Support NeoGAF

[Drago]

I'm almost definitely going to be getting an XRGB mini sometime within the next few months and I've been spending an unhealthy amount of time looking into all of my options. I'm wondering if any of you could help me out re: Gamecube. I want to use it primarily to play GB/GBA games in 240p via GBi, alongside playing some other GC games, and it seems like my best bet besides paying $300+ for component cables (not happening) is using RGB from a PAL Gamecube w/ SD Media Launcher for less than a third of those cables alone. Also gives me an excuse to get one of those lovely pearl white units I've wanted for so long! Just have some questions before I commit to it if any of yall can answer them.

1) Will SD Media Launcher and Swiss give me the option to play any region game (almost entirely NTSC-U) with proper resolution and refresh rate on the PAL Cube? If so it would replace the Cube I have now which would be ace.

2) Is Gamecube RGB superior to S-Video on the whole? I'd imagine so but you never know, surprisingly I'm having a lot of trouble finding good comparisons online. I don't expect it to reach component video quality obviously but I'd be glad if it was better than S-Video.
(also while I'm here is it true that 480i content on PS2 looks better through RGB than through component?)

3) Sync on Luma is the recommended cable type for GC yes? I could use the same wire for both it and an RGB modded N64?

4) NTSC power cable, mem cards, controllers, GB player etc. will all work fine on the PAL unit right? Double checking here as I'm pretty sure the answer for all of these is yes.


Thanks all. I know GCVideo will be an option soon too but it'll be more expensive afaik and I don't think it'll be all that convenient if I primarily want to play GB games through a Framemeister.

 

[Madao]

RGB seems to be on par or better than Component if you're not using progressive so you shouldn't have problems in that area with a PAL GC.
i've heard NTSC games run fine on it but i'll let a PAL expert answer that one.
Component becomes important if you absolutely need to have progressive from a GC (it's better than Wii's Component out, making it the highest quality possible for GC games without doing emulation)

 

[Beer Monkey]

My test games are Gradius V and Contra: Shattered Soldier. I have the framemeister paired up with a Asus VG248QE which by itself feels damn near identical to a CRT in terms of responsiveness during both of those games. You can tell the difference instantly in Contra with the framemeister hooked up. It's one of those things where I'm used to the way these games feel and this is definitely not as crisp.

You're getting a frame and a half of lag from your monitor and a frame and a half from the framemeister. So 3 frames of lag minimum.

Three frames of lag is something I absolutely feel in games like Spelunky, Punch-Out!!, and Wario Ware. I only play shmups on CRT and I'm not so good, but I'd expect you can feel it!

 

[Rich!]

My current LG HDTV gave me a result of 27ms lag when using the framemeister and the snes 240p test suite and my pvm as reference.

Seems like most of that is the framemeister. Guessing the ossc would remedy that

 

[Peltz]

My current LG HDTV gave me a result of 27ms lag when using the framemeister and the snes 240p test suite and my pvm as reference.

Seems like most of that is the framemeister. Guessing the ossc would remedy that

It depends on how fast your HDTV is at scaling 480p.

Yo, 27ms with the framemeister is fast.

 

[YesManKablam]

So I'm a little curious. Apart from being able to use original hardware on a modern TV, does the XRGB Mini have any advantages over emulation?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Using actual hardware and games, which for me is a huge plus. Depending on the emulator, it also means less lag.

 

[NormalFish]

Real hardware vs emulation is an extremely subjective comparison. Not really something we can answer for you.

 

[Peltz]

So I'm a little curious. Apart from being able to use original hardware on a modern TV, does the XRGB Mini have any advantages over emulation?

No.

 

[geniusbits]

I'm trying to get scanlines out of my PS4 on my framemeister, it only works in 480p, anyone know how to get it working?

Latest firmware 2.03a, ps4 set to 720p, meister out set to 1080p, scanlines will not turn on.

Looks like this didn't get answered yet. This may not be possible, I remember trying this when I first got my PS4 in the Winter. It usually is set to pass-through, which just turns the FM into an HDMI switch box, and you cannot do anything to the video from there. I believe you can turn off pass-through and do some things to the image, but I forget if you can put on scan lines. Give it a try though, find the option for "HDMI passthrough" in the FM menu, turn it off, and see what you can do after that.

 

[geniusbits]

No.

That's not really fair, a lot of discerning eyes (Fudoh and the like) think that the FM looks more true to form than most emulators. Also console-specific peculiarities like Genesis sound can be messed up on emulation and is very hard to program, so being able to use original hardware is not just a purist fun thing to do but gives you different results in some aspects of the audio/video.

 

[Mega]

So I'm a little curious. Apart from being able to use original hardware on a modern TV, does the XRGB Mini have any advantages over emulation?

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM. The software and its shaders are very cool but they're about the worst way to play precise retro games on a HDTV. RetroArch is borderline unusuable on my plasma. My Hi-Def NES is out for delivery today and I'm excited to see how playable it makes the games on the TV (has 40ms lag by itself and the mod adds 0ms).

 

[Beer Monkey]

Analogue NT Mini pre-orders up.

Updated FPGA NES/Famicom with 1080p HDMI and RGB + svid/composite and wireless controller.

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM. The software and its shaders are very cool but they're about the worst way to play precise retro games on a HDTV. RetroArch is borderline unusuable on my plasma. My Hi-Def NES is out for delivery today and I'm excited to see how playable it makes the games on the TV (has 40ms lag by itself and the mod adds 0ms).

I'm with Mega in practice. You can try messing with stuff like GroovyUME if you want ultra low latency console emulators on PC, but the best supported and up to date platform is RetroArch and it isn't designed for ULL. It's decent on a PC LCD monitor with < 1 frame of lag, mediocre on almost all consumer HDTVs.

 

[Rich!]

I'm a huge fan of retroarch for what it offers but theres no comparison with real hardware and a decent upscaler. Especially with consoles such as Saturn and N64 where emulation is fuck awful

And it's not even worth comparing to a crt setup.

 

[Drago]

RGB seems to be on par or better than Component if you're not using progressive so you shouldn't have problems in that area with a PAL GC.
i've heard NTSC games run fine on it but i'll let a PAL expert answer that one.
Component becomes important if you absolutely need to have progressive from a GC (it's better than Wii's Component out, making it the highest quality possible for GC games without doing emulation)

Thanks for the answer!

 

[Peltz]

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM. The software and its shaders are very cool but they're about the worst way to play precise retro games on a HDTV. RetroArch is borderline unusuable on my plasma. My Hi-Def NES is out for delivery today and I'm excited to see how playable it makes the games on the TV (has 40ms lag by itself and the mod adds 0ms).

Jeez... Didn't realize just how laggy emulators were. I thought it was one frame at most.

That's not really fair, a lot of discerning eyes (Fudoh and the like) think that the FM looks more true to form than most emulators. Also console-specific peculiarities like Genesis sound can be messed up on emulation and is very hard to program, so being able to use original hardware is not just a purist fun thing to do but gives you different results in some aspects of the audio/video.

And yes, I agree that sound and visuals are of course going to be more accurate on real hardware than in an emulator. But that's not really a distinct advantage of the framemeister itself which is what I thought he was asking about.

If anything, framemeister can fuck up the visuals at certain times or produce less accurate colors than emulators from what I understand.

That said, I'd always rather play on a framemeister than an emulator. There's no contest.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM. The software and its shaders are very cool but they're about the worst way to play precise retro games on a HDTV. RetroArch is borderline unusuable on my plasma. My Hi-Def NES is out for delivery today and I'm excited to see how playable it makes the games on the TV (has 40ms lag by itself and the mod adds 0ms).

So are FPGA hardware clones a valid alternative in the far-flung future?

 

[Timu]

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM.

Yet I can play shumps on them despite that lag.=p I can even beat Contra games on them.

 

[Beer Monkey]

So are FPGA hardware clones a valid alternative in the far-flung future?

Absolutely!

 

[geniusbits]

Yet I can play shumps on them despite that lag.=p I can even beat Contra games on them.

Lucky

 

[Khaz]

Jeez... Didn't realize just how laggy emulators were. I thought it was one frame at most.

Yep, it's one frame at best with emulation, potentially many more. The OS and display drivers can also add delay (aero, double/triple buffering), the display itself adds more, and the wireless controllers can also add some lag too.

 

[Mega]

So are FPGA hardware clones a valid alternative in the far-flung future?

Yeah. The AVS is one (shipping now to buyers) and reportedly adds 0ms lag.

Yep, it's one frame at best with emulation, potentially many more. The OS and display drivers can also add delay (aero, double/triple buffering), the display itself adds more, and the wireless controllers can also add some lag too.

Yup. Android adds more lag to emulators than either Windows or Linux.

Jeez... Didn't realize just how laggy emulators were. I thought it was one frame at most.

My frustration with Retroarch is why I started down the path to CRTs and original hardware. I was falling off ledges and missing easy jumps in SMB3 and SMW like an idiot.

 

[NormalFish]

So are FPGA hardware clones a valid alternative in the far-flung future?

they're the future fo' sho'

 

[Timu]

Lucky

Yep, I don't feel lag for some reason!

Yeah. The AVS is one (shipping now to buyers) and reportedly adds 0ms lag.

That's epic, makes me want to get one!!!

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Absolutely!

Yeah. The AVS is one (shipping now to buyers) and reportedly adds 0ms lag.

they're the future fo' sho'

Cool. I have no affinity for emulators whatsoever -- they're a cool thing for when actual hardware isn't an option, but I'm glad there's at least a possibility for a good alternative to real hardware

 

[Lettuce]

Emulators add a ton of input lag, considerably more than the FM. The software and its shaders are very cool but they're about the worst way to play precise retro games on a HDTV. RetroArch is borderline unusuable on my plasma. My Hi-Def NES is out for delivery today and I'm excited to see how playable it makes the games on the TV (has 40ms lag by itself and the mod adds 0ms).

Since that thread was started there has been some substantal work done to cut down input lag and now RetroArch even supports Vulkan which should help even further. I must admit i haven't had too much difficulty in the past with missing jumps and what not when using RetroArch....but i do use a Raspberry Pi running LibreELEC which if im correct helps with input lag rather than using a full on OS (Like Windows)

Yeah. The AVS is one (shipping now to buyers) and reportedly adds 0ms lag..

Damn i didnt know this Analogue NT Mini wsas coming out....now im undecided weather to cancel my AVS order and get the mini....but then it is like twice as much but does look loads better than the AVS and can do RGB video also

 

[Timu]

Guys...I used to game on CRTs!!! But I capture everything now, so yeah.=p

 

[SOME-MIST]

I was always under the impression that the FM reduced input lag on HD displays in retro gaming... is that not the case? the two issues I always had were the smoothed/washed out graphics and input lag. Something like... skullmonkeys on PS1 was unplayable.

does the FM just make it look prettier with the same performance? or does it actually improve performance? I actually never read a complaint about input lag until now, and a quick google search did return results for it. I'm just kind of surprised.

 

[Rich!]

I was always under the impression that the FM reduced input lag on HD displays in retro gaming... is that not the case? the two issues I always had were the smoothed/washed out graphics and input lag. Something like... skullmonkeys on PS1 was unplayable.

does the FM just make it look prettier with the same performance? or does it actually improve performance?

The framemeister makes 240p sources look stunning but adds a frame and a half of lag doing so.

 

[NormalFish]

I was always under the impression that the FM reduced input lag on HD displays in retro gaming... is that not the case? the two issues I always had were the smoothed/washed out graphics and input lag. Something like... skullmonkeys on PS1 was unplayable.

does the FM just make it look prettier with the same performance? or does it actually improve performance? I actually never read a complaint about input lag until now, and a quick google search did return results for it. I'm just kind of surprised.

It depends on your display.

The FM will reduce lag if your TV's built-in upscaler introduces more lag than the framemeister.

Generally, the framemeister's lag by itself isn't a huge deal. Very few games (and individuals) care about 20ms or so of lag. Problems arise in those few games/genres that are quite sensitive (fighters, rhythm games, shmups), and when paired with a display with quite a bit of lag already.

For example, playing your console right on a CRT will, theoretically, give you 0ms lag.

on a modern LCD monitor, you'll be getting 2-3ms lag plus the 20-oddms from the FM.

on a modern TV set, you'll be seeing anywhere from 10-60 or so ms of lag just from your tv. Add the FM on top of that and you're looking at 2-5 frames of lag, at which point you'll start to notice it regardless of what game you're playing.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I was always under the impression that the FM reduced input lag on HD displays in retro gaming... is that not the case? the two issues I always had were the smoothed/washed out graphics and input lag. Something like... skullmonkeys on PS1 was unplayable.

does the FM just make it look prettier with the same performance? or does it actually improve performance? I actually never read a complaint about input lag until now, and a quick google search did return results for it. I'm just kind of surprised.

You get latency more than a CRT (~ 1 frame vs nothing) but usually a lot less than your HDTV would natively do. It's best to pair a FM with a low-latency display if you have a game that is particularly sensitive to input lag. My TV is decent in terms of lag but I'll play on an extra-low-latency monitor in some games.

Many HDTVs also just don't handle 240p properly, like not just "uglier" but they interpret it as interlaced, try to deinterlace, and you end up with an extra-laggy muddy mess.

 

[Timu]

on a modern LCD monitor, you'll be getting 2-3ms lag plus the 20-oddms from the FM.

This is what I use for all my consoles so with the FM I'm good to go.

 

[Beer Monkey]

It's also worth pointing out that feeding your set the native resolution doesn't automatically reduce display lag. My 2008 Pioneer Kuro doesn't actually benefit from being fed native 1080p over other resolutions, despite it being a native 1080p panel.

 

[Madao]

it's too bad almost no one outside the super hardcore care about reducing input lag.

it's like framerates in modern consoles. no one really cares about doing fluid and stable framerate outside a few select devs.

 

[NormalFish]

it's too bad almost no one outside the super hardcore care about reducing input lag.

it's like framerates in modern consoles. no one really cares about doing fluid and stable framerate outside a few select devs.

Think both those things are related to a 3rd issue, that being that games have become increasingly less focused on twitchy, punishing gameplay. What's 3 frames of input lag when you just need to mash a bit to take down enemies?

And on the platform that still attracts these twitchy, precise, games: PC, we're seeing increased emphasis on >60hz monitors. Definitely not just an issue of just gamers being disinterested holistically.

 

[Khaz]

I remember when they started pushing Digital TV here, which coincided with people moving from CRTs to LCDs. A friend of mine who just bought a brand new TV invited us for a high stakes football game, but their neighbours were still watching the analogue broadcast on a CRT. We could hear the neighbours shouting like half a second before a goal happened, which it turns out kills all the tension and isn't very pleasant. "Hey, a goal is about to happen, yay". I was laughing all the way because I really don't care for football lol

 

[SOME-MIST]

thanks for the replies! I've always been in the market for the FM but I really will have to do some display research before I fully commit. I'll be sticking with the CRTs for the time being (which I was hoping to get rid of when I make the plunge). it really is hard to stay away when you see so many awesome pics in this thread.

 

[Mega]

Since that thread was started there has been some substantal work done to cut down input lag and now RetroArch even supports Vulkan which should help even further. I must admit i haven't had too much difficulty in the past with missing jumps and what not when using RetroArch....but i do use a Raspberry Pi running LibreELEC which if im correct helps with input lag rather than using a full on OS (Like Windows)

I'm not entirely familiar with Vulkan, seems like it'll do wonders for emulation accuracy, but for input lag it looks to be awful:

http://libretro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5428&page=30&p=44578&viewfull=1#post44578

As for Vulkan, input lag is consistently worse than with OpenGL + GPU hard sync. I would guess that this is driver related and not something the RetroArch team can do much about, but it would be good if a dev that's familiar with the Vulkan backend can comment.

 

[Madao]

I remember when they started pushing Digital TV here, which coincided with people moving from CRTs to LCDs. A friend of mine who just bought a brand new TV invited us for a high stakes football game, but their neighbours were still watching the analogue broadcast on a CRT. We could hear the neighbours shouting like half a second before a goal happened, which it turns out kills all the tension and isn't very pleasant. "Hey, a goal is about to happen, yay". I was laughing all the way because I really don't care for football lol

something like that happened when the analog cable boxes were being phased out in my area and in my house there were analog and digital boxes in different TVs and the effect was a weird echo from outside the rooms (i had already a setup with low lag for HD stuff, which made the echo even funnier since the feed was pretty close to the old cable box on CRT)

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

PVM-14M2U came in today for dedicated TATE setup!

Yay!

My setup has become quite comical now.

 

[Coda]

PVM-14M2U came in today for dedicated TATE setup!

Yay!

Delicious.

 

[Kawika]

Is that still the case for 4k monitors, though? I'm looking at buying one of those Acer Predator monitors for my old-school setup, and I'm hoping it's not garbage-tier like the rest of the 4k shit tends to be.

Crazy to me how displays have just gotten worse and worse for actual legitimate video games.

I bought a G Sync Monitor for PC gaming. After buying it I realized there was another HDMI input. Its a 144hz 1440p monitor but it gives some of the best results I have seen on a LCD panel. I set my XRGB to 720p output and let the monitor upscale the rest. I was quite pleased with the results. Sorry for the poor quality pictures with my mobile phone.

I just want to add that 4K is bullshit (say it in Master Ken's voice). 1440p should have been the next jump. I have no idea why consumer electronics aren't catering to the needs of many gamers. None native rez, poor input lag, poor handling of legacy content. As far as I am concerned I would rather just play games on a smaller high end monitor than on a huge crappy tv.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I bought a G Sync Monitor for PC gaming. After buying it I realized there was another HDMI input. Its a 144hz 1440p monitor but it gives some of the best results I have seen on a LCD panel. I set my XRGB to 720p output and let the monitor upscale the rest. I was quite pleased with the results. Sorry for the poor quality pictures with my mobile phone.

Yeah, I was blown away by how good everything looked on my gsync. Crazy good. I mean, it feels like overkill, considering that, yeah, it's a way higher resolution and refresh than I'll even need, but the results kinda speak for themselves.

 

[Peagles]

I wish I could use gsync, I can't unsee the flashing.

 

[Grief.exe]

I bought a G Sync Monitor for PC gaming. After buying it I realized there was another HDMI input. Its a 144hz 1440p monitor but it gives some of the best results I have seen on a LCD panel. I set my XRGB to 720p output and let the monitor upscale the rest. I was quite pleased with the results. Sorry for the poor quality pictures with my mobile phone.

Yeah, I was blown away by how good everything looked on my gsync. Crazy good. I mean, it feels like overkill, considering that, yeah, it's a way higher resolution and refresh than I'll even need, but the results kinda speak for themselves.

My 1440p Gsync panel only has a display port and no internal scaler.

 

[Kawika]

Yeah, I was blown away by how good everything looked on my gsync. Crazy good. I mean, it feels like overkill, considering that, yeah, it's a way higher resolution and refresh than I'll even need, but the results kinda speak for themselves.

Yeah it feels like overkill but playing Overwatch maxed out while hitting that 143fps often feels gooooood.

I wish I could use gsync, I can't unsee the flashing.

I haven't noticed this flashing. Is it all models or some of the older models. I have seen some of those high refresh rate monitors doing that trick but I haven't noticed this at all on my monitor. I wonder if this is a IPS vs TN difference.

My 1440p Gsync panel only has a display port and no internal scaler.

That feel. Its like when I opened twitter this morning and saw that the Analogue NT Mini has both RGB AND HDMI out.

 

[Mega]

Isn't the flashing caused by the optional strobing or black frame insertion that eliminates eye-induced motion blur? Just a guess.

 

[Grief.exe]

Are the Gsync panels scaling via nearest neighbor? Why are they so perfect?

 

[YesManKablam]

I have a 3440x1440 G-Sync monitor. I'm actually really interested in how the XRGB would work with it. It's internal scaler is also really good as is.

 

[NormalFish]

I have a 3440x1440 G-Sync monitor. I'm actually really interested in how the XRGB would work with it. It's internal scaler is also really good as is.

I'd imagine it'd work quite well, then. 720p on the framemeister is better IQ than most upscalers already.

I could be wrong but I don't think every sync monitor does it.

strobing and adaptive sync/gsync/whatever aren't mutually inclusive.