NormalFish
Banned
That video actually has a massive amount of information as well as the CRT-porn
Yup, this video introduced me to his channel. Love it.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I thought you guys would be able to appreciate this. My official Nintendo branded Gamecube S-Video Cable came in the mail today. Here it is being played on my Sony PVM 20L5 (games are Smash Bros Melee, Advance Wars, Pokemon Silver). Looks fantastic. I thought my Genesis had shitty composite but Gamecube is a good contender too.
Paid $28 for them but worth every penny. If anyone wants better picture quality on their Gamecube but doesn't want to pay for component, go for the official S-Video cable.
(note, like any PVM owner knows, photographs are hard to take and are not fully representative of how it looks in real life)
Now I am definitely curious of how Gamecube S-Video compares to Wii Component.
Paid $28 for them but worth every penny. If anyone wants better picture quality on their Gamecube but doesn't want to pay for component, go for the official S-Video cable.
(note, like any PVM owner knows, photographs are hard to take and are not fully representative of how it looks in real life)
Now I am definitely curious of how Gamecube S-Video compares to Wii Component.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I got mine for 100yen at bookoff.
I think Wii component looks better, and it should cause you don't have any chroma subsampling nonsense, but s-video on GC looks very good. Good enough to not bother with ludicrously expensive GC component cables.
Edit: Genesis probably takes the cake for bad composite. It doesn't really do anything to try and work with the limitations of that standard, like later systems do. Plus the rainbow banding....blech.
No. Sync problems result in a rolling screen or no picture at all. Some upscalers and PVM need csync exclusively else they don't display a thing, which means csync has a better overall compatibility. But when it works it doesn't affect the picture quality.
Using csync cables however guarantees you won't be fooled by your TV displaying Composite instead of RGB, as it has happened several times in this thread.
NormalFish
Banned
The idea that "if it takes composite for sync, you won't see any improvement with other kinds of sync" is just untrue. The PS1 and PS2 as well as a modded N64 all see interference that isn't encapsulated by "rolling screen or no picture" that is improved with Luma Sync (or a mod for CSync).
The last time some claimed seeing interferences on an N64 here had his TV displaying Composite instead of RGB. Do you have examples where this is not the case?
NormalFish
Banned
Unfortunately I don't have a modded N64 with which to experiment, but every reliable source I can find on the net recommends not using composite sync, and if they cite any specific reason it generally comes down to the same thing as the PSX/2: checkerboard patterns. Check retrorgb or any similar site. It's also mentioned in that phonedork video linked on the last page.
Finally received my PS1 scart cables. I hooked them up and there's sound, but no picture and a 'no input' message on the screen from the Framemeister mini. I've tried everything in the sync set mode option to no avail. Any ideas?
Edit - I fixed it and my goodness the picture difference is HUGE
Edit - I fixed it and my goodness the picture difference is HUGE
Checkerboard pattern means the TV is displaying Composite, not RGB. It's not interferences, it's using the wrong AV signal.
That's what I meant by
moltonasty
Member
So, if I have jailbairs with my Genesis through RGB, but the issue is nonexistent for any other console, does that mean it's a faulty cable? Or is it a csync issue.
NormalFish
Banned
You are the only person I've talked to who has said this, so pardon my skepticism.
baphomet
Member
There is no difference in quality with sync. It all comes down to the display.
NormalFish
Banned
So then why is it that so many different sites would recommend one type of sync over another, and why would issues such as the checkerboard pattern be present with one console but not another? Neither of those seem like TV-specific things.
baphomet
Member
I've yet to see a single checkerboard pattern out of the 100 something N64s I've modded.
I have a few questions regarding my PVM 20M2E:
when using RGB, i can't seem to adjust anything with the knobs on the front panel of the monitor -chroma, contrast, phase, aperture(what is this setting?), the only one that works is the brightness one. so how can i adjust the picture, for example i would like to change the sharpness and color?
which brings me to my next question: can someone point me in the right direction on how to calibrate the monitor? (i know how to get into the service menu, but there are a lot of options there and i don't want to poke around in the dark and screw something up) any help would be appreciated
also, i have an RGB modded N64, and i noticed when using the RGB cable on this monitor the image is very dark (on my CRT TV this is not a problem, i'm using an official Nintendo RGB cable). any solution to this?
when using RGB, i can't seem to adjust anything with the knobs on the front panel of the monitor -chroma, contrast, phase, aperture(what is this setting?), the only one that works is the brightness one. so how can i adjust the picture, for example i would like to change the sharpness and color?
which brings me to my next question: can someone point me in the right direction on how to calibrate the monitor? (i know how to get into the service menu, but there are a lot of options there and i don't want to poke around in the dark and screw something up) any help would be appreciated
also, i have an RGB modded N64, and i noticed when using the RGB cable on this monitor the image is very dark (on my CRT TV this is not a problem, i'm using an official Nintendo RGB cable). any solution to this?
NormalFish
Banned
That's great. So what about the PSX/PS2?
baphomet
Member
Never seen a difference between them on either my pvm, or through my mini.
moltonasty
Member
I'm also interested in calibration info. Doesn't seem to be much on this subject online that I could find at least.
Hi guys, I keep following this thread, as I'm looking for a good CRT for my gameroom's retro-corner, to replace my old TV.
Since it's almost impossible to get a PVM in my area (and it's pretty rare to find people selling CRTs for cheap too), I'm looking for a regular TV and I just found this one:
Sony Trinitron KV-21FT1E (21")
Maybe some EURO retrogaffer can tell me if that is at least decent for gaming, considered it will be used with PAL and NTSC-J consoles, all connected through RGB scart cables.
I ask you because - as far as I can tell by reading the service manual - that Trinitron seems multistandard PAL-SECAM-NTSC, but it only comes with one RGB scart socket (other than composite), which makes me feel a bit wary it may be PAL-only.
I used to have a PAL non-multistandard TV, and - while it could output a nice picture from my Japanese Saturn and PS2, as well as a fullscreen 60hz signal with my other PAL PS2, XBOX and Gamecube - the frame was badly off-centered (around 2cm shifted to the right) in all cases.
If there's any of you who owns/had the chance to fiddle with that TV, I'd totally appreciate a feedback. Thanks in advance!
Since it's almost impossible to get a PVM in my area (and it's pretty rare to find people selling CRTs for cheap too), I'm looking for a regular TV and I just found this one:
Sony Trinitron KV-21FT1E (21")
Maybe some EURO retrogaffer can tell me if that is at least decent for gaming, considered it will be used with PAL and NTSC-J consoles, all connected through RGB scart cables.
I ask you because - as far as I can tell by reading the service manual - that Trinitron seems multistandard PAL-SECAM-NTSC, but it only comes with one RGB scart socket (other than composite), which makes me feel a bit wary it may be PAL-only.
I used to have a PAL non-multistandard TV, and - while it could output a nice picture from my Japanese Saturn and PS2, as well as a fullscreen 60hz signal with my other PAL PS2, XBOX and Gamecube - the frame was badly off-centered (around 2cm shifted to the right) in all cases.
If there's any of you who owns/had the chance to fiddle with that TV, I'd totally appreciate a feedback. Thanks in advance!
I'm not sure what you are asking. RGB is neither PAL or NTSC. When a TV is said to be PAL, SECAM or NTSC it's in relation to the signal decoder for RF and Composite/Svideo. Most TV only include the local encoding on RF and assume you won't move your TV from a PAL broadcast area to an NTSC area. Usually when a TV says it's PAL/NTSC compatible, it means you can feed both signals through Composite and display a colour picture. Both decoders are enclosed in the TV as people tend to import VHS, DVD, Camcorders from around the world.
Most TVs with multiple Scart inputs only accept RGB on the first one. It's a cost-cutting feature that doesn't affect the quality of the TV. You want a switch
On your previous TV you had a shift of 2cm between 50Hz and 60Hz? When both in RGB?
Most TVs with multiple Scart inputs only accept RGB on the first one. It's a cost-cutting feature that doesn't affect the quality of the TV. You want a switch
On your previous TV you had a shift of 2cm between 50Hz and 60Hz? When both in RGB?
for my bvm, channel 90-99 gives you some test patterns that you can refer to when changing the alignment and geometry settings.
geniusbits
Member
I remember reading earlier in this thread that N64 RGB mods need an amp to put out sufficient brightness.
baphomet
Member
Yes, you can't get a good picture out of one without an amp.
I got mine for 100yen at bookoff.
I think Wii component looks better, and it should cause you don't have any chroma subsampling nonsense, but s-video on GC looks very good. Good enough to not bother with ludicrously expensive GC component cables.
Edit: Genesis probably takes the cake for bad composite. It doesn't really do anything to try and work with the limitations of that standard, like later systems do. Plus the rainbow banding....blech.
Yes this probably makes sense. I have a Wii and component (my PVM also goes from 480p all the way up to 1080i), just really prefer using the GC for some silly reason. I think I like the lack of system menus. I should do a side by side but you are probably right that Wii Comp would be better than GC S-Video.
I am aware that GC component is stronger than WIi Component, but definitely not worth the price those cables are going for IMO.
People have already successfully cloned the FPGA for digital video successfully and used it on their Gamecubes, just no one has done so for a cable or is offering modding services yet.
Genesis RGB vs Composite is really mindblowing. When I first tried mine out in RGB I used Sonic 3, a game I have played hundreds of times, and it felt like a brand new experience.
NormalFish
Banned
My impression from browsing the various boards discussing the cloning of NGC component cables is that most of the issues at this point are logistical. How to actually get the item in to a shape and orientation that's practical for use by someone who isn't tech savvy. Thankfully, that seems like an issue that can be solved with time, so I'm optimistic.
Has there been any progress on making a proper NGC video plug clone (as in the end of the cable that plugs into the NGC)? I remember that being an issue at some point.
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Has there been any progress on making a proper NGC video plug clone (as in the end of the cable that plugs into the NGC)? I remember that being an issue at some point.
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This is the same conclusion I reached from my own research. Glad to hear I'm not alone.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The NESRGB's output is noisier when using composite video instead of csync. I posted comparison shots earlier in this thread.
edit: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=127411724&postcount=4496
The My Life In Gaming guys had similar experiences with their SNES.
The bottom line, IMO, is that if your scaler or display can accept c-sync, and the console in question outputs c-sync, then there's absolutely no reason to not use c-sync. Doesn't make sense to bog down the signal with unneeded data that can sometimes cause interference.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
You wouldn't get visible scanlines like you'd see from a 240p game on a CRT TV. The monitor's scan rate itself would change to accommodate the output signal, and that resolution would be displayed natively without scanlines.
The only time I've ever seen pronounced scanlines on a VGA monitor was a few weeks ago when I was randomly testing some Dreamcast stuff. The boot disc I use outputs video in some kind of obscure/bugged format that gets interpreted as 256p @ 120fps by both my monitor and my capture card, and the end result is this:
This is what normal 480p @ 60fps is supposed to look like:
I'm not entirely certain what's going on in the first pic, but my assumption is that you can actually produce authentic scanlines on a 480p monitor with a low-res signal by doubling the horizontal and vertical scanning rates. 240p60 video is normally 15KHz horizontal and 60Hz vertial; the top picture above is displaying a 256p signal at twice those rates, when it normally can't display anything lower than 480p.
You have to go back pretty far to find monitors that support sub-VGA resolutions, actually. I don't think those were commonplace by the late 90s. The one I have won't accept anything lower than 640x480 normally.
On some TV's the RGB picture is always in a different position. I had the exact same problem with my previous 21' Trinitron. Maybe it's a Sony thing? You can always adjust it from the service menu, if you mostly play with consoles that use RGB, adjust it to that setting.
Other than that I think I have tried that particular model of Trinitron out sometimes. It should be able to do PAL and NTSC just fine. Try searching for a service manual online to make 100% sure. But I would seem to remember it will work on that model. It's flatscreen, which I don't personally like as much as traditional curved screen CRT's, but it should be a good set.
Hey pal, thanks again (you gave me alot of useful tips for my old Thomson, a few months ago!).
Yeah, I'm basically looking for general feedbacks on that particular CRT, as it would come cheap and fit my room pretty much perfectly.
Thanks for the clarifications about RGB and the different regions. Also, that shifting was there with everything connected via scart RGB (Japanese Saturn running Japanese games, PAL Gamecube running both 50/60hz games...).
Thank you!
Yeah I managed to find the service manual of the TV, which says PAL/SECAM/NTSC 'video in'. I'll definitely need a switch, as I won't be using the composite socket, and connect all the systems through RGB scart (aside from the Saturn's, which is third party, I own official RGB cables for every other console).
Apparently, there is a Test Mode mentioned in the manual, which seems to allow to adjust every single frame value, from H/V center, size, S correction etc.
May I ask you if there is any particular issue with flatscreens?
It would be interesting to diagnose where the interference occurs. It could be a case of bad cable. Are you using a properly shielded Scart cable? It could cure your jailbars and kill the buzzing audio.
Finally managed to get a PVM, it's a Sony PVM20M2MDE
Awesome! I think my two PVMs are rebranded versions of what you have. The picture is just spectacular!
Especially the Genesis/Mega Drive & the Saturn. You feel like your playing on an emulator with it's clean graphics output...it's being pumped by the actual console!
Check out how these guys had their's set up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXvyid9FVg&index=11&list=FLjJpaAYavQ5Y8_yV3Dn0Plw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaYLVe6CjN0
theSlacker
Member
Just a small correction in this post and your previous post. You mean to say "composite video sync" in the spot I bolded. "Composite sync" is just another way of saying "csync", while "composite video sync" is the one you mean to say there which is different. The names are too close, I know. Csync/composite sync is just the "composite" of the H and V sync signal, while composite video as sync uses the composite video output to send that info.
But yes, I've read the same thing from various places. That when using some systems with some displays composite video as sync interferes with stuff and you may actually be getting the composite video as the output. This is why people recommend using composite sync (csync) if the system supports it, and sync on luma if the system doesn't. Even if there is nothing wrong with composite video as sync getting the other cables costs the same and it just removes the chance of things being fooled by composite video.
NormalFish
Banned
Yup. I meant to type "composite for sync" and got a head of myself.
moltonasty
Member
Why do "jailbars" through RGB exist exactly?
theSlacker
Member
Still best to add "video" to that, as in "composite video for sync" since it is the main thing that differentiates the naming of those two types of sync.
what amp would you recommend, and where to buy it from?
theSlacker
Member
Retrorgb's n64 page has details about the amp as well as how to make one yourself/what parts you will need along with a custom already made one that they sell I believe.
I know there isn't really much of an alternative but I'd really like to see solarisjapan adjust their price on the xrgb FM a bit ... with the recent change in the exchange rate they're getting full Japan retail at the current price of $307.51. (Have they always been charging full retail?) The amazon japan price for the FM translates to $261. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, the big-box retailers there (bic camera, yodobashi, etc) don't seem to carry it. If any gaffer out there happens to be in the Osaka area and knows where the FM is sold in dendentown, please let me know. I'll be there in a couple weeks.
NormalFish
Banned
They'll probably come down in price eventually. They were ~280$ for a little while. If you want one at 150$ or something though you're going to be out of luck at least for quite a while, though.
sixteen-bit
Member
I think they will go down in price once Micomsoft has a successor out.
NormalFish
Banned
Don't really see any reason to order from someone outside of solaris, though. Maybe if your country has obnoxious customs or something.
I mainly use amazon and ebay though, but I hear good things about solaris so maybe I should use them. Still a lot of money though.=p
NormalFish
Banned
They were super painless. Honestly most of the big japan import stores are pretty good. Some are way overpriced, but generally shipping options are decent and I haven't had something get caught by customs yet.
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