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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Rich!

Member
Oh I see! Yes, I was busy playing N64 at home, playing Pokémon on Gameboy, getting into Pokémon TCG, and drawing in class instead of studying and doing my math homework. Very productive! :p

ha, me and my mates spent our time playing Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64! Hell, even when we got to sixth form we used to book the theatre out under the premise of doing video production work and instead played Mario Kart and Smash Bros 64 on the full size theatre screen via the projector

good good times
 

televator

Member
Forget about "Google" while learning real stuff.


You only need complex numbers (high-school maths) for the most part.

An Analog RC Lowpass Filter
Code:
 -*--- R ---*--*
  |         |   
  u0        C  u1
  |         |   
 -*---------*--*

setup: R = 1MOhm, C = (1/2*Pi)µF ~ 0.159µF, u0 = 1V input, u1 output

Do the following
(a) compute the impedance Z(w) of the RC lowpass filter over all frequencies
(b) plot the magnitude and phase of the impedance over the range [0,10Hz]
(c) compute the -3db cutoff frequency f0 in Hz from (a)
(d) compute (or read off) the magnitude and phase at f0

Hints:
(a)
use the (complex) voltage divider rule, i.e. Z := U1/U0 = R1/(R1+R0)
(b)
plot mag(w) := |Z(w)| and phase(w) := arg(Z(w))
(c)
for what w0 (w0 := 2*Pi*f0) does U1 = U0/sqrt(2) hold? (set U0 = 1)
(d)
plug w0 into mag(w) and phase(w)

If you can do all this, then do a high-pass filter. Same logic. Go from here.

Bruh... I live in America. Higher ed is for the rich or for those looking to be in debt up to their eyebals for a decade or two... And I'm already in debt. I literally don't even know what some of those symbols mean. lol

Regardless, I would like to take some community college in all seriousness, but first I have to get a new job... One thing at a time.

I did used to work as a CAD drafter for years, but same as Madao, I fucking hated that career. What maths I did have in my head have long since faded.

Based the two pictures I took and yours, my WiiU@480p pic looks similar to your 1080p pic, maybe a little better or worse. But your 1080 pic looks much better than my awful 1080p image.

Did you take your pics after starting the game? I didn't see bad distortion in that battery menu until after I booted into a game. I should retry it with Skyward Sword too if that's what you're using. Maybe not all games scale equally as bad?

I did start the game. I was in the title screen. One thing I'll say that I don't think people have mentioned about the Wii menu is that the Wii menu, and that includes the vWii menu, has alway looked especially awful in my perception. Like something about it makes it looks far worse than anything I've seen while actually in game. It's strange.
 

dubc35

Member
Bruh... I live in America. Higher ed is for the rich or for those looking to be in debt up to their eyebals for a decade or two... And I'm already in debt. I literally don't even know what some of those symbols mean. lol

Regardless, I would like to take some community college in all seriousness, but first I have to get a new job... One thing at a time.

I did used to work as a CAD drafter for years, but same as Madao, I fucking hated that career. What maths I did have in my head have long since faded.

I was watching Kevtris disassemble a PVM yesterday on youtube. In the comments someone asked him how/where he learned all his stuff. He said he was self taught; no college. College, or lack of, shouldn't be an excuse. :)
 

televator

Member
I was watching Kevtris disassemble a PVM yesterday on youtube. In the comments someone asked him how/where he learned all his stuff. He said he was self taught; no college. College, or lack of, shouldn't be an excuse. :)

Or... People learn differently. I'm a very "conceptual" person. I need concepts, which means someone needs to explain how things work and why they work the way they do. Which also means maths by themselves are not always a good way for me to understand. I mean, I've learned a lot of things by myself over the years but I can only go so far before some things become more esoteric.

Only reason I learned how an internal combustion engine works and even some of the math behind it is because things are far more easier to see at a macro scale IRL and in my head. In contrast, I've been at with electronics for even longer than cars and I don't have anywhere near the same grasp with them.
 

dubc35

Member
Or... People learn differently. I'm a very "conceptual" person. I need concepts, which means someone needs to explain how things work and why they work the way they do. Which also means maths by themselves are not always a good way for me to understand. I mean, I've learned a lot of things by myself over the years but I can only go so far before some things become more esoteric.

Only reason I learned how an internal combustion engine works and even some of the math behind it is because things are far more easier to see at a macro scale IRL and in my head.

Yeah I know people learn differently. I kind of meant that in my post but it didn't come out that way, sorry.
 
I was watching Kevtris disassemble a PVM yesterday on youtube. In the comments someone asked him how/where he learned all his stuff. He said he was self taught; no college. College, or lack of, shouldn't be an excuse. :)

Yeah but he's been "self learning" about fpgas and computer/hardware engineering for damn near two decades. I've been teaching myself about hardware eng (from a software eng background but still) for a few years and already picked up a lot so yeah still impressive but not exactly unexpected. That much real experience beats book learnin' any day.
 
I was under the impression Kevtris was working in industrial engineering, too. Can't imagine he didn't have some sort of experience on his way there.
 
I was under the impression Kevtris was working in industrial engineering, too. Can't imagine he didn't have some sort of experience on his way there.

Hobby experience is experience. If someone came into an interview at my work and said they'd be working on complicated open source software projects for 10 years but never worked in a real software engineering job we'd hire them for sure.
 
Hobby experience is experience. If someone came into an interview at my work and said they'd be working on complicated open source software projects for 10 years but never worked in a real software engineering job we'd hire them for sure.

oh yeah, sure. I just mean that I imagine he's worked on projects outside of home that have relevant applications to working with these electronics
Most engineers I've worked (and I've worked with a lot) almost always have hobbies outside of the scope of their field. An engineering mind is much more enabled to take on other tasks IMO.
yup. There's a certain facet of the mind that really enables one to do such things.
 

televator

Member
Most engineers I've worked (and I've worked with a lot) almost always have hobbies outside of the scope of their field. An engineering mind is much more enabled to take on other tasks IMO.
 

dubc35

Member
I was under the impression Kevtris was working in industrial engineering, too. Can't imagine he didn't have some sort of experience on his way there.

What he is doing is nowhere close to what Industrial Engineers generally do. I am an Industrial Engineer. IE is more about processes (think theory of constraints) and has lately moved into more Systems Engineering (Verification/Validation). The core of IE work has historically been focused in manufacturing (which is not around in the US much anymore).

Most engineers I've worked (and I've worked with a lot) almost always have hobbies outside of the scope of their field. An engineering mind is much more enabled to take on other tasks IMO.
Very true. It's why I am here tinkering around with old consoles, lol. I also like working on my car a lot. I sometimes think I would rather be a mechanic...then I spend a couple days doing hard work and it changes my mind back.
 
What he is doing is nowhere close to what Industrial Engineers generally do. I am an Industrial Engineer. IE is more about processes (think theory of constraints) and has lately moved into more Systems Engineering (Verification/Validation). The core of IE work has historically been focused in manufacturing (which is not around in the US much anymore).


Very true.

tbh that's what I thought his work was in. What is he actually doing?
The FPGA stuff? I would classify that more as Electrical Engineering and/or Computer Science and Engineering.

IE work, lets take Hi-def NES for example, would be what's the best way to take the detail parts and assemble/install them while minimizing waste (wasted time, effort, parts, movement, etc).

That said, I am speaking from the US education viewpoint. It may mean different things elsewhere. [edit] The Industrial part of IE is a common misunderstanding as well. It's origin is in relation to the Industrial Revolution.

edit2, I guess Electronic Engineering (subset of Electrical) would describe his work: (excuse my wiki link but I think it fits)
I meant professionally, not his work on CRTs/Console mods/etc.
 

dubc35

Member
tbh that's what I thought his work was in. What is he actually doing?

The FPGA stuff? I would classify that more as Electrical Engineering and/or Computer Science and Engineering.

IE work, lets take Hi-def NES for example, would be what's the best way to take the detail parts and assemble/install them while minimizing waste (wasted time, effort, parts, movement, etc).

That said, I am speaking from the US education viewpoint. It may mean different things elsewhere. [edit] The Industrial part of IE is a common misunderstanding as well. It's origin is in relation to the Industrial Revolution.

edit2, I guess Electronic Engineering (subset of Electrical) would describe his work: (excuse my wiki link but I think it fits)
Electronics engineering, or electronic engineering, is an engineering discipline which utilizes non-linear and active electrical components (such as semiconductor devices, especially transistors, diodes and integrated circuits) to design electronic circuits, devices, Microprocessors/Microcontrollers and systems including VHDL Modelling for Programmable logic devices and FPGAs. The discipline typically also designs passive electrical components, usually based on printed circuit boards.


------------

Back on topic, for PVM owners do most, all, none(?) of you use bnc terminations? The manual states it is an automatic termination unless something is connected to the out port (generally indicated by a resistor symbol by the port).
 

dubc35

Member
PVMs have auto termination, BVMs do not and require 75 ohm BNC terminators.
Ok thanks. I may have misheard the my life in gaming pvm episode. I thought I heard them say some PVMs require them, and then I saw video of them attaching a terminator to a port with the resistor symbol. It contradicted the manual so that's why I was asking. I'll have to go watch that part again.
 

Gyrian

Member
Guys, what's your advice for someone who's invested in an XRGBmini & JP21 RGB ecosystem but would also like to give back some life to an old Samsung CRT that can handle component beautifully? The research I've done here points to grabbing a CSY-2100 or clone, and I suppose a JP21 to euroSCART cable. I'm willing to go through more hassle upfront to make this easier to use regularly. Wonder how tough it'd be to mod one of those boxes to self-power and take the JP21 pinout?
 

Madao

Member
^ Am still confused whether it's math or maths. xD Anyone?!


What you do now and what you want to do in the, well, future?

right now i get by with youtube videos in my channel.

long term i have no idea. the jobs in my country suck and there's nothing i like. i guess i'll just have to get some generic job eventually if i don't find anything i like doing that has good pay here (leaving the country is not an option).
 

dubc35

Member
Does anyone have any idea of what kind of price the OSSC will run for here in the UK?

This is all I have seen on price however it appears to be speculation.

As of early 2016 the Framemeister is rougly 330 EUR when bought directly from Japan (including taxes when bought from Solaris JP). The price of the OSSC isn't set in stone yet, but assembled units should remain under 200 EUR all things considered.

edit, on the main page this is listed as well:
Markus Hiienkari's OSSC (about 100-120 EUR as a DIY-kit, 180-200 EUR assembled) *added 2016*
 

missile

Member
Bruh... I live in America. Higher ed is for the rich or for those looking to be in debt up to their eyebals for a decade or two... And I'm already in debt. I literally don't even know what some of those symbols mean. lol

Regardless, I would like to take some community college in all seriousness, but first I have to get a new job... One thing at a time.

I did used to work as a CAD drafter for years, but same as Madao, I fucking hated that career. What maths I did have in my head have long since faded. ...
That's odd. You seem so interested. All the best finding a better job!


right now i get by with youtube videos in my channel.

long term i have no idea. the jobs in my country suck and there's nothing i like. i guess i'll just have to get some generic job eventually if i don't find anything i like doing that has good pay here (leaving the country is not an option).
I hope you will find something really good! Good luck, man!


--

Becoming good at something needs decades.
Better start today!
 
damn, that would be half the price of a framemeister.

Sounds good.

while they're both very good upscalers, you might do some research before committing to one or the other. They are basically at opposite ends of the upscaler spectrum as far as functionality.
 

Rich!

Member
while they're both very good upscalers, you might do some research before committing to one or the other. They are basically at opposite ends of the upscaler spectrum as far as functionality.

Well, I used to have a framemeister.

When the time comes to either get one or the other, I'd go for one that displays shit with the least amount of lag
 
Well, I used to have a framemeister.

When the time comes to either get one or the other, I'd go for one that displays shit with the least amount of lag

issue is you might display nothing with the least amount of lag. There are lots of compatibility quirks
 

Mega

Banned
I did start the game. I was in the title screen. One thing I'll say that I don't think people have mentioned about the Wii menu is that the Wii menu, and that includes the vWii menu, has alway looked especially awful in my perception. Like something about it makes it looks far worse than anything I've seen while actually in game. It's strange.

Do you have SSB Melee in Nintendont or Dolphin? Can you replicate this screenshot?

swmXf8F.jpg
 

televator

Member
That's odd. You seem so interested. All the best finding a better job!



I hope you will find something really good! Good luck, man!


--

Becoming good at something needs decades.
Better start today!

I am interested. The issue isn't for lack of interest or lack of effort on my part. It's just lack of skill and ability in the present. I'm incapable of learning complex maths on my own. Mathematics don't come naturally to me. I can become very good at maths, but only after very long and arduous study, practice, help by tutor, and professional teaching. Even then, conceptualizing how it applies to real world solutions is an abstract for me. It's not a straight forward application. I need to see physical correlation for it stick in my mind and not fade away.

In other words, I require a ton of hand holding. And that's just not something I'll have access to for a long while.

Do you have SSB Melee in Nintendont or Dolphin? Can you replicate this screenshot?

As a matter of fact, I do. I'll get on it. I'm assuming you turned the smoothing filter off?
 

Tiktaalik

Member
If I have a Framemeister and I'd like to hook up a Playstation to it, what type of SCART cable should I use? There's a paragraph on retroRGB that talks about this but I'm not 100% sure I'm interpreting it right, so I thought I'd ask here just to make sure I don't order the wrong thing.

PlayStation 1:
Recommended solution: RGB Cable (above), sync-on-luma

PS1 consoles all output 240p, so using an RGB cable will get you the best picture. I suggest using luma as sync to reduce interference found in cables that use composite video as sync. Either way, if your switch requires csync, you'll either need to add a sync stripper to the SCART cable, or order a cable with a sync stripper built-in. If just your display requires csync, then ordering the cable as-is and adding a sync stripper right before the display is the easiest option.

I'm not planning on plugging anything into a switch and rather I'd just be plugging systems directly into the framemeister. Based on the above I believe I should get the one with a built in stripper? https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-playstation-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead
 

missile

Member
I am interested. The issue isn't for lack of interest or lack of effort on my part. It's just lack of skill and ability in the present. I'm incapable of learning complex maths on my own. Mathematics don't come naturally to me. I can become very good at maths, but only after very long and arduous study, practice, help by tutor, and professional teaching. Even then, conceptualizing how it applies to real world solutions is an abstract for me. It's not a straight forward application. I need to see physical correlation for it stick in my mind and not fade away.

In other words, I require a ton of hand holding. And that's just not something I'll have access to for a long while. ...
Fair enough. Btw; Didn't meant you're lacking interest. Quite the contrary! ;)
 
If I have a Framemeister and I'd like to hook up a Playstation to it, what type of SCART cable should I use? There's a paragraph on retroRGB that talks about this but I'm not 100% sure I'm interpreting it right, so I thought I'd ask here just to make sure I don't order the wrong thing.



I'm not planning on plugging anything into a switch and rather I'd just be plugging systems directly into the framemeister. Based on the above I believe I should get the one with a built in stripper? https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-playstation-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead
You want a cable with Luma sync. And a euroscart to mini adapter if you don't have one.

No need for a stripper
 

Rich!

Member
I had an RGB sony trinitron CRT here I bought from gumtree for a fiver a while ago and i just sold on gumtree for £20. The guy who picked it up earlier only wanted it for time crisis

fucking quids in son
 

Mega

Banned
Thanks, Madao and Televator. I think it's safe to say this menu simply looks like crap and the letters are not uniform "on purpose," meaning it's not anything the console or display upscaling is screwing up.
 

missile

Member
RGB Phosphor Glow Simulation (work in progress)

l41Yy8lAc2gCNNND2.gif

normal

3oEjI0pTYZThWhTQys.gif

overbright

The scattering of the phosphors' light is computed in full 3d!
(no 2d processing done)


Edit: This happens if you let the dots let go. xD

lwCeVnc.gif


Showing that the glow is full 3d. Look at all the color bleeding!
 

Gyrian

Member
Guys, what's your advice for someone who's invested in an XRGBmini & JP21 RGB ecosystem but would also like to give back some life to an old Samsung CRT that can handle component beautifully? The research I've done here points to grabbing a CSY-2100 or clone, and I suppose a JP21 to euroSCART cable. I'm willing to go through more hassle upfront to make this easier to use regularly. Wonder how tough it'd be to mod one of those boxes to self-power and take the JP21 pinout?

Anyone? :(
 

Vespa

Member

I think that would work, your chain would be:

Console with a JP21 RGB scart out > converter cable > Euro RGB scart > Transcoder (CSY-2100) > Component > Samsung CRT

I have no idea how good that CSY is. Another option would be to transcode the XRGBmini output (HDMI/DVI?) to component and leave it in your chain.

Is this for 240p consoles?
 

Khaz

Member
Another option would be to transcode the XRGBmini output (HDMI/DVI?) to component and leave it in your chain.

No good would come out of that. You'd get all the cons of the upscaler without any of the pros. Keep it in parallel.
 
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