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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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televator

Member
Lol... never realized I was a fanboy of anything. I guess it fits.



So, what is up with this anyway? PS3 literally has no internal scaling at the hardware level? I just read this in another thread.

PS3 does have an internal hardware scaler, but Sony limited its use to horizontal scaling for some uncanny reason. So uncanny, that people hold fast to the idea that the hardware scaler doesn't exist. However, I'll standby on Sony's own SDK docs until someone can come up with hard proof otherwise.

Edit: Anybody have some thoughts on this? Reduce the footprint of component video cables. would this create any loss in quality?
 

Mike Golf

Member
So, what is up with this anyway? PS3 literally has no internal scaling at the hardware level? I just read this in another thread.

It's hardware upscaling only supported horizontal scaling instead of both vertical and horizontal when it came to upscaling to 1080p, so developers usually output the native 720p resolution (or if it was sub-native the upscaled 720p) although some implemented their own internal scaling.
 

ToD_

Member
Feel like every other CRT monitor has at least one nick to spoil the otherwise perfect image! I think that's damage to the anti-glare coating and not the glass itself. Phonedork had a video where he pried it off without any notable difference. Honestly if that is an anti glare layer, it's pretty damn useless at doing its job and all it really does is protect the glass from scratches.

THANKS!!! I just did this and now I have a completely scratch-free screen.

I removed the bezel and used a sharp knife around the edges of the screen. It's important to cut deep enough on the edges so it lets go once you start removing the film. It took a while before I had an edge strong enough to pull the film in its entirety.

imJy8d5.jpg


The material is stronger than I imagined. Afterwards I used rubbing alcohol to remove some of the remaining glue, which wasn't much.
 

Khaz

Member
I'm not sure about this procedure :/ Now every future scratch will be truly permanent.

Maybe you can find replacements for it?
 

ToD_

Member
Cool, do you see any difference with the layer off? Try with overhead lights on and whatnot.

I will have to try it later with lights on, but the reflections from the nearby windows are similar. The anti-reflection coating may help a little, but it's subtle. I just tried to hold the peeled film in front of it and didn't notice much of a difference.
The film also makes the screen a very small amount dimmer. The image seem to look a little brighter with it off. Unfortunately I didn't do a before/after comparison.

I'm not sure about this procedure :/ Now every future scratch will be truly permanent.

Maybe you can find replacements for it?

I am not too concerned about scratching it. I'm careful with the monitor, unlike the previous owner. I don't think I want a replacement, even if it was offered.
 

missile

Member
Scroll up, we're referring to the idea of having a separate XRGB/Framemeister thread. ...
Who, who wants that? Buttons are fine over here! :+


Edit:

... The material is stronger than I imagined. ...

I will have to try it later with lights on, but the reflections from the nearby windows are similar. The anti-reflection coating may help a little, but it's subtle. ...
Perhaps that's the coating saving one from an implosion by accident?
 

Mega

Banned
Perhaps that's the coating saving one from an implosion by accident?

That's terrifying. :eek:

But the coating is for anti glare. It's mentioned in Wikipedia's Trinitron article (which looks super interesting and I need to read some day soon).

This is a polyurethane sheet coated to scatter reflections and can be very easily damaged. The fix is to simply remove the sheet entirely, which one can do on Trinitron and Diamondtron CRT Monitors using a Stanley blade and a chopstick.[21] Many users claim that removal of the anti-glare coating increases the overall light output of the display and results in more vivid colors and a sharper picture, but at the expense of reduced contrast and (as expected) increased reflection from light sources in front of the display screen

If the actual glass gets scratched, you can buff out the scratches, so not necessarily permanent.
 

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
Was thinking of getting the X-Capture over the Startech equivalent because of the pass-through being built in. Any reason I should aside from price of course?

Ready to go NESRGB on my AV Famicom. Any recommended installers?

I had mine installed by Baphomet here and he did a great job I'm pretty satisfied. :)
 

Jams775

Member
I don't know if this is the best thread to ask but I have a question.

I have a Philips 42" plasma from ~2007 and it does 720p and up to 1080i. My question is, for a plasma is interlaced better? I'm pretty sure progressive scan is better for LCD TV's but I'm not sure about plasma. Right now I have a Wii U running to it through component.

Edit: Damn Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze looks clean af on 1080i
 
Jams, that's one of those things you have to try both ways since the display is actually 1366x768 or something like that and the internal scalers and deinterlacers vary by make and model.
 

televator

Member
I don't know if this is the best thread to ask but I have a question.

I have a Philips 42" plasma from ~2007 and it does 720p and up to 1080i. My question is, for a plasma is interlaced better? I'm pretty sure progressive scan is better for LCD TV's but I'm not sure about plasma. Right now I have a Wii U running to it through component.

Edit: Damn Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze looks clean af on 1080i

That's really going to come down to the internal scaler like Beer said. It would have to be good at deinterlacing to remove combing artifacts while keeping the image sharp enough for you to appreciate the added gain in detail in the set's true native resolution.
 
Peagles has a point. This thread does not move quickly enough to warrant having two separate topics. Sometimes I check in after an entire day has passed and there are only a handful of new posts.




Get a 13-14" PVM or a similar CRT. They're compact little cubes. An 8" CRT is a waste of time for playing games.

Plus those 8 inch monitors are still long so not really good for a shelf. Might as well hold off for a 13 inch.
 

Madao

Member
i went and did another N64 HDMI vs CRT lag comparison video.

i did it in 60 fps this time because someone suggested it in my previous vid because a 20 fps game was a bad idea. this time, the cam and game are 60 so i get the best outcome possible with my gear.
the only lag i could see is the lag that is native to my TV. anyone who's delved into HD gaming but wants to have the lowest lag possible knows that all HDTVs have it. it's a good thing to see that the N64 HDMI is on the level of an HD console when displayed on an HDTV and has no additional lag anywhere (with direct mode at least. processed modes that do upscaling have 1 frame of lag)
 

missile

Member
It came up as an alternative to reworking the OP such that a bunch of the FAQ we receive are included. No consensus though, obviously.
Didn't thought they wanted another thread in the process for that.


May improve safety just in case. But as Maga said.

That's terrifying. :eek:

But the coating is for anti glare. It's mentioned in Wikipedia's Trinitron article (which looks super interesting and I need to read some day soon). ...
I guess this is the case.

The implosion problem was solved in the 60ties by Valvo (tube A59-11W).
 

Peltz

Member
i went and did another N64 HDMI vs CRT lag comparison video.

i did it in 60 fps this time because someone suggested it in my previous vid because a 20 fps game was a bad idea. this time, the cam and game are 60 so i get the best outcome possible with my gear.
the only lag i could see is the lag that is native to my TV. anyone who's delved into HD gaming but wants to have the lowest lag possible knows that all HDTVs have it. it's a good thing to see that the N64 HDMI is on the level of an HD console when displayed on an HDTV and has no additional lag anywhere (with direct mode at least. processed modes that do upscaling have 1 frame of lag)

That's the perfect way to test this stuff. Thanks for sharing it.
 
i went and did another N64 HDMI vs CRT lag comparison video.

i did it in 60 fps this time because someone suggested it in my previous vid because a 20 fps game was a bad idea. this time, the cam and game are 60 so i get the best outcome possible with my gear.
the only lag i could see is the lag that is native to my TV. anyone who's delved into HD gaming but wants to have the lowest lag possible knows that all HDTVs have it. it's a good thing to see that the N64 HDMI is on the level of an HD console when displayed on an HDTV and has no additional lag anywhere (with direct mode at least. processed modes that do upscaling have 1 frame of lag)

Really cool vid. Thanks for sharing.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Going to buy some new cables from Retro_Game_Accessories on ebay (for N64, Gamecube, PS1 and PC-Engine), and she asked me if I want regular or coaxial cabling. Any quick tip on what that question means?
 

Timu

Member
Going to buy some new cables from Retro_Game_Accessories on ebay (for N64, Gamecube, PS1 and PC-Engine), and she asked me if I want regular or coaxial cabling. Any quick tip on what that question means?
Better shielding to have less interference/cross talk between video and audio. In short, reduces audio buzzing which is common with scart cables.
 

Peltz

Member
Going to buy some new cables from Retro_Game_Accessories on ebay (for N64, Gamecube, PS1 and PC-Engine), and she asked me if I want regular or coaxial cabling. Any quick tip on what that question means?

I went for the coaxial. Might as well get the best.
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Better shielding to have less interference/cross talk between video and audio. In short, reduces audio buzzing which is common with scart cables.

I went for the coaxial. Might as well get the best.

Thought it was this, just didnt know it used to be called coaxial. Since I have 9 systems im hopefully going to have plugged in at once, I guess its better to get coaxial then.
 
Any opinions here on American Dynamics PVMs? I see a couple pop up online here and there but I haven't seen much coverage about them from a gaming perspective.
 

Peagles

Member
This is gonna be a longshot, but does anyone know how to reverse the directionality on SCART to component cables? I run one from my main switch to my PVM, but I want to use another one to run from the PVM (using BNC on the RCA bits) to my Framemeister. Hooking it up doesn't work so I'm guessing it's because of the direction of the cable. Is there any way I can crack the SCART end open and change something to make it go the other way?
 

Khaz

Member
Csync is directional, you may have to swap pins 19 and 20 in your scart cable.

[edit] wait, scart to component cables? As in RGB? I need more info on it. It's probably designed to work one way only, you won't be able to change that.
 

Peagles

Member
Csync is directional, you may have to swap pins 19 and 20 in your scart cable.

[edit] wait, scart to component cables? As in RGB? I need more info on it. It's probably designed to work one way only, you won't be able to change that.

Well they're branded as SCART to component cables, but I use them to carry RGB signals. Basically the same as the male SCART to male BNC adapters people use to go from SCART switch to PVM.

Or I just need a recommendation for a good cable to go from my PVM output to my Framemeister... :p
 

Khaz

Member
Ok so they don't actually have electronics in them to transpose the colour space.

Yeah, you just need to swap the csync pin in the adapter you want to use as output, and you should be fine.

[edit] If you're having audio through your PVM (which I wouldn't recommend, as it may add noise), you need to swap it too. Swap 1/2, 3/6 for audio L and R, and 19/20 for csync.
 

Peagles

Member
Ok so they don't actually have electronics in them to transpose the colour space.

Yeah, you just need to swap the csync pin in the adapter you want to use as output, and you should be fine.

[edit] If you're having audio through your PVM (which I wouldn't recommend, as it may add noise), you need to swap it too. Swap 1/2, 3/6 for audio L and R, and 19/20 for csync.

No transcoding no, sorry they're really common here so it's probably something I take for granted!

Awesome thanks, I'll give it a shot. After I finish my thesis of course. /finalgrindletsgo
 
Got an email from RetroRGB saying the SCART switch I ordered from them has finally shipped. So, between that and the parts for an RGB NES shipping as well (although I need to ship those right back out to baph - and pay him, while I'm at it - when they get here), this is going to be an entertaining week or two.
getin.001jlk72.gif
 

Arzehn

Member
Is going from a normal CRT to a PVM-14N5U (comp, s-video) a worthwhile upgrade? Ebaying for 14" (in Canada) with RGB is at cheapest 230CAD with shipping, but there's a 14N5U which is like $100 cheaper than that. Or is a 14N5U not worth the difference from say a consumer trinitron?
 

IrishNinja

Member
i too think 2 threads is excessive
i'm all for "evolving" OP's - this one has, several times - but we're at the character limit, and 645 was really thorough in both his research, options & useful links. i'm really not seeing what's changed in the scene that's not answered there currently

I'm with the latter idea. Are we even close to the post limit for this thread?

we're at the limit, as it is - 645 packed a ton of info in there

I always just thought of this as the Framemeister thread, been lots of discussion about it here for years.

that's what it's been for me as well!

But there's so little just Framemeister info in the first post.

I understand people talk FM in here, but it doesn't seem like the focus is just on this.

my original post was FM-dominated, and i wanted this thread to grow well beyond it - which it did. honestly, there's lnks to fudoh, the XRGB wiki, the SHMUPs thread (ton of ongoing info) etc already there, and those are the only resources i personally use, outside of these excellent profiles. granted, 645 isn't a huge fan of the device, but i thought he put due diligence in there on it, what exactly would you guys want in that's missing about it?

If we're revamping the OP, starting with clear motivational factors (composite issues, HDTV crappiness, low-end TV problems, etc) would be a good start. Then going into options and general price ranges along with pros/cons for both is a good idea. It's how most people would reasonably approach it.

ehhh, disagree - there's enough in there about HDTV problems, and i don't think anything beyond "it's shit" needs be said about composite. also, how do you price stuff like old monitors/CRT's that are often tossed, or sometimes overpriced? no thread would fit that.

This thread started mainly as an upscaler thread though, so I guess this is where the confusion stems from. It was later hijacked by CRT fanboys and the OT was rewritten to accommodate for them too.

CRT are the superior option so I'm ok with this.

this dude recalls, haha
 

televator

Member
i



we're at the limit, as it is - 645 packed a ton of info in there

I meant the total amount of individual posts for the whole thread. It's customary to start a new OT once a thread reaches a long enough post count. If we start a new OT, author should reserve the first 2 or 3 posts for a longer FAQ.
 

Mega

Banned
^I think we need to get to 400 pages (50 posts per page) before a new thread is needed. We're about 100 short :p

Is going from a normal CRT to a PVM-14N5U (comp, s-video) a worthwhile upgrade? Ebaying for 14" (in Canada) with RGB is at cheapest 230CAD with shipping, but there's a 14N5U which is like $100 cheaper than that. Or is a 14N5U not worth the difference from say a consumer trinitron?

I'm gonna say no because too many classic consoles have RGB or Component out of the box. Hold out and keep looking. A better deal will come along.
 
my original post was FM-dominated, and i wanted this thread to grow well beyond it - which it did. honestly, there's lnks to fudoh, the XRGB wiki, the SHMUPs thread (ton of ongoing info) etc already there, and those are the only resources i personally use, outside of these excellent profiles. granted, 645 isn't a huge fan of the device, but i thought he put due diligence in there on it, what exactly would you guys want in that's missing about it?

The FM gets like 2 lines in the current OP I don't see how this is the FM thread. There's so many questions around the FM, that new people to the thread come in asking. I swear I've answered like the same 5 questions about the FM time and time again.

The FM is a pretty complex product, you need to source an english overlay for the remote, where to get english firmware, how to update the firmware, how to create or save your own profiles, how to use the zoom function which is super important. What inputs does it have, how many of each, what do I need to get with it for it to make my consoles work with it.

There's an endless stream of questions in regards to the FM and hell half the time this thread is about PVMs.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Hmm, I haven't checked eBay or Craigslist for local pro monitors recently, let's look into that...

Edit: Nothing on Craigslist, only the same 8" and 9" models that have been on eBay forever. Sigh.

Guess I should have made that Lafayette road trip when I had the chance. Oh well, I guess something else will pop up in the future.
 

Peagles

Member
The FM gets like 2 lines in the current OP I don't see how this is the FM thread. There's so many questions around the FM, that new people to the thread come in asking. I swear I've answered like the same 5 questions about the FM time and time again.

The FM is a pretty complex product, you need to source an english overlay for the remote, where to get english firmware, how to update the firmware, how to create or save your own profiles, how to use the zoom function which is super important. What inputs does it have, how many of each, what do I need to get with it for it to make my consoles work with it.

There's an endless stream of questions in regards to the FM and hell half the time this thread is about PVMs.

Replace FM with PVM and the above is still true. I'm not seeing more than a couple of lines about PVMs in the OP. Those who have been here awhile will know we constantly answer the same questions over and over again too lol...

I'm not seeing any imbalance in the OP, though it is 5:30am here... A bulk of the OP is general info applicable to both. In fact skimming over it again we have a lot more links out to XRGB material than we do for PVMs. Like Irish, they're the only resources I use for my FM too, aside from the odd hiccup which I'll ask about in here to someone more experienced, but not before looking through google results and other forums.

If we wanted a whole post full of XRGB info, maybe someone could make a resource post now that the OP could link to? Would it be any more useful than the wiki though?
 

Mega

Banned
The FM gets like 2 lines in the current OP I don't see how this is the FM thread. There's so many questions around the FM, that new people to the thread come in asking. I swear I've answered like the same 5 questions about the FM time and time again.

The FM is a pretty complex product, you need to source an english overlay for the remote, where to get english firmware, how to update the firmware, how to create or save your own profiles, how to use the zoom function which is super important. What inputs does it have, how many of each, what do I need to get with it for it to make my consoles work with it.

There's an endless stream of questions in regards to the FM and hell half the time this thread is about PVMs.

As someone who doesn't own an upscaler and has no interest in one atm, it feels to me that much of the discussion in this thread is about the Framemeister or, in the same vein, how to get old games to display nicely on newer TVs (Nintendont on Wii U, HDMI modded consoles). If you people keep coming here asking questions about the FM, that would indicate a good level of interest and discussion around the FM... and a solid confirmation that this is at least partially the FM thread.

Sometimes I feel weird even discussing CRTs too much, and try to consolidate all my replies to as few posts as possible (or even PMing people aside), because there's this feeling that 1) I may get repetitive and annoy regulars and 2) I'm in the FM Club which sometimes dominates the direction of the thread discussion. That's my biased POV as a CRT fan, and you may see it differently with your interests firmly elsewhere.

But if you still think the FM doesn't get enough attention, keep in mind it's a single expensive product that not everyone owns vs. the many RGB displays that each get a comparatively small fraction of attention. CRTs as a whole are a larger and more complex topic (through sheer variety, depth of mysteries and knowledge behind old CRT tech). At best (worst?), CRTs split the thread 50/50 with that ONE upscaling device.

edit: jus to be clear, I don't mind FM/upscaler discussion. I think it's a valuable resource to have and I could see myself perusing old posts if/when I own one of these devices in the future.
 
As someone who doesn't own an upscaler and has no interest in one atm, it feels to me that much of the discussion in this thread is about the Framemeister or, in the same vein, how to get old games to display nicely on newer TVs (Nintendont on Wii U, HDMI modded consoles). If you people keep coming here asking questions about the FM, that would indicate a good level of interest and discussion around the FM... and a solid confirmation that this is at least partially the FM thread.

Sometimes I feel weird even discussing CRTs too much, and try to consolidate all my replies to as few posts as possible (or even PMing people aside), because there's this feeling that 1) I may get repetitive and annoy regulars and 2) I'm in the FM Club which sometimes dominates the direction of the thread discussion. That's my biased POV as a CRT fan, and you may see it differently with your interests firmly elsewhere.

But if you still think the FM doesn't get enough attention, keep in mind it's a single expensive product that not everyone owns vs. the many RGB display that each get a comparatively small fraction of attention. CRTs as a whole are a larger and more complex topic (through sheer variety, depth of mysteries and knowledge behind old CRT tech). At best (worst?), CRTs split the thread 50/50 with that ONE upscaling device.

I don't have CRTs and don't mind CRT or PVM specific (BNC, service menus, etc) discussion in this thread at all.

The FM gets so much discussion because it's like the one good retro scaler on the market at the moment that's available for a decent price and purchasable new from stores in at least 1 country in the world. Also because it has a lot of quirks and is almost entirely presented by it's manufacturer in Japanese.

You could have a separate FM thread but you can't really even go there without getting into "you could instead just go to a junk shop and buy a $20 trinitron." You could have a separate CRT thread but you can't even get very far in that without "isn't there any way to just run this on my Samsung HDTV cause I don't want CRT squeal in my life any more" which just leads you back to the FM. They both solve the 240p problem.

I've kind of always viewed this thread as "retro done right" in terms of better than RF/composite and what that means to you can be any number of different things. Some people say only PVM + RGB or else they're not doing it. Some people say the only way is to run everything on a low end consumer CRT with better than composite. Some people want to run everything with the video quality similar to an emulator just with proper native hardware, which is where I am. Maybe there are people that are fine with emulators but they want to run them all on their Wii at 240p. This thread should be welcoming for all these people.
 
This thread is definitely general purpose on the retro front to me and I like it that way. I've almost caught myself posting Everdrive questions here, even, though staying display-centric is probably the way to go.
 

IrishNinja

Member
I meant the total amount of individual posts for the whole thread. It's customary to start a new OT once a thread reaches a long enough post count. If we start a new OT, author should reserve the first 2 or 3 posts for a longer FAQ.

ohhh...my bad, yeah we've a lot more pages to go for that! though if it was me doing OT2? i'd keep damn near all of the OP here, but then use the next post for specific XRGB links & FAQ for the most common stuff, then maybe one more for say, the most common systems & how to get what signal from them, that shouldn't be too terribly difficult. if anyone wanted to do a mini-FAQ on say, PVM's & monitors, that'd work too

The FM gets like 2 lines in the current OP I don't see how this is the FM thread. There's so many questions around the FM, that new people to the thread come in asking. I swear I've answered like the same 5 questions about the FM time and time again.

The FM is a pretty complex product, you need to source an english overlay for the remote, where to get english firmware, how to update the firmware, how to create or save your own profiles, how to use the zoom function which is super important. What inputs does it have, how many of each, what do I need to get with it for it to make my consoles work with it.

There's an endless stream of questions in regards to the FM and hell half the time this thread is about PVMs.

right, but like all of that is in the wiki link - again, i agreed with 645 that my original thread was (due to my setup, natch) too XRGB specific, when there's other options. if you don't mind though, what specific questions have you fielded a few times now? that could help us draw up a mini-FAQ to save time!

As someone who doesn't own an upscaler and has no interest in one atm, it feels to me that much of the discussion in this thread is about the Framemeister or, in the same vein, how to get old games to display nicely on newer TVs (Nintendont on Wii U, HDMI modded consoles). If you people keep coming here asking questions about the FM, that would indicate a good level of interest and discussion around the FM... and a solid confirmation that this is at least partially the FM thread.

Sometimes I feel weird even discussing CRTs too much, and try to consolidate all my replies to as few posts as possible (or even PMing people aside), because there's this feeling that 1) I may get repetitive and annoy regulars and 2) I'm in the FM Club which sometimes dominates the direction of the thread discussion. That's my biased POV as a CRT fan, and you may see it differently with your interests firmly elsewhere.

its funny, cause 645 & a few others prior were usually disparaging the XRGB for its input lag, highlighting the earlier models as clearly superior for this. and i appreciate your consideration, i know i used to troll #TeamCRT/PVM before joining them both, haha!

I've kind of always viewed this thread as "retro done right" in terms of better than RF/composite and what that means to you can be any number of different things. Some people say only PVM + RGB or else they're not doing it. Some people say the only way is to run everything on a low end consumer CRT with better than composite. Some people want to run everything with the video quality similar to an emulator just with proper native hardware, which is where I am. Maybe there are people that are fine with emulators but they want to run them all on their Wii at 240p. This thread should be welcoming for all these people.

well put, man - this is exactly what the changed title/OP was meant to reflect!

This thread is definitely general purpose on the retro front to me and I like it that way. I've almost caught myself posting Everdrive questions here, even, though staying display-centric is probably the way to go.

yeah, i tend to put everdrive questions in the respective system threads & people have been most helpful! which is great, cause many other retro forums, you gotta wade through a few jerks going on about how important overpriced software is to them and blah blah blah before someone actually responds
 

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Like sheepy said, I always viewed this thread mostly as "retro gaming done right", meaning questions about how to get the max out of old consoles. And I think I would prefer for it to stay that way. Would be awesome with a Framemeister FAQ though, as I am going to order one (finally!) this week.
 
Really if there's one section that needs more information, it's the console specific stuff. That's the majority of faqs we get. Within that section things like "what to look for in a display" or "recommended xrgb settings" could be included, allowing for expansion through that rather than through the specific crt and xrgb info.

That said, I've been debating putting something together for this. might just buy a domain on WordPress or some shit and start consolidating information from across the net.

The real issue with these things is the lack of single sources with easily digestible information. There's simply too much information, and too much outdated input across so many various forums that a lot of it comes across as noise.
 
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