with this anyway? PS3 literally has no internal scaling at the hardware level? I just read this in another thread.
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