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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
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My solution is to use an SCPH-1160 and a modified cheap Scart cable. I cut the audio pins on both ends of the Scart cable then have two RCA cables run alongside it. It removes the buzzing entirely but it's quite ghetto.
1st party.
PassiveObserver
Member
We're all lovers of scanlines in here. Just wanted to share the title logo on this French Videodrome poster, drawn up in scanlined glory. It's one of the few times I've seen graphic design taking cues from the CRT aesthetic.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
At a thrift store and they have a surprising amount of nice looking CRTs. Want to get a small one for portable Melee but with the options I might get a big one and replace the one I have.
The main options being a Sony KV30HS420 and a KV32.
Also a couple Phillips and Sharp TVs with component inputs.
Phillips 32PT9005D
Phillips 27PT543S37A
Sharp 32F641
Sharp 32C230
Couple more brands like Dynex but I dunno. Thoughts?
The main options being a Sony KV30HS420 and a KV32.
Also a couple Phillips and Sharp TVs with component inputs.
Phillips 27PT543S37A
Sharp 32C230
Couple more brands like Dynex but I dunno. Thoughts?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Aren't 32 inch CRTs like crazy heavy? I remember lugging around a 20 inch TV when I was a teenager and it was not fun.
NormalFish
Banned
yeah... as far as portable goes I wouldn't go over 20 inches
That is one of the weirdest movies I've ever seen. But man, best poster for it ever.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Talking two TVs. I already have a portable one picked out. Really thinking about one of those Sonys though. They apparently support 720p? I'm just concerned about input lag since I'll be playing a ton of Melee and PM on it.
NormalFish
Banned
that's more reasonable. I wouldn't expect input lag to be an issue with CRTs. I don't think I've ever heard of it being an issue, anyway.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I've heard some later CRTs have some image processing that adds input lag, specifically ones that are digital. These have HDMI inputs, just want to make sure they will be okay in that regard.
Came home with nothing for now, but I will probably be out again later today. Worth noting that the 30" one appears to be 16:9 while the 32" is 4:3. 4:3 is probably the better option, if either. Maybe I can look around a little more for information from the computer, wasn't fun or easy trying to do it from my phone, and I was tired of standing around in the store.
Didn't get the small TV either. Was a 13" with a VRC that I wanted to strip out and replace with a Wii. But after looking at it some more I want to consider other options, because that wasn't a very good TV.
CoachKevin
Member
Protip with the Commodore 1701 monitors. Was having issues with the picture cutting out, was a bad switch on the back (the one that goes from front to back inputs). Pushed it back and for a bunch of times to clean it and works perfectly now!
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I feel like I'm going in circles trying to find details on input lag for these two TVs. "It lags," "it's doesn't," "it lags under some situations," "it doesn't seem to have any at all"
It seems like it might only have "noticeable" (measurements, anyone?!?!) input lag on 240p and 480i signals? But I don't know. Nobody is ever specific on this stuff. I'd be fine if that were the case since the only thing I'm really concerned about input lag on is Smash, and both Melee and PM support 480p - which might not have lag? Or maybe it does?
Almost seems like I'm going to have to hook up a DVD player to a couple TVs in there and test, because I'm not having much luck looking around. And even if I can return the TV (not sure about the return policy) I don't want to lug a near-200lb TV home, find out I don't want it, then take it back. (edit: no returns, so yeah.)
It seems like it might only have "noticeable" (measurements, anyone?!?!) input lag on 240p and 480i signals? But I don't know. Nobody is ever specific on this stuff. I'd be fine if that were the case since the only thing I'm really concerned about input lag on is Smash, and both Melee and PM support 480p - which might not have lag? Or maybe it does?
Almost seems like I'm going to have to hook up a DVD player to a couple TVs in there and test, because I'm not having much luck looking around. And even if I can return the TV (not sure about the return policy) I don't want to lug a near-200lb TV home, find out I don't want it, then take it back. (edit: no returns, so yeah.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you'd be able to accurately measure the input lag with just a DVD player. I think you'd be better off using 240p Test Suite with a Dreamcast or Wii, on-premises if possible. Is this an option for you?
Also, I would suggest that you opt for the 4:3 CRT versus the 16:9. Generally speaking, most retro games are formatted for 4:3, and those later games that do support 16:9 are generally well-suited for an LCD anyway. With either display, you may end up having your screen letterboxed, but the vast majority of the games from the 8/16/32-bit era are 4:3, so that will either result in a stretched image or unused screen-real estate on a 16:9 screen (but still the nuisance/heft of a physically large television footprint.)
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That would work too. I was going to see if I could just get a disc that would run numbers and take a picture but that is basically the same thing. Just need to ask if they will let me take a Wii and some cables in the store and test along with a standard CRT.
The more detailed stuff I've read (which isn't much) seems at least somewhat consistent, an analog 480p source might not lag. I've seen that mentioned by a few people so I'm kind of hopeful.
I see the Sony KV30HS420 has hdmi? I'd say go with this one or biggest with component.
I have a widescreen CRT HDTV and it upscales 240p and 480i to 480p so for older consoles it's les than ideal. Though for the PS2/Xbox/Wii it makes a quite good looking native 480p picture. [edit] And it makes for a fabulously stable image for DVD films! [/edit]
I just tried the 240p test suite manual lag test on the Component/480p Wii with a GC controller an I average at oneish frame of delay, which is the same when I use Scart480i 240p Wii on my ancient 4/3 CRT TV. I do obtain zero delay when I use the 240p test suite on the Megadrive. I suspect it would be worse, like one frame delay, with the Megadrive on the HD TV but I haven't tried it (the Scart socket is impossible to reach.) I remember doing the test but with the wiimote and getting worse results, like two frames delay; it must have been because of the wireless controller.
So I do have delay but it's because of the console: the HD CRT and the old CRT have the same delay.
The comments on the Sony KV30HS420 on Amazon are very good. I would say though to closely examine all of them for scratches before turning them on. Try to find a spotlight reflection like a ceiling neon to work with, there is nothing worse than to carry such beast only to find at the end of the day that it has a big scratch right in the middle of the screen.
I have a widescreen CRT HDTV and it upscales 240p and 480i to 480p so for older consoles it's les than ideal. Though for the PS2/Xbox/Wii it makes a quite good looking native 480p picture. [edit] And it makes for a fabulously stable image for DVD films! [/edit]
I just tried the 240p test suite manual lag test on the Component/480p Wii with a GC controller an I average at oneish frame of delay, which is the same when I use Scart
So I do have delay but it's because of the console: the HD CRT and the old CRT have the same delay.
The comments on the Sony KV30HS420 on Amazon are very good. I would say though to closely examine all of them for scratches before turning them on. Try to find a spotlight reflection like a ceiling neon to work with, there is nothing worse than to carry such beast only to find at the end of the day that it has a big scratch right in the middle of the screen.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Looking at the KV32 more than the KV30, just because it's 4:3. Otherwise they seem practically the same other than the size/aspect ratio. PS2/GC/Wii are the main things I'll be using it for, and I'm not really too worried about input lag for anything other than Smash which is 480p anyway. For anything older or platformers or whatever I could deal with a few frames of lag, but that wouldn't fly with competitive-level Melee.
Thanks for the measurements though, that leaves me optimistic.
Thanks for the measurements though, that leaves me optimistic.
My personal opinion is that taking a 4/3 480p TV for this generation would be wasting. All Wii games are widescreen, and for PS2 and GC games all those who have a 480p option are probably also widescreen. The rest would be 480i/ 4/3 and so a 480p TV would make them look (slightly) less good. I feel a 480p 4/3 TV is the worse of both world: 480p instead of 4/3-480i and 4/3 instead of widescreen-480p.
Then again, Melee is 4/3-480p isn't it?
A good way to test how you feel is the Striped sprite test in the suite. moving the sprite up and down against the various background should give you a good idea of what the TV does to the scanlines (ideally the sprite pattern shouldn't change or flicker). Make sure to test the various video modes (the last line in the main menu). Maybe a 4/3 HDTV doesn't upscale SD sources?
One default I have on my TV, and I have just noticed it, is that there is a very faint black horizontal shadow line scrolling slowly downwards, like I'm witnessing the screen refresh in slow motion. What's strange is it's only for upscaled 480i: 240p, 288p and 576i (50Hz) don't have it. It takes 1.3s to go through the whole screen, if someone wants to do some maths and find the link with 60Hz.
Then again, Melee is 4/3-480p isn't it?
you should play Brawl anyway 
A good way to test how you feel is the Striped sprite test in the suite. moving the sprite up and down against the various background should give you a good idea of what the TV does to the scanlines (ideally the sprite pattern shouldn't change or flicker). Make sure to test the various video modes (the last line in the main menu). Maybe a 4/3 HDTV doesn't upscale SD sources?
One default I have on my TV, and I have just noticed it, is that there is a very faint black horizontal shadow line scrolling slowly downwards, like I'm witnessing the screen refresh in slow motion. What's strange is it's only for upscaled 480i: 240p, 288p and 576i (50Hz) don't have it. It takes 1.3s to go through the whole screen, if someone wants to do some maths and find the link with 60Hz.
theSlacker
Member
This guy sells various ones that are pretty good. Make sure you are getting SCART, not JP21 (He may also have it labeled "RGB21") as I think he makes them for both.
NormalFish
Banned
Then again, Melee is 4/3-480p isn't it?.you should play Brawl anyway
Disgusting spoiler
theSlacker
Member
Any reason why you went with JP21? Seems easier to go with scart and scart cables and then just use a single converter cable if you ever need to use them with an upscaler.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
My personal opinion is that taking a 4/3 480p TV for this generation would be wasting. All Wii games are widescreen, and for PS2 and GC games all those who have a 480p option are probably also widescreen. The rest would be 480i/ 4/3 and so a 480p TV would make them look (slightly) less good. I feel a 480p 4/3 TV is the worse of both world: 480p instead of 4/3-480i and 4/3 instead of widescreen-480p.
Then again, Melee is 4/3-480p isn't it?you should play Brawl anyway
A good way to test how you feel is the Striped sprite test in the suite. moving the sprite up and down against the various background should give you a good idea of what the TV does to the scanlines (ideally the sprite pattern shouldn't change or flicker). Make sure to test the various video modes (the last line in the main menu). Maybe a 4/3 HDTV doesn't upscale SD sources?
One default I have on my TV, and I have just noticed it, is that there is a very faint black horizontal shadow line scrolling slowly downwards, like I'm witnessing the screen refresh in slow motion. What's strange is it's only for upscaled 480i: 240p, 288p and 576i (50Hz) don't have it. It takes 1.3s to go through the whole screen, if someone wants to do some maths and find the link with 60Hz.
I think most GC and Wii games that support 16:9 only use anamorphic and not native. 4:3 should offer more detail and clarity in most games, aside from the handful that are designed specifically around 16:9 (like Xenoblade, IIRC). Not sure about PS2, but I'd imagine it's similar.
Didn't get to go back today, they were closed by the time I was out again. Sunday is probably the next day I'll get an opportunity to go back by.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That's pretty much my main concern. I play Melee competitively (well, so far I'm pretty bad, but I'm working on it) and input lag would be a no-go. That's why I didn't bite on the TV immediately. Not sure if the TV has post-processing, it seems the issue with that one might be scaling and conversion. Hoping I can avoid both, but I'm not sure.
I can always stick with my current CRT. The main reason I went was actually to see about getting a small one for portable use. I'd like to get one of those with the VCR embedded so I could remove it and replace it with a Wii.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Hey kids. I just got an NESRGB kit, and I've got this trusty old toploader that's ready to be leveled up. Any recommendations on services/people to send it to? (I'd love to get a stereo audio mod while I'm at it, to go full out, does that require extra hardware?)
Huggers
Member
Ask Baphomet on here. He did a great job on mine
I can finally confirm that, at least on my displays, the 480p CRT has a one frame delay compared to an old CRT when displaying SD sources. I tested the Megadrive on both TVs to settle it.
I must revise my previously posted tests with the Wii. After a good night sleep and more focused testing, I can say that:
- HD CRT / Wii in Component / 480p: near zero input lag is achievable (I regularly score 2/10, my personal best)
- HD CRT / Wii with Component / 240p: oneish frame of delay (I score 13/10 on average)
- HD CRT / Wii with Component / 480i: same as 240p
- old CRT / Wii Scart / 240p: near zero input lag.
- HD CRT / Megadrive Scart / 240p: one frame of delay (consistent 12-13/10 score)
- old CRT / Megadrive Scart / 240p: zero input lag.
Scores on the HD CRT with SD sources had great variability, but never had I been able to have really low scores like when using the correct resolution of both screens. I also do seem to have more variability with the Gamecube controller than with the Megadrive controller (the A button has a longer course / is spongier?). I didn't bother to try with the Wiimote.
You already can't see the black lines any more at 480p. They were only part of the SD world. And on an SD CRT with a very poor beam resolution (like an aged TV), you can barely notice them as scanlines simply blend together.
At least for Wii games, I think anamorphic is only for SD (480i anamorphic), while 480p is really 720x480. We should ask in the Dolphin thread, they probably know better.
I must say I have no problem with Anamorphic. Widescreen DVDs are anamorphic after all. It's the same resolution on a wider area, unlike letterboxed widescreen where you lose vertical resolution. No loss of detail, maybe a slightly blurrier image image imperceptible to (my) eyes, and an expanded field of view.
baphomet
Member
I can definitely do it if you'd like. The only way I install them into a toploader is with the 3D printed SNES back panel which will run you like another $30 or so, but they look basically like a factory part.
The stereo mod is complete shit though. It splits the music and/or sound effects onto different channels, so half is coming out on the left and the rest on the right. It's a truly awful mod.
D.Lo
Member
Output, yes, rendering, no. The highest is lower than 720 lines, vast majority are 480 or even less (446 is common). Mario Galaxy for example is 640x480 no matter what.
Fair enough. I'll still take the expanded field of view over imperceptible blurriness.
Let this man into your life and into your NES. Baphomet did mine and it is absolutely glorious. Have him do the power light in the switch too.
Question though Baph: on my AV Famicom, is the stereo sound simply the one channel on both sides? Is that what Nintendo did when they added the multi out to it?
moltonasty
Member
Ok i feel damn silly. Turns out you guys were right (of course). Had my PVM outputting composite instead of RGB through SCART. The difference is quite huge:
Comp:
RGB:
I switched to RGB when I got the monitor a few weeks back, but the screen became all green, so I assumed it wasnt the right setting. Turns out the green setting was simply too high...lols. Don't be a fool like me..say no to composite, kids.
Comp:
RGB:
I switched to RGB when I got the monitor a few weeks back, but the screen became all green, so I assumed it wasnt the right setting. Turns out the green setting was simply too high...lols. Don't be a fool like me..say no to composite, kids.
baphomet
Member
Yup, it'll just be doubling the same audio on both channels.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, in the widescreen wii games I've tested, it seems clear the widescreen isn't something that was simply put in to check a box. Most of the games don't have much of a loss of quality, and the UI seems nicer on some games at widescreen.
I already own JP21 cables for my retro consoles. But yea, had I not, I would definitely go with the euro scart route.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Awesome, I appreciate being steered back on course on this. I sent you a PM, let's make this happen.
Haha yeah I'm kinda glad I got outbid because I realized shipping probably won't be cheap and the TV I have now has a much larger screen. Does look like a great retro gaming monitor though.
The "scanlines" effect occurs when the width of a scanned line is small compared to the separation between the lines. On typical modes on most CRTs it doesn't really happen. It happens with 240p on SD CRTs because the TVs are designed for 480i; if you only scan the even or the odd lines, you wind up with big dark gaps in between.
I actually think scanlines would have gotten thicker and more pronounced over time if CRTs kept evolving.
Take a look at BVMs which are capable of 1080i and 720p. They have some crazy-thick scanlines.
The oldest and shitiest CRTs from the 80s are far less susceptible to the scanline effect in comparison. Consumer sets from the 90s are somewhere in between.
moltonasty
Member
Sorry if this is off topic...but any suggestions on the best options for emulators at 240p? Yeah the Wii does it, but the consoles it has its limits due to power.
A jailbroken PS3 has retroarch, but AFAIK the PS3 can't output 240p.
So that leaves just a PC with a Ultimarc Arcadevga card I guess? Am i forgetting/not aware of another option?
A jailbroken PS3 has retroarch, but AFAIK the PS3 can't output 240p.
So that leaves just a PC with a Ultimarc Arcadevga card I guess? Am i forgetting/not aware of another option?
I don't know, the latest trend in CRTs before they were replaced by LCDs was to upscale SD stuff to 480p. Maybe some hypothetical top grade consumer TV would have gotten some of that VGA technology of horizontal scan rate variation, but I doubt it. High end SD CRTs in europe (most/all the widescreens on the market) went for 100Hz instead to reduce the flickering of interlaced images, thus killing compatibility with light guns. Their image quality was great though.
If CRT were still on the market they would be thinner, with better geometry correction, with a fixed 72kHz horizontal scan rate for 1080p and everything else upscaled accordingly. I don't think we would be in a much better position frankly.
Why would they upscale? Seriously... why? There's no point.
I know some CRTs did this when the technology was on its way out. But it just seems wrong.
I like to think that if we lived in a parallel universe that had modern CRT tech, it'd not feature any sort of upscaling.
I think it's cheaper to upscale than to have a variable horizontal scan rate. Only professional monitors and Computer screens can do it, and computer screens have their own limitations with scan rates too, but I don't know a lot about it.
theSlacker
Member
Fair enough.
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