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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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This might sound like a silly question, but is it possible to use RGB Scart on an NTSC Xbox 360? I'd like to use it on the PVM for games that have sub-HD internal resolutions (Ninja Gaiden 2) or OG Xbox games that run better on the 360 (NFL 2k5).
 
I'm *this* close to understanding enough of the injection process to fix all my fuzzy 480i Virtual Console games for TG-16/PCE and make them sharp 240p. That's my goal for this week. You have to get your hands a little dirtier for PC Engine injection than the other VC console targets, the most mature tools only handle the more popular targets. Will update when I'm done.

In sad news, the AV Famicom that I just got from Japan appears DOA. I can't seem to catch a break on eBay lately. :)

This might sound like a silly question, but is it possible to use RGB Scart on an NTSC Xbox 360? I'd like to use it on the PVM for games that have sub-HD internal resolutions (Ninja Gaiden 2) or OG Xbox games that run better on the 360 (NFL 2k5).

Hm, I don't know if you can do that on an NTSC 360. 480i is so flickery for games I'd personally rather do 480p VGA to any cheap old VGA CRT, but I can respect your desire to use your PVM.
 

televator

Member
I'm *this* close to understanding enough of the injection process to fix all my fuzzy 480i Virtual Console games for TG-16/PCE and make them sharp 240p. That's my goal for this week. You have to get your hands a little dirtier for PC Engine injection than the other VC console targets, the most mature tools only handle the more popular targets. Will update when I'm done.

In sad news, the AV Famicom that I just got from Japan appears DOA. I can't seem to catch a break on eBay lately. :)



Hm, I don't know if you can do that on an NTSC 360. 480i is so flickery for games I'd personally rather do 480p VGA to any cheap old VGA CRT, but I can respect your desire to use your PVM.

What's wrong with the Fami?
 

Mega

Banned
In sad news, the AV Famicom that I just got from Japan appears DOA. I can't seem to catch a break on eBay lately. :)

Did you ever get the replacement Ikegami? If so, what did you think of it?

This might sound like a silly question, but is it possible to use RGB Scart on an NTSC Xbox 360? I'd like to use it on the PVM for games that have sub-HD internal resolutions (Ninja Gaiden 2) or OG Xbox games that run better on the 360 (NFL 2k5).

Probably not RGB, but you can definitely do 480i Component with the 360 hooked up to your PVM.
 
What's wrong with the Fami?

Blank screen (CRT syncs, but all black), no sound. Have cleaned cartridges. Will fiddle with it more tonight, maybe the cart slot itself is dirty but it the connectors look pretty shiny when I look down into it.

Did you ever get the replacement Ikegami? If so, what did you think of it?

They didn't replace it they just refunded me and let me keep the broken one. I'll have my CRT repair guy fix it after he fixes my "spare" JVC, though it'll probably be well into summer because he's backed up. I could order another Ikegami but I'm running out of space, I'd rather have the broken one fixed. ;)
 

Mega

Banned
Ah right, forgot about that. But there's always room for more CRTs. Out of space? Never. Go higher!

edIO5R7l.jpg
 
Did you try wiggling the cart back and forth and hitting reset a few times?

Yeah, with 3 or 4 fami carts, but tonight it's isopropyl alcohol + old t-shirt + credit card to scrub the slot out.

Ah right, forgot about that. But there's always room for more CRTs. Out of space? Never. Go higher!

I'm sure at some point I'll have at least six functioning CRTs. Fucking rabbit hole, this sub-hobby is.
 
Hm, I don't know if you can do that on an NTSC 360. 480i is so flickery for games I'd personally rather do 480p VGA to any cheap old VGA CRT, but I can respect your desire to use your PVM.

I happen to have a VGA cable for the 360, haven't used it in years though. Would I be able to get 480i from that if I use it in conjunction with a VGA to 4-BNC adapter?
 
I happen to have a VGA cable for the 360, haven't used it in years though. Would I be able to get 480i from that if I use it in conjunction with a VGA to 4-BNC adapter?

No, the North American 360 detects the VGA cable and then the dashboard limits the resolution choices to 480p minimum.

Like I said, not sure what would happen if you plugged SCART in (with a North American 360).
 
It's been a good evening so far. Got the AV Famicom working (after scrubbing the cart slot out with alcohol...twice), and successfully used injection on Virtual Console to convert Devil's Crush, Blazing Lazers, Galaga '88, and Bomberman '93 from 480i to beautiful 240p.


And I decided I think I need a Hori Super Game Boy Commander.

 

Mega

Banned
Damn dude. Is that your apartment?

That's awesome.

Yeah, in the bedroom of my apartment. It's a very compact setup. I sit 2-3 feet away on the bed or a little further if I want... feels perfect. The two shelves underneath have all the consoles, tight space but it's organized madness.
 
I read the op and have watched some videos and I think a framemeister is the way to go. What will I need to run Wii, SNES and PS2 games through it with the best possible signal?

Also all the instructions seem to be in Japanese. Are there overlays I can order for the remote?
 
I read the op and have watched some videos and I think a framemeister is the way to go. What will I need to run Wii, SNES and PS2 games through it with the best possible signal?

Also all the instructions seem to be in Japanese. Are there overlays I can order for the remote?
It depends a bit on the specific console models you have. For starters check out the retrorgb site.

That said, I can answer most of these.

For the Wii, you'll want component cables. RGB scart can be better but lacks 480p support, and doesn't work without a softmod on NTSC units.

For the SNES, you'll want an RGB scart cable that suits your region (ntsc or pal). If you have a mini, or a specific model of SNES, you won't be able to utilize scart without a hardmod. Generally csync is preferred for models that can use rgb as far as I know.

PS2 is less agreeable. The mini handles Wii pretty well, but PS2 480p can be problematic. For the most part, component is easier. RGB scart offers slightly better color and clarity but doesn't allow for 480p in a format the mini can interpret by itself. Many here have found for 480p sources it's better to let your TV upscale, as the mini doesn't handle it very well. Personally I choose to forego 480p on the whole and use RGB scart with the best iq I can get, allowing the mini to deinterlace (which it does better than basically anything) and upscale.
 
man, finding a 480p crt in australia seems impossible. PLenty of trinitrons, but capping out at 480i. What models do i look for specifically for 480p support? Any brand will do at this stage.
 
It depends a bit on the specific console models you have. For starters check out the retrorgb site.

That said, I can answer most of these.

For the Wii, you'll want component cables. RGB scart can be better but lacks 480p support, and doesn't work without a softmod on NTSC units.

For the SNES, you'll want an RGB scart cable that suits your region (ntsc or pal). If you have a mini, or a specific model of SNES, you won't be able to utilize scart without a hardmod. Generally csync is preferred for models that can use rgb as far as I know.

PS2 is less agreeable. The mini handles Wii pretty well, but PS2 480p can be problematic. For the most part, component is easier. RGB scart offers slightly better color and clarity but doesn't allow for 480p in a format the mini can interpret by itself. Many here have found for 480p sources it's better to let your TV upscale, as the mini doesn't handle it very well. Personally I choose to forego 480p on the whole and use RGB scart with the best iq I can get, allowing the mini to deinterlace (which it does better than basically anything) and upscale.

Thank you. My SNES is ntsc. It's the first gen SNES. I guess what I'm confused on is how to hook the ps2, Wii/GameCube and SNES to this thing. I have all the cables (component for game cube and Wii, composite for SNES and component for ps2) so do I just plug them directly into the front of the unit?
 

D.Lo

Member
man, finding a 480p crt in australia seems impossible. PLenty of trinitrons, but capping out at 480i. What models do i look for specifically for 480p support? Any brand will do at this stage.
Very rare.

Typically giant heavy widescreen CRTs in my experience. I had a Panasonic that did 480p, but it was actually kind of crap to use for non-widescreen games (aka 90% of SD content, basically everything except Wii) because you have this giant heavy box but use a small 4:3 square in the middle of it.

PAL territories had basically no marketing need for 480p (or 567p) because unlike NTSC, PAL had basically no flicker issues. 480p's primary purpose was to reduce flicker for video content, and since you'd see little difference on a show floor for 576p vs 576i there was no drive to include such a feature. As such they are very very rare.

As an aside, Australia kind of got super-screwed for games though, because we had no Scart 99% of the time, but were also stuck with slow/squashed games. Same for NZ (Australia's Canada) mostly I believe.
 
PAL territories had basically no marketing need for 480p (or 567p) because unlike NTSC, PAL had basically no flicker issues. 480p's primary purpose was to reduce flicker for video content, and since you'd see little difference on a show floor for 576p vs 576i there was no drive to include such a feature. As such they are very very rare.

I have to disagree with you there! While I live in NTSC land, I used to travel to Europe regularly 10-15 years ago. Standard def PAL is so flickery due to the low refresh rate (50hz versus 60hz). In fact, 100hz TVs (they draw each field/frame twice, hence the doubled scan rate) got somewhat popular there; I could always tell when my hotel had a 100hz TV instead of a standard PAL 50hz set as soon as I turned it on because there was no flicker!

PAL has more detail, NTSC has less flicker.
 

missile

Member
Ah right, forgot about that. But there's always room for more CRTs. Out of space? Never. Go higher!

edIO5R7l.jpg
Nice!


I have to disagree with you there! While I live in NTSC land, I used to travel to Europe regularly 10-15 years ago. Standard def PAL is so flickery due to the low refresh rate (50hz versus 60hz). In fact, 100hz TVs (they draw each field/frame twice, hence the doubled scan rate) got somewhat popular there; I could always tell when my hotel had a 100hz TV instead of a standard PAL 60hz set as soon as I turned it on because there was no flicker!

PAL has more detail, NTSC has less flicker.
NTSC became pretty decent after all stabilizing networks were in place.

Primary advantage of PAL was its intrinsic phase/color stability.
 

Khaz

Member
Yep, the technology in the tube to have 480p is the same as 576i 100Hz, but you can't really have both (for the same price). PAL manufacturers decided to go for 100Hz as it helps with flickering on every source without having to upgrade the output. 480p is mostly useful if the source itself is in higher resolution, else it's just upscaling / line doubling. So not really useful for broadcast TV, who didn't want to change their hardware. Was there ever 480p broadcast in NTSC land?
 

Khaz

Member
I've discovered a fetish for watching people make cables. Any good youtube channels?

I hate making cables. I always end up melting the plastic and bending pins sideways. Watching other people making cables would be either sadistic or frustrating. So no thanks.
 

D.Lo

Member
I have to disagree with you there! While I live in NTSC land, I used to travel to Europe regularly 10-15 years ago. Standard def PAL is so flickery due to the low refresh rate (50hz versus 60hz). In fact, 100hz TVs (they draw each field/frame twice, hence the doubled scan rate) got somewhat popular there; I could always tell when my hotel had a 100hz TV instead of a standard PAL 60hz set as soon as I turned it on because there was no flicker!

PAL has more detail, NTSC has less flicker.
I was going on a hypothesis for why 480p was added to NTSC TVs, but going to disagree with lots experience comparing the two refresh rates. PAL TVs could handle 60Hz 480i signals since the early 90s and we regularly watched things in both formats (eg NTSC VHS tapes) on the exact same screens. No more noticeable flicker for PAL due to the framerate.

I had the opposite experience myself, when I went to the US the TVs looked crap and flickery and washed out. Crappy broadcast quality? I was in the NY region most of the time. Maybe it's just what you're used to.

Yep, the technology in the tube to have 480p is the same as 576i 100Hz, but you can't really have both (for the same price). PAL manufacturers decided to go for 100Hz as it helps with flickering on every source without having to upgrade the output. 480p is only useful if the source itself is in higher resolution, so not really useful for broadcast TV, who didn't want to change their hardware. Was there ever 480p broadcast in NTSC land?
Does not 480p reduce flicker on standard broadcasts by basically doubling the scan? Yes you'd still get alternating information on each off/even line, but the screen itself is updating each line twice as often, so the flicker is faster and thus less noticeable?

Effectively the same principle as 100Hz scanning?
 
Thank you. My SNES is ntsc. It's the first gen SNES. I guess what I'm confused on is how to hook the ps2, Wii/GameCube and SNES to this thing. I have all the cables (component for game cube and Wii, composite for SNES and component for ps2) so do I just plug them directly into the front of the unit?
Alright, I accidentally left that out, sorry!

The mini doesn't take scart or component by itself. Instead it has a dterminal (Japanese component) and 8din connection for RGB. When you order your mini, assuming you order via Solaris, they'll also have female component male dterminal adapters. you want one.

There will also be an adapter that comes with the mini that looks like it would fit scart. DO NOT USE IT WITH RGB SCART CABLES. It's wired for jp21, which uses the same connector but wired differently and mixing them up can hurt your electronics. Label it asap. Then, go online and order a proper RGB scart to 8din connector from retro cconsole accessories on eBay or retrogamingcables on their UK based site. The passive adapter will work fine.

...and that's pretty much it as far as I can recall. Remember to update your firmware. Instructions can be found easily on Google. Firebrandx has profiles for most major consoles that work well. again, can be found via googling.

Hope that helps. pardon the lack of links and some spelling errors. Typing on my phone.
 
Alright, I accidentally left that out, sorry!

The mini doesn't take scart or component by itself. Instead it has a dterminal (Japanese component) and 8din connection for RGB. When you order your mini, assuming you order via Solaris, they'll also have female component male dterminal adapters. you want one.

There will also be an adapter that comes with the mini that looks like it would fit scart. DO NOT USE IT WITH RGB SCART CABLES. It's wired for jp21, which uses the same connector but wired differently and mixing them up can hurt your electronics. Label it asap. Then, go online and order a proper RGB scart to 8din connector from retro cconsole accessories on eBay or retrogamingcables on their UK based site. The passive adapter will work fine.

...and that's pretty much it as far as I can recall. Remember to update your firmware. Instructions can be found easily on Google. Firebrandx has profiles for most major consoles that work well. again, can be found via googling.

Hope that helps. pardon the lack of links and some spelling errors. Typing on my phone.

Thanks for the reply. So the RGB scart to 8din connector will allow me to plug in component or composite cables?
 
Thanks for the reply. So the RGB scart to 8din connector will allow me to plug in component or composite cables?

RGB cables. The adapter looks like this. Plug RGB SCART cable in the female end, smaller, 8din male connection goes in to the front of the Mini.

You need the Dterminal/Component adapter for the component cables. Looks like this. You plug the 3 component video (red/blue/green) leads in to the adapter, which then plugs in to the framemeister, and you plug the 2 audio leads directly in to the framemeister.

Composite video is pretty terrible, and although the framemeister will take it, you should really avoid it if possible.

Another thing I accidentally omitted, is that you should look for higher quality SCART cables. For PS2 you want "Luma sync". If you get a generic cable or a "composite-video-for-sync" cable, you will get a checkerboard pattern. The SNES can use csync or luma for sync I believe, though I'm not positive.
 
Depends on the model of SNES, I BELIEVE the later 1 chip ones that do RGB natively can do Csync but need to have it restored with a mod.

To answer RoninChaos's other questions. You can get an overlay for the controller that will have english on it. You can find these on ebay or from http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk There's also english versions of the firmware so when you get yours and update its firmware make sure to do so with the english one.

If you order your framemeister from Solaris Japan you can buy one with the Dterminal to component adapter for a little less than buying them separately.

For your systems I would buy a csync RGB cable for your SNES, and use component for everything else you have listed.

The framemeister has a variety of inputs on it. Let's see if I can do this from memory but on the back are Dterminal (including audio jacks for it) and 2 HDMI inputs. On the front is the 8pin din for RGB, S-Video, and Composite. I'll note that the S-video and composite in share audio jacks.

Oh also note that the RGB to 8pin din that comes with the Framemeister is a JP21 adapter. It looks exactly the same as SCART but the pin outs are different. You can go with JP21 RGB cables, but they tend to be less common than SCART. So you just need to make a decision before buying your cables if you're going to go SCART or JP21. If you go SCART than you need to buy the adapter that NormalFish linked above.
 
That you for taking the torch. The rabbit hole is deep enough I never go far enough.

Might be time again we debate making some changes to the OP? I realize it's tight on space but we can use the 2nd post, right? Is That poster active?

Would be really nice to put together a bunch of frequently asked questions such as recommended cables and adaiters and such.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
That you for taking the torch. The rabbit hole is deep enough I never go far enough.

Might be time again we debate making some changes to the OP? I realize it's tight on space but we can use the 2nd post, right? Is That poster active?

Would be really nice to put together a bunch of frequently asked questions such as recommended cables and adaiters and such.

I kinda like that post though, it really exemplifies the start of the journey we have all been going through these last few years.
 
That you for taking the torch. The rabbit hole is deep enough I never go far enough.

Might be time again we debate making some changes to the OP? I realize it's tight on space but we can use the 2nd post, right? Is That poster active?

Would be really nice to put together a bunch of frequently asked questions such as recommended cables and adaiters and such.

IrishNinja is still active. Don't we have a framemeister thread? I was going to say we need a Framemeister FAQ and to maybe add it to the OP, but then I realized I think we have a FM thread. Maybe that needs to be linked in the thread.
 
RGB cables. The adapter looks like this. Plug RGB SCART cable in the female end, smaller, 8din male connection goes in to the front of the Mini.

You need the Dterminal/Component adapter for the component cables. Looks like this. You plug the 3 component video (red/blue/green) leads in to the adapter, which then plugs in to the framemeister, and you plug the 2 audio leads directly in to the framemeister.

Composite video is pretty terrible, and although the framemeister will take it, you should really avoid it if possible.

Another thing I accidentally omitted, is that you should look for higher quality SCART cables. For PS2 you want "Luma sync". If you get a generic cable or a "composite-video-for-sync" cable, you will get a checkerboard pattern. The SNES can use csync or luma for sync I believe, though I'm not positive.

Depends on the model of SNES, I BELIEVE the later 1 chip ones that do RGB natively can do Csync but need to have it restored with a mod.

To answer RoninChaos's other questions. You can get an overlay for the controller that will have english on it. You can find these on ebay or from http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk There's also english versions of the firmware so when you get yours and update its firmware make sure to do so with the english one.

If you order your framemeister from Solaris Japan you can buy one with the Dterminal to component adapter for a little less than buying them separately.

For your systems I would buy a csync RGB cable for your SNES, and use component for everything else you have listed.

The framemeister has a variety of inputs on it. Let's see if I can do this from memory but on the back are Dterminal (including audio jacks for it) and 2 HDMI inputs. On the front is the 8pin din for RGB, S-Video, and Composite. I'll note that the S-video and composite in share audio jacks.

Oh also note that the RGB to 8pin din that comes with the Framemeister is a JP21 adapter. It looks exactly the same as SCART but the pin outs are different. You can go with JP21 RGB cables, but they tend to be less common than SCART. So you just need to make a decision before buying your cables if you're going to go SCART or JP21. If you go SCART than you need to buy the adapter that NormalFish linked above.


Thank you both. That was my big hurdle, figuring out what hooks to what since I don't have the equipment in front of me. When I looked up info on all of this I could never find pictures of people's actual setups (showing how things connected) so with all these different types of hook ups it got confusing.

Any suggestions on a Scart switch or hub? I have a lot of things I want to hook up. Same for component. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 
Any suggestions on a Scart switch or hub? I have a lot of things I want to hook up. Same for component. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

The Bandridge 5-port SCART switch is probably the most recommended. It comes in auto-switching (detects active input and switches by itself), which requires power, or manual-switching.

You can find them on eBay and Amazon from time to time.

There is a Hama 3 port switch, too. It's cheaper and people assert it degrades the signal, but I own both the Bandridge and the HAMA and believe that the effects are negligible.

http://retrorgb.com/scartswitches.html - lists them all out, including the ones to avoid.
 
Thank you both. That was my big hurdle, figuring out what hooks to what since I don't have the equipment in front of me. When I looked up info on all of this I could never find pictures of people's actual setups (showing how things connected) so with all these different types of hook ups it got confusing.

Any suggestions on a Scart switch or hub? I have a lot of things I want to hook up. Same for component. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

SCART switches are expensive I don't have one myself. The RetroRGB site had a homebrew one up for pre-order for just over 200 bucks that did 8 inputs, but its sold out right now.

As far as a component switcher I personally have the original version of the Pelican 8-Port system switcher pro. The powered one. It looks like this but silver http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002MHF22/?tag=neogaf0e-20 .

I haven't had any issues with it, and it hasn't introduced any noise into my set up. I've seen some people mention that it did theirs, but for myself and my friend ours have been great. (*edit* and I should add that I've had mine since the day it launched, going back to the early 2000s. I was working at a funcoland at the time and bought it as soon as we got them in, and mine's been used since then *edit*)

You could maybe check ebay for them, I'm not really sure of what current component switchers are good.

I would REALLY REALLY recommend for you to watch the My Life in Gaming's RGB Master Class videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/mylifeingaming/playlists?view=50&shelf_id=1&sort=dd

They'll probably answer 99% of the questions you'll have on different systems and the framemeister.
 

Mega

Banned
The Bandridge 5-port SCART switch is probably the most recommended. It comes in auto-switching (detects active input and switches by itself), which requires power, or manual-switching.

You can find them on eBay and Amazon from time to time.

There is a Hama 3 port switch, too. It's cheaper and people assert it degrades the signal, but I own both the Bandridge and the HAMA and believe that the effects are negligible.

http://retrorgb.com/scartswitches.html - lists them all out, including the ones to avoid.

The Hama switches don't degrade the signal at all. It's an excellent Scart switch and you can chain a couple together without any problems. There are lookalike switches and some of those are actually crap. The only downsides is the three inputs only as you mentioned, and the fact that these too have gotten rarer and expensive.
 

IrishNinja

Member
That you for taking the torch. The rabbit hole is deep enough I never go far enough.

Might be time again we debate making some changes to the OP? I realize it's tight on space but we can use the 2nd post, right? Is That poster active?

Would be really nice to put together a bunch of frequently asked questions such as recommended cables and adaiters and such.

IrishNinja is still active. Don't we have a framemeister thread? I was going to say we need a Framemeister FAQ and to maybe add it to the OP, but then I realized I think we have a FM thread. Maybe that needs to be linked in the thread.

that's all the work of SixFortyFive, god bless 'im. and do we have an XRGB thread? if so, i should prolly link that!
 
that's all the work of SixFortyFive, god bless 'im. and do we have an XRGB thread? if so, i should prolly link that!

Yeah, I realize. I don't know of a XRGB thread. Seems redundant if we do. I might be able to write something up with editing-by-comity if we can put together a list of topics we think should be added. And if we can PM the guy with the 2nd post or similar.

Just feels like we've got tens of pages discussing various singular topics, and the OP doesn't have room for them, so they come up again and again.
 

Maxpacker

Member
Thank you both. That was my big hurdle, figuring out what hooks to what since I don't have the equipment in front of me. When I looked up info on all of this I could never find pictures of people's actual setups (showing how things connected) so with all these different types of hook ups it got confusing.

Any suggestions on a Scart switch or hub? I have a lot of things I want to hook up. Same for component. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have this component switch and its excellent and cheap: http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=3027

Wish scart switches werent so damn expensive. I still just plug and unplug all my systems .
K9RbKM1.jpg
[/IMG]
 
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