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[Mega]

I calibrated the black levels on my monitors using the pluge pattern in 240p Suite. While they all do show what any of us would consider a true non-gray black, none of them are the 100% pure inky black of a completely dark room. There's always some amount of glow. Sometimes I won't notice I left a monitor on until after I start getting ready for bed and turn off all the lights in my place. That's when I see the faint glow.

I can lower brightness, contrast or RGB levels to a point that the screens are completely black, indistinguishable from being turned off, but as mentioned, you will begin to crush levels at the low end and lose detail in dark/shadow areas... if not a downright overall dark picture. CRTs have amazing contrast beyond any LCDs, but they're not the pinnacle. OLEDs already exceed them at presenting richer blacks, demonstrating that there was room for improvement and CRTs aren't perfect in this regard.

My Nexus 6P has a AMOLED panel. If I display a black wallpaper and turn off all the lights in a windowless room, the phone convincingly blends in with the pitch-black environment. I can stare at a black picture to look at my reflection and turning the screen on and off shows no difference in said reflection. I can't say the same for any CRT I own unless I darken the tube to unnaturally low brightness/contrast. My plasma also has awesome blacks, but still not pure black in a very dark room.

Actually, my BVM under normal lighting has a grayish screen when it's off. Turning it on causes the screen to go black. Doesn't that mean something is being emitted to make this possible?

 

[Khaz]

Actually, my BVM under normal lighting has a grayish screen when it's off. Turning it on causes the screen to go black. Doesn't that mean something is being emitted to make this possible?

CRTs are emitting dark energy confirmed.

 

[Peltz]

CRTs are emitting dark energy confirmed.

Nah they're just sucking up light like black holes in outer space.

 

[Grief.exe]

Opened up my SNES and found out it wasn't a 1chip.

Sadness.

 

[New002]

Opened up my SNES and found out it wasn't a 1chip.

Sadness.

Awwwwww man. I just learned about the various revisions yesterday and opened mine up. I have the first run from 1990. Apparently it has the best sound of the bunch but I was hoping for a 1chip.

Supposedly all the Donkey Kong super set systems are a 1chip. That made me sad since that's the set I owned growing up, but it's long gone.

 

[Zelkian]

Does anyone know of a guide online somewhere to calibrate a BVM-20F1U? I've had one for a while, but never really calibrated it so I thought I'd give it a try now. I downloaded the manual for it to see what each setting does and I'm lost. The descriptions in the manual for what each setting changes doesn't really explain what change I'll see on screen nor could I see what some settings where changing.

So, I was hoping there was a guide out there somewhere showing what settings I should look for to fix some imperfections I'm seeing. For example, the left side of the screen has a blue bleed from white images.

I do have the 240p suite to work with.

 

[Grief.exe]

Awwwwww man. I just learned about the various revisions yesterday and opened mine up. I have the first run from 1990. Apparently it has the best sound of the bunch but I was hoping for a 1chip.

Supposedly all the Donkey Kong super set systems are a 1chip. That made me sad since that's the set I owned growing up, but it's long gone.

I've got a couple emails out on Craigslist to see if I can win that lottery, then turn around and sell my current SNES to at least break even.

Otherwise, there's always the more expensive SNES Jr option through eBay then doing the separate mod.

 

[Khaz]

So, I was hoping there was a guide out there somewhere showing what settings I should look for to fix some imperfections I'm seeing. For example, the left side of the screen has a blue bleed from white images.

It may be magnetic interference. Do you have speakers or another CRT or anything with magnets close to it, or even a big lump of metal? Has it been moved recently? You may want to degauss it too.

 

[Mega]

CRTs are emitting dark energy confirmed.

Considering dark energy is everywhere, maybe they are!

Does anyone know of a guide online somewhere to calibrate a BVM-20F1U? I've had one for a while, but never really calibrated it so I thought I'd give it a try now. I downloaded the manual for it to see what each setting does and I'm lost. The descriptions in the manual for what each setting changes doesn't really explain what change I'll see on screen nor could I see what some settings where changing.

So, I was hoping there was a guide out there somewhere showing what settings I should look for to fix some imperfections I'm seeing. For example, the left side of the screen has a blue bleed from white images.

I do have the 240p suite to work with.

Can you post a clear picture of the white screen with the blue bleed? It may be poor convergence or purity. Adjusting R-G-B values and tweaks to brightness and contrast in the regular menus while using 240p Suite and testing against a few familiar games is all you need. Don't delve into the service menu of a BVM. It's insanity.

 

[Rich!]

wait one minute

I just remembered a mate of mine from school works for a production company in Bristol. Gonna pester him for a bvm, brb

but really, this is my only chance to get one without spending £400 (insane)

 

[dubc35]

wait one minute

I just remembered a mate of mine from school works for a production company in Bristol. Gonna pester him for a bvm, brb

but really, this is my only chance to get one without spending £400 (insane)

I thought you had a nice PVM already? (I know BVM>PVM but still).

In PVM news, tracking says my PVM will be delivered today! ...but I don't have my scart-bnc cable yet.

 

[Rich!]

I thought you had a nice PVM already? (I know BVM>PVM but still).

In PVM news, tracking says my PVM will be delivered today! ...but I don't have my scart-bnc cable yet.

My JVC is fantastic - but it has a scratch on the screen and I'm a perfectionist.

and in terms of lines, the JVC I own has 750 lines. It's basically a BVM in terms of resolution, is it not? It's higher than a standard PVM anyway.

 

[dubc35]

My JVC is fantastic - but it has a scratch on the screen and I'm a perfectionist.

and in terms of lines, the JVC I own has 750 lines. It's basically a BVM in terms of resolution, is it not? It's higher than a standard PVM anyway.

Ah, understandable I guess. We're all probably in a state "what can I improve?"

I'm not sure on lines, I think mine in route has 450 while a similar model has 600 (both PVMs). I'm still very noobish when it comes to B/PVM's though.

[edit] It was just delivered!!! I'm sure I can leave work now, right? I deem it an acceptable reason to leave early!!

 

[Rich!]

Ah, understandable I guess. We're all probably in a state "what can I improve?"

I'm not sure on lines, I think mine in route has 450 while a similar model has 600 (both PVMs). I'm still very noobish when it comes to B/PVM's though.

450 is pretty low...I'm guessing you're not in the UK as it would be worthless to our production industry (PAL video is 576 lines)

 

[dubc35]

450 is pretty low...I'm guessing you're not in the UK as it would be worthless to our production industry (PAL video is 576 lines)

Yep, US. One of the ones Mega posted a couple pages back. The price was right for what I was willing to spend.

I'm trying to temper my expectations since I haven't seen it in person. Hopefully it isn't in pieces inside the box. I guess there would probably be a decent pop if it did break the vacuum.

soon...

D'oh! No power cord. On mobile now but I saw a third party selling pvm power cables on Amazon. Anyone purchase an aftermarket AC cord? Or know where to buy official ones?

Would a PS3 power cable work? Og 60gb bc fatty

 

[Mega]

^450 TVL lines refers to the horizontal resolution. 576 lines refers to the vertical resolution, the number of scanlines. That PVM has a max of 480i at 60hz or 576i at 50hz refresh, same on all 15KHz CRTs. TVL varies a lot more from one CRT to the next. 450 TVL is more than enough to resolve all the detail in nearly any SD retro game (up to Wii I guess). The picture may look a little softer and you won't get thin scan lines with thick black lines in between, but that doesn't mean worse. Only different.

Rich, I told you before... you're probably going to end up disappointed in the marginal or non-existent "improvement" between a smaller and like-new 750TVL monitor and a potentially worn-out 900-line BVM. An aging monitor has less ability to focus (and duller colors, lower brightness) and will appear no better than a monitor with lesser specs on paper. My 600-line 14" PVM is a lot sharper than my old 800-line 20" PVM that I sold off. And I don't see a difference at all between my 800-line 17" JVC and 900-line 20" BVM, even looking at tack-sharp magnified images.

There's no such thing as a PVM power cable. Any computer power cable that plugs into your local power outlet will work.

I thought you had a nice PVM already? (I know BVM>PVM but still).

In PVM news, tracking says my PVM will be delivered today! ...but I don't have my scart-bnc cable yet.

Make due with what you have on hand. First PVM I was playing Wii VC with Component (I'm assuming you got the pack of RCA-BNC adapters). Then I got Famicom, Genesis and SNES and was playing them over Composite until all my RGB stuff came in a couple weeks later.

 

[dubc35]

^ Yep, I'm still a complete noob to this. Thank you for the clarification.

I also realized the power cord question was stupid. I turned it on and it works but won't be able to test anything out until later tonight.

And yes, I will use what I have and enjoy it! SNES via S-Video will be the first. I wasn't complaining or anything; just can't wait to experience what a lot of the users in here have been!

Lastly, thank you again for making me aware of the listing! I would not have it without you!

 

[NormalFish]

Yet another excuse to shill for phonedork's videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffiR4E1id-8

Skip to 6:45 for the relevant bit.

 

[Khaz]

450 is pretty low...I'm guessing you're not in the UK as it would be worthless to our production industry (PAL video is 576 lines)

Lines and TV lines always refer to the horizontal maximum resolution*. the vertical resolution is a product of the refresh rate, 60Hz being enough time to scan the screen horizontally 480 times, while 50Hz allows for 576 passes of the beam at a 15kHz scan rate. It's never useful to specify the number of scan lines that can be displayed for a display with a fixed scan rate.

* you can still display higher definition pictures, but neighbour pixels won't be resolved, in an optical sense, they won't be distinct from each other and will blur together.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Phonedork has misinformation in that video as usual. Great production, though.

 

[NormalFish]

Phonedork has misinformation in that video as usual. Great production, though.

would be helpful if you'd outline which parts are inaccurate

 

[Beer Monkey]

would be helpful if you'd outline which parts are inaccurate

I haven't gone through the whole thing. Of course there's the usual scanline business, but whatever, gamers have changed the whole definition of what a scanline is, for better or worse.

I made it through to where he said NTSC is 720x480. Nope. NTSC did not have a defined horizontal resolution, period. ATSC standard def has 704x480 and 640x480, though.

I quit subscribing to his vids after he compared RGB to component without calibrating. He needs to have somebody fact check him. Great production values, but he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. That's mainly annoying because other people start spouting what he says as truth.

 

[NormalFish]

I haven't gone through the whole thing. Of course there's the usual scanline business, but whatever, gamers have changed the whole definition of what a scanline is, for better or worse.

I made it through to where he said NTSC is 720x480. Nope. NTSC did not have a defined horizontal resolution, period. ATSC standard def has 704x480 and 640x480, though.

I quit subscribing to his vids after he compared RGB to component without calibrating. He needs to have somebody fact check him. Great production values, but he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. That's mainly annoying because other people start spouting what he says as truth.

Frankly it sounds like you think his videos are targeted at a demographic they're not. His videos are obviously for the layman. "Scanlines" to the layman is used as he used it.

NTSC may not have a set, definite, horizontal resolution but the standard is 720x480 nonetheless. You're being pedantic. If you have issue with that, you can take it up with those far more knowledgable than I on shmups or whatever other venue that refers to 720x480 as NTSC standard like this article https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_304-rec601_wood.pdf (discussed on page 6)

The calibration issue is fair enough, but his videos are quite well researched. It's not infrequent that something is lost in translation from technical jargon to normal-personese, but that's the nature of things.

.

Yeah, this is more reasonable. Calibration issues are a concern I share. The model number he corrected (even has a comment about it in the description).

I think he skips over a lot of information because he's already typically covering a rather large breadth of topics, and I imagine he likes to stay a tad more focused. I certainly wouldn't mind him going on and on about every little thing, though.

 

[Mega]

I generally like his videos but off the top of my head, his XM29 looks poorly calibrated and on that basis he declares the BVM as superior. He does this several times with RGB v. Component comparisons (in two other videos I believe).

If you wanna be nitpicky, he refers to the blank lines as scanlines repeatedly. I've done that myself occasionally but it would be nice if he would make a distinction. Or at least bring it up to educate viewers but say he'd continue referring to the empty space as scanlines out of personal preference.

An error, not misinformation, but he also called it the A24F1U when it's a D24F1U. Said it before, but there's a huge difference between the two and I wouldn't be surprised if a few people went out and got A24s going by his video and got burned trying to hunt down a non-standard-equipment $400 RGB input card that's impossible to find.

He also doesn't do a good job of clarifying why the D24 maintains 1000TVL sharpness at 16:9 while a 20" 4:3 BVM in 16:9 mode does not... it's because a 4:3 BVM letterboxes in 16:9 mode and only uses the center two-thirds of the screen. TVL is determined by measuring the lines in a centered circle that's the height of the monitor. It's a moot point to even bring up... even with the drop in TVL, 480p, 1080i and 720p games would be fully resolved on a D20F1U. The way he explains it seems like he thinks a 4:3 monitor will have a drop in quality when presenting HD/widescreen games.

He says he "normally hates" anamorphic widescreen and doesn't explain why. My guess is he thinks it's fake widescreen... a native 4:3 image forced to 16:9... as most people commonly believe. It just means a wide image (720px for example) is rendered and then squashed into 640px, then your TV or playback device unsquashes it to your output's widescreen mode. It's still a real widescreen image with proper proportions. This wasn't clear to me until I was doing my Klonoa tests.

I dunno if it's this video or another, but he has a mix-up regarding composite sync, believing it to be different than pure/raw sync, when they're actually the same thing. Pretty sure he was confused with composite video sync.

Overall like his videos a lot but they do contain some odd quirks here and there.

 

[sir_kevith]

It's likely the other way around. If you're getting a truly black screen from a consumer CRT, you're probably out of calibration an are crushing some black detail.

I should test the XM 29 for it, but every other CRT I've seen glows in a dark room with a black screen even calibrated.

I replaced the tube in a K7000 arcade monitor with a newer Sharp tube manufactured in the 2000s. That one can actually get very close to black but it is way more tinted than the old tube made in the 80s or 90s. I actually had to swap out the tinted safety glass for clear glass on my arcade machine because the new tube made it redundant.

 

[televator]

I kind of understand what dork is getting at with "dynamic color output", but I still don't think it translates to what he is actually getting in his comparisons between RGB and component.

I also find it odd that he doesn't mention the actual known issues with sub sampling filters and how that translates to actual perceivable artifacts in his games. Then again perhaps the artifacts don't manifest in analog tech as they do with digital... I haven't been able to find a concrete answer to that myself.

He also sorta admitted that he didn't calibrate by saying "you could get a better white balance from component..." Okay... so how about you try it then? It was obvious that he had some tint issues with his whites. He had a very "cool" picture in his component screens which in the MVC2 comparison would obviously sap the warm color depth that was better reproduced in the RGB capture.

I think 'dork needs a second opinion in his productions. Someone who can really keep him under stricter testing methods.

 

[NormalFish]

as far as ps2 component vs RGB, component's worse for reasons other than color accuracy. You'll get a bit more fuzz in general (both noise and an ever so slightly softer picture).

I've also experienced some color issues, but I don't have the vocabulary to describe them. Some colors get "crushed", particularly highly saturated colors. It's possible it's a framemeister issue, however.

 

[televator]

as far as ps2 component vs RGB, component's worse for reasons other than color accuracy. You'll get a bit more fuzz in general (both noise and an ever so slightly softer picture).

From what I tested and read in depth. The "fuzz" in PS2 component I feel comfortable in attributing it largely to the method of sub sampling used. Much like the ringing found in Nintendo hardware. That said, it does not cause the discrepancy that 'dork alleges.

 

[Mega]

I believe it that there are differences. The CRT itself sort of masks/dampens some of those differences so they shouldn't be as pronounced as raw capture.

The thing is that in his last video he demonstrated a huge difference between RGB and Component that was entirely his fault. It was glaring ignorance.

 

[NormalFish]

from what I tested and read in depth. The "fuzz" in PS2 component I feel comfortable in attributing it largely to the method of sub sampling used. That said, it does not cause the discrepancy that 'dork alleges.

In the video he mentions that RGB is "a tad sharper" and "there's less flickering" which, I assume, refers to the softness and noise of component respectively that I mentioned.

Again, the color differential I'm perfectly happy to concede.

 

[televator]

In the video he mentions that RGB is "a tad sharper" and "there's less flickering" which, I assume, refers to the softness and noise of component respectively that I mentioned.

Again, the color differential I'm perfectly happy to concede.

Ah, I see. I just find it a tad annoying that he shows those wildly different captures. It's... well... it's misinformation.

I mean, I agree. RGB is better than component. Component does have loss... but none of it manifests to the degree he portrays it - save for what you pointed out/interpreted.

 

[NormalFish]

Ah, I see. I just find it a tad annoying that he shows those wildly different captures. It's... well... it's misinformation.

I mean, I agree. RGB is better than component. Component does have loss... but none of it manifests to the degree he portrays it - save for what you pointed out/interpreted.

tbh after rewatching it a few times, while the video itself (as in, the actual visual) is certainly misleading, what he says is pretty accurate.

Speaking as someone who spent far too much time and money trying to weigh the pros and cons of ps2 component/RGB

 

[Zelkian]

It may be magnetic interference. Do you have speakers or another CRT or anything with magnets close to it, or even a big lump of metal? Has it been moved recently? You may want to degauss it too.

Considering dark energy is everywhere, maybe they are!



Can you post a clear picture of the white screen with the blue bleed? It may be poor convergence or purity. Adjusting R-G-B values and tweaks to brightness and contrast in the regular menus while using 240p Suite and testing against a few familiar games is all you need. Don't delve into the service menu of a BVM. It's insanity.

No speakers or anything metallic right next to it, unless you count the stand above it that's holding the component switch on top. Here's a picture of my setup though:

Here's a picture of the bleed on the left side from the 240p bleed test screen:
(It's just the blue and white it's happening on)

Finally, Sonic & Knuckles for fun:

 

[Beer Monkey]

I mean, I agree. RGB is better than component. Component does have loss... but none of it manifests to the degree he portrays it - save for what you pointed out/interpreted.

The end result of this nonsense is I've now encountered people stressed about some perceived need to convert their Wii to RGB. It's not going to make a qualitative difference to do that. On top of it all, I'm talking about gamers that are really just using the Wii for Virtual Console emulation of 8 and 16 bit games at like 256x240.

Misinformation sucks. If you have a lot of followers/subscribers, you have an obligation to disseminate truthful info.

 

[televator]

The end result of this nonsense is I've now encountered people stressed about some perceived need to convert their Wii to RGB. It's not going to make a qualitative difference to do that. On top of it all, I'm talking about gamers that are really just using the Wii for Virtual Console emulation of 8 and 16 bit games at like 256x240.

Misinformation sucks. If you have a lot of followers/subscribers, you have an obligation to disseminate truthful info.

Wait... people are trying... convert the Wii to RGB...

I-if only they knew... but would they even understand? I just... lol

 

[Madao]

we're confused quite often with some of this stuff so it's no wonder casual people would be lost easily.

 

[televator]

They really need to have an article up on the RGB sites that details subsampling. What it does and how it relates to RGB.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Wait... people are trying... convert the Wii to RGB...

You can change a softmodded NTSC Wii to output RGB using software, no hardware required.

And hey, they saw on YouTube that RGB is inferior to component, so this means they'll get a better picture.

I'm not even kidding.

NTSC may not have a set, definite, horizontal resolution but the standard is 720x480 nonetheless. You're being pedantic.

Color NTSC was defined in 1953 and there was nothing digital about it. Scanline count was defined, it's how many times you trace the beam each field/frame. "Resolution" within a scanline was not.

 

[televator]

You can change a softmodded NTSC Wii to output RGB using software, no hardware required.

And hey, they saw on YouTube that RGB is inferior to component, so this means they'll get a better picture.

I'm not even kidding.

Oh, right. That process has even brought up here before. Yeah, I had to correct some people on what the Wii actually does internally that completely nullifies whatever advantage Wii's RGB output would have.

 

[Peagles]

The only advantage is that it plugs into my SCART switches, lol.

 

[eEK!]

I'll stick up for Phonedork and say that it is difficult to find information on CRTs and related AV formats on the internet.

Also I'd say he makes a lot of effort to keep his videos entertaining and understandable, which is rare in any hobbyist group [glares at most of the thread, tries to storm out of the room, trips over mess of scart cables and is crushed by giant CRT recommended by Phonedork... Curse you Phonedork!!!!]

It is right though that he usually gets carried away with excitement and isn't very logical (i.e. CRTs greater than 17 inches are not practical or even preferable for a lot of circumstances and should only be recommended with various of caveats). That said he wouldn't make these videos if he wasn't excited about the topic. Wat You Gonna Do?

tldr: just correct him in the comments and hope for the best.

 

[Khaz]

CRTs greater than 17 inches are not practical or even preferable for a lot of circumstances and should only be recommended with various of caveats

Uh, 17" is cool if you sit right next to your screen. But if you want to get comfy, bigger sizes are better.

 

[dubc35]

Hmm, ok still a noob here. I only had about 10 minutes last night to test out the PVM with SNES via S-Video. I need to do some research online more but thought I would post in here too. Hopefully my questions will help others as well. My Scart-BNC breakout cable is not here yet so this is the only setup I can currently test.

Here is what it looks like:

I tried the auto screen adjust via the Chroma setup menu. Page 9 in the manual, number 7 gives a brief description of it.

When I select auto adjust the screen 'fixes' itself while saying "progress" on the bottom left as it adjusts. However when it finishes it says "Adjust Error" and reverts back to the image above. Here is a video of it going through the process. It looks absolutely amazing when it centers!

And the end "Adjust Error" notification:

Sony PVM-1351Q, SNES connected via S-Video (aftermarket) to Line C. The PVM has mono sound so only one audio channel connected. No Ext Sync so that button doesn't help. I see HV delay selector on page 5 of the manual. I did not try that last night.

Am I looking at opening it and adjusting pots? I would prefer to avoid that if possible.

edit, Ok I have the service manual, will need some time to go through it.

 

[Grief.exe]

Does anyone have experience with installing GC Video HDMI mod or SNES RGB mod? I think I'm going to take both on and want to get some tips if possible.

 

[Rich!]

Does anyone have experience with installing GC Video HDMI mod or SNES RGB mod? I think I'm going to take both on and want to get some tips if possible.

Yep. I modified my SNES mini.

Buy the retrorgb amp. It makes installation an absolute breeze. Took me no more than ten minutes.

http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html

Also make sure you use three resistors as explained in that guide otherwise the image will be far too bright.

 

[Mega]

They really need to have an article up on the RGB sites that details subsampling. What it does and how it relates to RGB.

Write one up and send it to the RetroRGB guy. He seems good about updating his site with new and useful information.

Here's a picture of the bleed on the left side from the 240p bleed test screen:
(It's just the blue and white it's happening on)

Have you played with the convergence controls? That looks like horizontal convergence is not dialed in. So you have the blue misaligned to the left and it looks like a bit of red to the right.

 

[Grief.exe]

Yep. I modified my SNES mini.

Buy the retrorgb amp. It makes installation an absolute breeze. Took me no more than ten minutes.

http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html

Also make sure you use three resistors as explained in that guide otherwise the image will be far too bright.

Yep, that's who I was looking at. Seems like a fun, and educational, project.

Retro RGB recommends waiting to install the resistors as I can adjust the brightness on my TV to compensate. If it's truly bothersome I can always come back later.

So I need to solder in the csync wire to force the Snes Mini to output Csync, then get a Csync SCART cable as well.

 

[Rich!]

Well it's up to you, but without the resistors my snes overpowered everything else. With them, it's equal to my N64, Wii and Saturn.

 

[Zelkian]

Have you played with the convergence controls? That looks like horizontal convergence is not dialed in. So you have the blue misaligned to the left and it looks like a bit of red to the right.

Not really because the problem I ran into was that there are so many different options to change and I couldn't get a sense of what they were changing. If you say its the horizontal convergence though, I can focus on that at least. So, thanks for that.

Here's one page from the manual with some of the convergence options:

You can see that is says it effects different areas of the screen, but again, I just wasn't sure how it was changing it. I don't have a lot of experience with these more advanced settings.

When I get a chance to mess with the settings I'll let you know how it went.

 

[oneida]

any tips on taking pictures of a CRT screen?