The circle of (retro gaming) life.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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The circle of (retro gaming) life.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
While all PVMs are CRTs, not all CRTs are PVMs, though.
Incorrect! PVMs have been LCD (and now OLED) since 2005 or so.
Still, I'm not getting your meaning. Mentioning CRTs in the title alone covers all the PVMs relevant to this thread. That should be enough.
Oh and unlike the FM being the one serious option for the upscale crowd, there are several CRT equivalents to the Sony pro monitors. Too much PVM focus fools newcomers into thinking it's the holy grail and the one real option, tossing aside rationality to obtain a pricier PVM in the face of equal and better priced alternatives.
IrishNinja
Member
you don't think commercially available CRT's make a distinction from harder-to-find/typically higher quality commercial PVM's, though?
yeah, a brief section highlighting which systems are RGB out of the box, and how to get the best signals out of the others would likely be helpful, and could be done with an image as well! there's only so many changes there...few new NES options, that N64 HDMI board, etc. i don't know that id do specific XRGB settings, as even the wiki largely drops the ball on that...personally, i really dig just linking to people's profiles, but if ya'll are down, i could see it being useful!
and yeah, Fudoh & some others have built absolutely amazing resources, but there's definitely not an all-in-one quite yet, and whoever does will likely get some solid ad revenue, haha. i'd host, but my forum takes up too much space as-is...but yeah, as far as building something like that here, i'm down! maybe we could get a mod to abuse the 2nd post of the thread?
yeah, a brief section highlighting which systems are RGB out of the box, and how to get the best signals out of the others would likely be helpful, and could be done with an image as well! there's only so many changes there...few new NES options, that N64 HDMI board, etc. i don't know that id do specific XRGB settings, as even the wiki largely drops the ball on that...personally, i really dig just linking to people's profiles, but if ya'll are down, i could see it being useful!
and yeah, Fudoh & some others have built absolutely amazing resources, but there's definitely not an all-in-one quite yet, and whoever does will likely get some solid ad revenue, haha. i'd host, but my forum takes up too much space as-is...but yeah, as far as building something like that here, i'm down! maybe we could get a mod to abuse the 2nd post of the thread?
Incorrect! PVMs have been LCD (and now OLED) since 2005 or so.
Ha, I noticed this a couple days ago. I was like wow, this site has new PVM's! ....that are $13,000...and LCD...wait, what?
Definitely, but it's more accurate to make the distinction between consumer CRTs and professional monitors, not just one brand of pro monitor. Not sure how to fit all that into the title in a non clumsy way! I guess it's okay if PVM is like a stand-in for the standard RGB monitor.
IrishNinja
Member
ahh, yeah, you're right - i don't know that people hear PVM and automatically hear RGB monitors as well...might just be me though
NormalFish
Banned
PVM still means, literally, "Professional Video Monitor" to me. It might be a specific brand but it sounds really general to me.
Beer Monkey
Member
Thread title should just say CRT. It blankets pro/broadcast monitors (as used for retro gaming, where the new LCD/OLED sets aren't what we are looking for), arcade monitors, and televisions. And they all get discussed here.
IrishNinja
Member
^again though, PVM and CRT talk have been different beasts in here, though. i chose both to not have anyone excluded
that's true, too
that's true, too
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
is anyone running an xrgb mini (specifically ps1, ps2 and snes/genesis games) on a pioneer kuro? would love impressions. mine is on the way.
Anyone in the UK after a NEC XM-2950G? First time i've ever seen one of these listed on UK ebay. Be interesting to see what it fetches!
NEC XM-2950G
NEC XM-2950G
IrishNinja
Member
panny plasma, which is as close as i could get to a kuro!
IrishNinja
Member
man, so long as you guys aren't trying to play RE2 (N64), you've made a great decision! haha, for real - i know i've told this story a few times, but mine was also through Solaris (that d terminal/component cable was grand) and when my remote died, they replaced it for me like champs! couldn't be happier.
IrishNinja
Member
nah, the overlay & cables for each system are most of the work! up to you if you wanna invest in a switchbox, if you've any small SD cards about, they'd help for profiles!
NormalFish
Banned
definitely want a microSD card. size doesn't really matter since you need basically no space. Profiles are invaluable and you need it to update firmware, regardless.
Component -> Dterminal adapter and a EU SCART adapter are both very useful, as well.
Component -> Dterminal adapter and a EU SCART adapter are both very useful, as well.
Yeah, i ordered with the component->D Terminal, and already asked the famous ebayer that makes cables for all of gaf to get me a bunch of cables some days ago. The micro SD is a good one though, hadnt really thought about that. Guess I have one that i use with my Game Boy Player, but might as well just get a dedicated one, so thanks alot for that!
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, NormalFish is on the money - you use so little space, it's worth tossing in whatever you still have in MB about, if at all! also, the XRGB wiki in the OP's links should have a guide to get your on-screen menus in english, since they'll default to japanese.
Beer Monkey
Member
You're going to have cumulative lag of five to seven frames. You might start noticing lag for the first time, but this is very personal and YMMV.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think it'd be silly to remove PVM from the title. It's one of those major topics that comes up in the discussion of console picture perfection. We don't want to be in the position of explaining the existence of PVMs every time CRTs come up. If people see CRT they think consumer TV. PVM implies alternative options.
I really don't get the thread reworking conversation that's been going on the last few pages. This thread does what it says on the tin. It's an investigation into the myriad options for picture perfection. Separating them out seems like someone's really into classification nerdery. Did this start with the scanlines not really being scanlines thing?
I say leave it all as is. Changing it will not alter the discussion for the better, so just don't.
I really don't get the thread reworking conversation that's been going on the last few pages. This thread does what it says on the tin. It's an investigation into the myriad options for picture perfection. Separating them out seems like someone's really into classification nerdery. Did this start with the scanlines not really being scanlines thing?
I say leave it all as is. Changing it will not alter the discussion for the better, so just don't.
whiteninja
Member
Ive been wanting to get a crt screen for a small cart setup with a saturn mainly. I was originally looking for something 19" but I wasnt sure if I could ever find a consumer crt with component inputs (do they have those at that size?)
But I came across this and I might be able to do a local pickup and avoid the high shipping fee. Is this a good set? I wanted something 19" but the prices are astronomical on those and my original tv I used for nes and snes was a 13 incher.
But I came across this and I might be able to do a local pickup and avoid the high shipping fee. Is this a good set? I wanted something 19" but the prices are astronomical on those and my original tv I used for nes and snes was a 13 incher.
Beer Monkey
Member
I have a 20" Toshiba flat CRT TV with component input that I bought for like $30 off of Craigslist actually.
theSlacker
Member
You guys run out of stuff to talk about or something? The thread is fine and pls stop trying to splinter everything off into it's own thread. I have enough subscriptions already.
NormalFish
Banned
Don't you get giddy when you have lots of new posts to read, though?
**
Unrelated, could anyone with a sfc (or SNES, really) test something for me?
If you plug it in via RGB to the framemeister and turn it on without a game, does it find a signal? or does it come back "no signal" or whatever?
IrishNinja
Member
fishy if no one answers that for you by later tonight, i will!
NormalFish
Banned
I'd appreciate it. No real rush, just anxious to make sure this sfc functions but lacking a game lol.
Professional Video Monitor is Sony specific phrasing but it does read generic. It would be nice for PVM as a catch all for all pro monitors to be reflected by the content in the OP... it only touches on Sony PVMs/BVMs and the very rare NEC XMs that hardly anyone can get.
Because of the res switching, right? Going into the menu on my PVM-14L2 causes the screen to go black for a couple of seconds over RGB, and brief vertical shaking over S-Video.
IrishNinja
Member
exactly that - i had no idea how much res-switching the game was doing. i make it to the gun store owner a few minutes in before tossing in the towel...people bitch about Saturn SOTN port, but this one's legit unplayable for me.
That would be annoying as hell for someone who records games like me since my capture device only handles one res at a time.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
Yeah, crazy how it switches from one screen to the next. Literally the same stretch of hallway in one part of the police station. I could be wrong but does the game stick to 240p if you use the standard Jumper Pak? 480i seems to only be enabled in some games because of the Expansion Pak.
IrishNinja
Member
And?? thoughts!!??
colors just shine - obviously, the blacks feel comparable to CRT levels, but RGB on formerly washed-out composite colors (Genesis, NES) really make you appreciate the games on another level, i think. i'm not the biggest videophile on here by a longshot, but the custom profiles & good use of scanlines just do wonders for 240p content (most of what i play) and despite what others say, i think it handles a lot of the 480i stuff i've thrown at it good as well
oh shit, i'd not tried this yet, you might be onto something here! fuck though, if that's the case i wonder what other games using said pak will be like here
Don't you get giddy when you have lots of new posts to read, though?
**
Unrelated, could anyone with a sfc (or SNES, really) test something for me?
If you plug it in via RGB to the framemeister and turn it on without a game, does it find a signal? or does it come back "no signal" or whatever?
No signal for me. Even does no signal if my carts are in but aren't quite reading for whatever reason.
Just tested it. Went from the car crash to the police station. Entirely 240p with the Jumper Pak. Only downside is character models appear to be lower quality but maybe that's because half the lines are being drawn on screen.
I was running it on two monitors:
-PVM S-Video, no shake when pausing into the menu, scanlines visible at all times.
-JVC at 480p with HDFury converter that shows on screen when the res changes. Remained progressive throughout.
With the game on Expansion Pak, the HDFury shows how damn often the res changes: a SECOND after boot up it switches to interlaced, then changes back for the FMV intro, then back to 480i in the title screen. Then of course the screen to screen craziness + 240p menus when you actually start playing. The cutscene with the gun shop owner is 240p and the area where he stands remains like that, until you move away and come back to his spot and it's back to 480i. There's seemingly no rhyme or reason for all of this in regards to the prerendered scene and how many enemies are on screen. What purpose did any of this ridiculous res changing serve?
I was running it on two monitors:
-PVM S-Video, no shake when pausing into the menu, scanlines visible at all times.
-JVC at 480p with HDFury converter that shows on screen when the res changes. Remained progressive throughout.
With the game on Expansion Pak, the HDFury shows how damn often the res changes: a SECOND after boot up it switches to interlaced, then changes back for the FMV intro, then back to 480i in the title screen. Then of course the screen to screen craziness + 240p menus when you actually start playing. The cutscene with the gun shop owner is 240p and the area where he stands remains like that, until you move away and come back to his spot and it's back to 480i. There's seemingly no rhyme or reason for all of this in regards to the prerendered scene and how many enemies are on screen. What purpose did any of this ridiculous res changing serve?
IrishNinja
Member
cheers Mega! good to know it's playable.
oh yeah, DC version all day - really, it's just kinda impressive they kept as much intact in the port, i think. like SF Alpha on SNES (but better, haha) - it was fine if that's all you had access to in the day, but i'd not play through that version today!
oh yeah, DC version all day - really, it's just kinda impressive they kept as much intact in the port, i think. like SF Alpha on SNES (but better, haha) - it was fine if that's all you had access to in the day, but i'd not play through that version today!
Shin Johnpv
Member
I already listed a bunch in the very post you quoted.
Plus to me I never understood why it was all lumped together. Usually playing on a PVM or CRT means you're not upscaling. I get it that its about playing retro games and getting the best picture from them, but we have a generic retro thread too. TO me the PVM/CRT route and the upscaling route are two very different beasts, and I don't see why they can't have their own threads.
The general retro thread is for collecting and any stuff that doesn't fit in a dedicated thread though. Displaying your retro stuff is this thread.
I know I wouldn't partake in an upscaler thread, as I have absolutely no interest in playing on a laggy TV through a laggy converter with weird artifacts and stupid downtimes when the resolution changes, when the ideal solution exists and is cheap. As such I would never had been able to answer Peagle's question about modifying her Scart-BNC adapter to output to her Framemeister, for example.
With a thread dedicated to upscalers, you keep knowledge out of people wanting to play their old games. The new people would never be aware of the greatness that are CRTs, and that there are other solutions than using a modern TV to play games.
This is a partisan thing. Again, I want to stress that this thread started as very biased towards the upscaling solution, and that #teamcrt started to propose alternative means to play games out of frustration, noticing that many people didn't even know about this solution, and many of them were happy to change their mind and go to the obviously superior CRT way.
I don't want to say that a CRT is the absolute best in every situation, and I'm aware that for some people an upscaling solution is better for them. But to make the decision of what is the display setup they really want, they need to be educated on both. Having two separate threads would fail in that regard.
I know I wouldn't partake in an upscaler thread, as I have absolutely no interest in playing on a laggy TV through a laggy converter with weird artifacts and stupid downtimes when the resolution changes, when the ideal solution exists and is cheap. As such I would never had been able to answer Peagle's question about modifying her Scart-BNC adapter to output to her Framemeister, for example.
With a thread dedicated to upscalers, you keep knowledge out of people wanting to play their old games. The new people would never be aware of the greatness that are CRTs, and that there are other solutions than using a modern TV to play games.
This is a partisan thing. Again, I want to stress that this thread started as very biased towards the upscaling solution, and that #teamcrt started to propose alternative means to play games out of frustration, noticing that many people didn't even know about this solution, and many of them were happy to change their mind and go to the obviously superior CRT way.
I don't want to say that a CRT is the absolute best in every situation, and I'm aware that for some people an upscaling solution is better for them. But to make the decision of what is the display setup they really want, they need to be educated on both. Having two separate threads would fail in that regard.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Khaz is right. I wouldn't have bothered getting into that mini discussion over RE2 with IrishNinja and confirming one way it is playable for FM users. There are greater, more technical discussions that wouldn't happen with two separate threads.
D.Lo
Member
I run a PVM and an XRGB. I really like both and like having them both discussed here.
It's a 'Retro games RGB display discussion thread' for me.
They have a lot in common - scart, sync issues, switches, display preferences (non-scanline width etc), specific console issues (eg jailbars, weak sync).
I think that element would be significantly weakened with separate threads.
It's a 'Retro games RGB display discussion thread' for me.
They have a lot in common - scart, sync issues, switches, display preferences (non-scanline width etc), specific console issues (eg jailbars, weak sync).
I think that element would be significantly weakened with separate threads.
NormalFish
Banned
Alright good shit. Still no clue if it works but it definitely doesn't not work thus far.
...lol.
It's a good way to obtain Csync from any source and looks and works best on the FM. If you've gone all in on coaxial cables, you might as well get full use of that.
So, sync stripper and coaxial it is then? Or did I misunderstand?
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