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[NormalFish]

240p/240i on PSP TV out is basically just for PS1 games. PSP games are windowboxed with black borders.

Yeah, it's letterboxed windowboxed 480p, right?

Okay yeah, it's a 720x480p signal. I would expect something like MSA to be pixel perfect. I don't have psp component cables or I'd check.

PSP games are 480x272 so it puts that inside a 720x480 output with thick black bars on all four sides. I don't use it. PS1 games are lovely though.

Yeah that's what I said lol. That shouldn't impact the IQ of the MSA collection for PSP.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Yeah, it's letterboxed windowboxed 480p, right?

Okay yeah, it's a 720x480p signal. I would expect something like MSA to be pixel perfect. I don't have psp component cables or I'd check.

PSP games are 480x272 so it puts that inside a 720x480 output with thick black bars on all four sides. I don't use it. PS1 games are lovely though.

 

[Beer Monkey]

In my haste I misspoke a bit. I do use the component out on PSP for PSP games sometimes. I do not if it is for games where there is a version available on traditional consoles in 240p. For example, I have no interest in playing Symphony of Night on the PSP via CRT when I can play the PS1 version, likewise for Darkstalkers and so on, this eliminates a fair amount of PSP games.

Like Mega, when I do play PSP games on my broadcast monitor, I adjust the H and V sizes up so the image is larger (and this makes scanlines apparent in 480p).

On an unrelated note, the number of cocktail arcade cabinets on my local Craigslist where the CRT has been replaced with an LCD makes me want to barf.

 

[socksfelloff]

Mega Man X Collection is already 240p(during gameplay).

fuck I never tried the ps2 version. For some reason I assumed since the gamecube version doesnt support 240p the ps2 version wouldnt either.

 

[IrishNinja]

not sure if anyone else saw, but the framemeister profile page got updated, and it looks great! it's now per system, and even the TG16 & peripherals like the genny's Power Base Converter got one, can't wait to try these out!

 

[geniusbits]

not sure if anyone else saw, but the framemeister profile page got updated, and it looks great! it's now per system, and even the TG16 & peripherals like the genny's Power Base Converter got one, can't wait to try these out!

If you wanted to throw scan lines on his profiles (he doesn't use them right?) would you just pump up brightness to compensate, or brightness and gamma and something else?

 

[Mike Golf]

cross posting from the SNES thread, but the question is probably better suited here anyway

Is this the correct SCART cable for SNES (original NTSC one)?

Since it does not specifically state that it is SCART wired for NTSC, no. To get RGB out of a NTSC SNES you need either a JP21 cable or SCART wired for NTSC.

EDIT: Sorry, did not read the more detailed description; this is a SCART cable wired for NTSC and is CSYNC which is the preferred sync method for any SNES but mini's or One chip 3rd revisions.

 

[dubc35]

Since it does not specifically state that it is SCART wired for NTSC, no. To get RGB out of a NTSC SNES you need either a JP21 cable or SCART wired for NTSC.

EDIT: Sorry, did not read the more detailed description; this is a SCART cable wired for NTSC and is CSYNC which is the preferred sync method for any SNES but mini's or One chip 3rd revisions.

Thanks, yes I thought it was correct. I may have been confusing my terms too. I have a US SNS-001 model.

Speaking of, I have noticed I have a serial number sticker on top of another serial number sticker on the back of my SNES. I bought this new ~1994 or so and it has always been in my possession. It's odd that it has two serial number stickers, lol.

 

[Mega]

Since it does not specifically state that it is SCART wired for NTSC, no. To get RGB out of a NTSC SNES you need either a JP21 cable or SCART wired for NTSC.

EDIT: Sorry, did not read the more detailed description; this is a SCART cable wired for NTSC and is CSYNC which is the preferred sync method for any SNES but mini's or One chip 3rd revisions.

What's a 1Chip third revision? The typical 1Chip SNES works fine with CSync Scart cables.

 

[IrishNinja]

If you wanted to throw scan lines on his profiles (he doesn't use them right?) would you just pump up brightness to compensate, or brightness and gamma and something else?

hmm...really, i just enable them, myself. even on my panny plasma, nothing ive thrown at his settings so far feels too dark!

 

[Peagles]

What's a 1Chip third revision? The typical 1Chip SNES works fine with CSync Scart cables.

1CHIP-03, as opposed to a 01 or 02.

 

[Mike Golf]

1CHIP-03, as opposed to a 01 or 02.

Yep, with the 1Chip-03 you have to use sync on luma.

 

[speedlolita]

Alright boys we in there. I've been on an adventure.

Shout outs to speedlolita for inadvertently giving me the only working copy of uLaunchElf on the internet. Installed FMCB and OPL from that. No more need for dicking with DVDs any more.

Just so you understand, those images were specifically created for use on a debug. Any other images you would have found will have worked just fine on a chipped machine. Also, you got FreeMCBoot installed? I didn't think that was possible due to the differences in the debug and retail hardware. Has been some years since I last tried it mind you!

 

[NormalFish]

Just so you understand, those images were specifically created for use on a debug. Any other images you would have found will have worked just fine on a chipped machine. Also, you got FreeMCBoot installed? I didn't think that was possible due to the differences in the debug and retail hardware. Has been some years since I last tried it mind you!

So uLE needs to be compiled in a specific way for compatibility with the debugs? Wonder why I never found anything about that before.

I have a 5k, which is compatible with FMCB, unlike all the other fats and the tool (I think the slim debugs should work?). 3ks definitely don't work, unfortunately.

The thing that really threw me for a loop was how few 5ks there are, though. At least in the hands of homebrew writers and enthusiasts like us. There's very little information about them that I could find, including the little quirks of homebrew compatibility.

 

[speedlolita]

The disc needed authoring yes, uLaunchELF is a browser for booting PS2 executables (ELF files).

You're quite lucky that your 50k can work with FMCB though, if I want to use my HDD I have to boot the disc every time.

Luckily I use discs pretty much always. There's an issue with most PS2 HDD software too in that it doesn't emulate the write and read speed of a DVD/CD drive correctly. This isn't an issue for all games, but stuff like Bemani games require it for correct sync of the note chart and the BGM. Someone did write software that does have that write limitation in place, should really look into it again tbh. Games from the HDD are sooo smooth after all.

 

[Mega]

1CHIP-03, as opposed to a 01 or 02.

Yep, with the 1Chip-03 you have to use sync on luma.

Ah thanks. I wasn't aware there were three versions of the 1Chip!

 

[NormalFish]

The disc needed authoring yes, uLaunchELF is a browser for booting PS2 executables (ELF files).

You're quite lucky that your 50k can work with FMCB though, if I want to use my HDD I have to boot the disc every time.

Luckily I use discs pretty much always. There's an issue with most PS2 HDD software too in that it doesn't emulate the write and read speed of a DVD/CD drive correctly. This isn't an issue for all games, but stuff like Bemani games require it for correct sync of the note chart and the BGM. Someone did write software that does have that write limitation in place, should really look into it again tbh. Games from the HDD are sooo smooth after all.

Did you just patch it with Disc Patcher 3? Did you do the manual masterpatching with CDGEN? Or is it something else that needs doing?

I also mostly use discs. I just find my unit is really not pleased with running games burned on to DVDs, masterpatched or otherwise, though. So I'm using this method to launch editted PS2 titles (that 240p patch, and soon DQV in english).

How do you move files to your HDD? do you use something to rip them directly to the HDD or do you have a USB to IDE adapter or what?

 

[speedlolita]

You can rip them with HD software usually. Using a USB to IDE thingy is by far the fastest method though. At one stage I was even FTPing games to the HDD.

I'm sure those discs were authored manually. Someone on ASSEMbler made them, not me. DiscPatcher 3 wouldn't work on non retail software either.

 

[NormalFish]

Oh I see. I find assembler difficult to navigate so I didn't spend a hell of a lot of time looking there. Good to know.

I didn't realize disc patcher 3 didn't work on nonretail software. That might explain some quirks I was experiencing

 

[speedlolita]

ASSEMbler got very crowded since I was browsing it in 09. But it is a great resource for dev hardware! I just happened to stumble across those images and figured they might be useful for someone else so hosted them.

I've never successfully authored a piece of software manually I'm ashamed to say. There's a Brazilian guy called l_oliviera on there though - he's an absolute genius when it comes to this stuff and many other topics. Believe he pheonixed CPS2 cleanly and also worked out the CPS3 encryption.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I go there from time to time just to look at pictures of rare shit

 

[Platy]

If you have RGB Scart on an HDMI Upscaler on a SNES how much improvement can you expect from the component cables HD Retrovision kickstarted ?

 

[dubc35]

If you have RGB Scart on an HDMI Upscaler on a SNES how much improvement can you expect from the component cables HD Retrovision kickstarted ?

I asked about the HD Retrovision cables a week ago or so when backers started to get them and no one replied. I'm not sure if anyone here has one yet (for SNES or Genesis), or if there were any backers. We may have to wait until they sell outside the kickstarter.

 

[speedlolita]

I go there from time to time just to look at pictures of rare shit

That was the initial appeal tbh!

 

[theclaw135]

fuck I never tried the ps2 version. For some reason I assumed since the gamecube version doesnt support 240p the ps2 version wouldnt either.

Mega Man Anniversary Collection is 480i only on gamecube and ps2 (no 240p scenes at all). The xbox port added 480p upscaling.

Mega Man X Collection, which was by a completely different dev team, switches back and forth between 240p and 480i.

 

[Platy]

I asked about the HD Retrovision cables a week ago or so when backers started to get them and no one replied. I'm not sure if anyone here has one yet (for SNES or Genesis), or if there were any backers. We may have to wait until they sell outside the kickstarter.

A friend got his today ... which is why I am asking.

Might have to go there do some tests then =P

 

[dubc35]

A friend got his today ... which is why I am asking.

Might have to go there do some tests then =P

Yeah it looks like backers are/have getting/got them. I am interested in them as well.

Please share your impressions if you are able to spend some time with your friends cable (that sounds weird lol).

 

[Peltz]

If you have RGB Scart on an HDMI Upscaler on a SNES how much improvement can you expect from the component cables HD Retrovision kickstarted ?

Uhhh zero...

The cables are just transcoding RGB to component. They will not upscale.

The "HD" in HD Retrovision makes no sense. It's the same 240p signal that you get with a SCART cable in a different format.

They will still look like shit on a modern display that cannot properly interpret 240p. They will still be better than composite though for the average layman.

The major benefit to these cables is that most modern sets in the US don't take SCART but will take component. And most consumers don't have a box to transcode SCART to component so this cable is a streamlined solution for them. But it still won't look good. You'll need a dedicated upscaler and most of them are built for SCART anyway so these cables are fairly pointless.

 

[Timu]

Uhhh zero...

The cables are just transcoding RGB to component. They will not upscale.

The "HD" in HD Retrovision makes no sense. It's the same 240p signal that you get with a SCART cable in a different format.

They will still look like shit on a modern display that cannot properly interpret 240p. They will still be better than composite though for the average layman.

Even their site notes that:

"NOTE: Our component cables clarify the original Standard-Definition video signals provided by the consoles. This enhancement is not a result of a High-Definition output. See our FAQ for more details."

So HD, is, uh...hmm.

 

[socksfelloff]

Mega Man Anniversary Collection is 480i only on gamecube and ps2 (no 240p scenes at all). The xbox port added 480p upscaling.

Mega Man X Collection, which was by a completely different dev team, switches back and forth between 240p and 480i.

Thanks for the clarification.


As for the HD cables you guys are all wrong. Genesis output 240p in HD. These cables just bring the Snes up to par ^_^

 

[Peltz]

Thanks for the clarification.


As for the HD cables you guys are all wrong. Genesis output 240p in HD. These cables just bring the Snes up to par ^_^

True... My Genny does say "hi-definition" right near the cart slot

 

[dubc35]

Thanks for the clarification.


As for the HD cables you guys are all wrong. Genesis output 240p in HD. These cables just bring the Snes up to par ^_^

High Definition Graphics!!

SD Retrovision just doesn't have the same ring

 

[sixteen-bit]

True... My Genny does say "hi-definition" right near the cart slot

HDG FTW

I'm so lucky I found one for $3

 

[Mega]

HD Retrovision is just a marketing name to attempt to sell units. Everything from emulator boxes to websites to YouTube channels is "Retro Something" nowadays. I'm actually tired of the unoriginality. If I had a channel or site, I wouldn't throw retro in the title out of fear of being drowned out by thousands of competitors with similar titles. It's like people don't think things through with their branding. Well, that's exactly it.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

HD Retrovision is just a marketing name to attempt to sell units. Everything from emulator boxes to websites to YouTube channels is "Retro Something" nowadays. I'm actually tired of the unoriginality. If I had a channel or site, I wouldn't throw retro in the title out of fear of being drowned out by thousands of competitors with similar titles. It's like people don't think things through with their branding. Well, that's exactly it.

But breh SEO

 

[Mega]

Google entirely rewrote how its search results work. SEO in the form of manipulating the search rankings with keywords hasn't worked for at least several years now. If the product is exciting and popular and people seek it, it will trend up naturally. Retro____ splattered across a website will not do that.

 

[speedlolita]

"HD" as in RGB I guess - given you guys didn't have it natively as we did over the pond.

 

[NormalFish]

HD = high definition = literally more definition
works for me lol

ASSEMbler got very crowded since I was browsing it in 09. But it is a great resource for dev hardware! I just happened to stumble across those images and figured they might be useful for someone else so hosted them.

I've never successfully authored a piece of software manually I'm ashamed to say. There's a Brazilian guy called l_oliviera on there though - he's an absolute genius when it comes to this stuff and many other topics. Believe he pheonixed CPS2 cleanly and also worked out the CPS3 encryption.

Yeah, I've dug through old threads. SP193 and oliviera are invaluable resources. I posted on psx-scene and got some help there, as they both post there and there are quite a few devs active on their ps2 board.

My comment on assembler was mostly pertaining to relatively new discussion, as the way their boards are divided frequently make it difficult to look for specifics.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I picked up a USB3HDCAP this week and am starting to mess around with it, though my time is limited.

I was honestly quite skeptical about it being able to capture my consoles and coexist with my CRT right out of the box, but was pleasantly surprised when I ran 240p/16khz RGBs from my broadcast monitor's output into the VGA->DVI adapter that was included and OBS displayed and captured my SNES and Saturn immediately on my Windows 10 PC. Not using a sync strike or anything that I didn't already have. Was surprised that it would take CSYNC on the VGA pin 13, which is technically for HSYNC only, but it works like a champ.

If anybody has good resources on how to capture it really well, though (integer scaled, no judder, displaying the test suite drop shadow test perfectly, et al), please point me in the right direction!

 

[Timu]

I picked up a USB3HDCAP this week and am starting to mess around with it, though my time is limited.

I was honestly quite skeptical about it being able to capture my consoles and coexist with my CRT right out of the box, but was pleasantly surprised when I ran 240p/16khz RGBs from my broadcast monitor's output into the VGA->DVI adapter that was included and OBS displayed and captured my SNES and Saturn immediately on my Windows 10 PC. Not using a sync strike or anything that I didn't already have. Was surprised that it would take CSYNC on the VGA pin 13, which is technically for HSYNC only, but it works like a champ.

If anybody has good resources on how to capture it really well, though (integer scaled, no judder, displaying the test suite drop shadow test perfectly, et al), please point me in the right direction!

What capture program are you using? Also the sync strike is perfect for this, I have one and works flawlessly.

 

[Beer Monkey]

What capture program are you using? Also the sync strike is perfect for this, I have one and works flawlessly.

I'm using OBS, so far. Why would I buy a sync strike when the capture device is syncing perfectly to RGBs? The device absolutely works with CSYNC.

 

[Timu]

I'm using OBS, so far. Why would I buy a sync strike when the capture device is syncing perfectly to RGBs? The device absolutely works with CSYNC.

Oh, I never really use that capture software, only use AmaRecTV. I'm wonder why you are having these issues while I don't have them at all, and my capture card has similarities to yours!

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Finally got my Genesis RGB cables for my Sony 1354Q PVM

Wow that looks awesome.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Oh, I never really use that capture software, only use AmaRecTV. I'm wonder why you are having these issues while I don't have them at all, and my capture card has similarities to yours!

Looks like it's trying to do some deinterlacing. I'll try to do AmaRec. My initial goals are:

1) Capturing 240p with perfect checkerboard and horizontal line patterns in the test suite. I've pretty much got this nailed.
2) Horizontal scroll test (the Sonic one) in the test suite showing no judder.
3) Drop shadow test in the test suite working perfectly. It looks great most of the time but if I move the shadow certain places it flickers erratically.

All using a 1-chip SNES with RGB mod.

Update: AmaRec is doing much better. Scroll test, grids, and checkerboards perfect capturing 720x240 4:3. Drop shadow has issues sometimes, probably some kind of deinterlacing attempt by the software. Will dig deeper.

 

[Cartman86]

EDIT: had a bunch of questions, but nevermind. Plugged console directly into Framemeister and it's still noisy. I'll figure that out myself.

Anyways my remaining question.

1. Will light guns work with RGB SCART cables on a PS1? Do I just use the lightgun adapter that uses composite? What I want to do is basically this.

Plug a PS1 into an HDTV through Framemeister and SCART, but also have it connected to a CRT for lightgun games at the same time. I have a 4x2 s-video/composite matrix right now and am willing to buy one of those expensive SCART matrices. Is this possible at all?

 

[NormalFish]

Looks like it's trying to do some deinterlacing. I'll try to do AmaRec. My initial goals are:

1) Capturing 240p with perfect checkerboard and horizontal line patterns in the test suite. I've pretty much got this nailed.
2) Horizontal scroll test (the Sonic one) in the test suite showing no judder.
3) Drop shadow test in the test suite working perfectly. It looks great most of the time but if I move the shadow certain places it flickers erratically.

All using a 1-chip SNES with RGB mod.

Update: AmaRec is doing much better. Scroll test, grids, and checkerboards perfect capturing 720x240 4:3. Drop shadow has issues sometimes, probably some kind of deinterlacing attempt by the software. Will dig deeper.

You can disable AmaRec's deinterlacing in, iirc, the 3rd menu from the left in the config screen. it ruins anything that's already progressive.

 

[Khaz]

1. Will light guns work with RGB SCART cables on a PS1? Do I just use the lightgun adapter that uses composite? What I want to do is basically this.

Plug a PS1 into an HDTV through Framemeister and SCART, but also have it connected to a CRT for lightgun games at the same time. I have a 4x2 s-video/composite matrix right now and am willing to buy one of those expensive SCART matrices. Is this possible at all?

You can use RGB cables with the GunCon. PS1 GunCon uses csync for additional precision. Some Scart cables have the yellow red white breakout embedded, for others you would need to tap it elsewhere. If you have an early PS1 with RCA out, you can use it, else:

The Sony adapter SCPH-1160

The Namco one

Or a generic Scart one

If you want to send RGB to two monitors, no need for an expensive matrix, a simple splitter will do. This with or without a switch will do. Just plug the male end to the output of your Scart switch box. (no matter what people say, don't use such a simplistic box as a switch box for multiple inputs, it may kill your consoles. Multi out only)

If you want to use your own cable, because you are sensitive to static, you can go with such a box. You'll need to push buttons with this one though, no dual screen.

 

[Beer Monkey]

You can disable AmaRec's deinterlacing in, iirc, the 3rd menu from the left in the config screen. it ruins anything that's already progressive.

Yeah, I have. It's actually pretty great, almost perfect now. I'm thinking it repeats a frame maybe every eight seconds apart or so, which probably has to do with my video card not outputting at the exact same frequency or something. NTSC is what, like 59.94 fields per second, I'm not sure what my video driver is outputting when I choose "59" instead of 60. Or maybe it's something else.

Either way, it's pretty good and the vertical axis is PERFECT, which is what I'd expect because the capture device has to sync to it. The horizontal axis is doing some scaling/averaging, but that's to be expected given that every console has various timings for resolution on the horizontal, various modes per console etc. So I don't know if there's too much to be done, and if so it would have to be tweaked regularly depending on the system and game.

Here's an example from the checkerboard image (I zoomed WAY in to illustrate). Note that there is no averaging from scanline to scanline, but there is definitely some sampling error along the X axis.

Horizontal resampling issues not withstanding, it's crazy how much screen grabs and lossless video look like emulator screenshots if you don't zoom in.

 

[NormalFish]

Could try forcing a specific aspect ratio. That might solve the issue.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Could try forcing a specific aspect ratio. That might solve the issue.

I've tried 3:2, 5:4 in addition to 4:3. Really looking for a way to force an exact number of samples per line. Thought maybe forcing the custom H.ACTIVE values might do it but I'm not getting it yet. I tried 512 aka 256 times two but that wouldn't account for the horizontal blanking.