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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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G

geniusbits

Member
Peltz said:
Why would they upscale? Seriously... why? There's no point.

I know some CRTs did this when the technology was on its way out. But it just seems wrong
Click to expand...
CRTs did and would continue to upscale because it's the easiest way to make HD sets accept/show SD content and maybe more importantly because why would the average person with an HD or TV want scan lines on their SD DVDs and eventually even 1080p content for 4k displays.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
I don't remember CRT monitors very well. If you tried to display 640x480 (or lower?) on a 1280x1024 compatible monitor, would you get scanlines or just thicker scans?
 
K

Khaz

Member
SheepyGuy said:
I don't remember CRT monitors very well. If you tried to display 640x480 (or lower?) on a 1280x1024 compatible monitor, would you get scanlines or just thicker scans?
Click to expand...

You mean a computer CRT? They had a variable scan rate, meaning they could switch between 31kHz to 72kHz to display natively resolutions between 640*480 to 1280*1024. Everything progressive but the resolutions are too high to see scan lines separation. I'm not sure how they dealt with lower, DOS resolutions, I think they used scan-doubling? I don't recall seeing scan lines in my old computer games but I haven't looked at them in a long, long time.
 
H

Hubbl3

Unconfirmed Member
Got my XRGB mini yesterday and holy balls am I in love! Growing up in the US, I never knew about the majesty that is SCART until now and I don't think I can ever go back to composite. Here are some screenshots I've taken while testing out the Framemeister:

Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
O4StXC6.jpg


Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past [SCART upscaled to 1080p
EpjnUBT.png


Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (SNES) [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
H9xjcwr.jpg


Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (SNES) [SCART upscaled to 1080p
O4Ttnhj.jpg


Super Mario RPG [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
u5vNZnM.jpg


Super Mario RPG [SCART upscaled to 1080p
DESdvNw.jpg


Super Mario RPG [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
W6qLPz8.jpg


Super Mario RPG [SCART upscaled to 1080p
ePWKjyD.png


Super Mario World [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
ezAz5Fv.jpg


Super Mario World [SCART upscaled to 1080p
8ReWu2S.png


Rocket Knight Adventures (Genesis) [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
qZcPMmN.jpg


Rocket Knight Adventures [SCART upscaled to 1080p
VpPO42B.jpg


TMNT Hyperstone Heist [Composite upscaled to 1080p]
rmVvhfW.jpg


TMNT Hyperstone Heist [SCART upscaled to 1080p
qgf7k4I.jpg
Click to expand...

And the crazy thing is I'm pretty sure I'm not running with the optimal settings yet, but the difference in visual quality is still very stunning.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Hubbl3 said:
Got my XRGB mini yesterday and holy balls am I in love! Growing up in the US, I never knew about the majesty that is SCART until now and I don't think I can ever go back to composite. Here are some screenshots I've taken while testing out the Framemeister:



And the crazy thing is I'm pretty sure I'm not running with the optimal settings yet, but the difference in visual quality is still very stunning.
Click to expand...

Are you using Picture mode with autoscaler set to Game?
 
D

dhonk

Member
Well I'm ready to order all my XRGB stuff soon. I'm excited as fuck! Will have my Genesis / Sega CD / Gamecube hooked up right away. Going to get a SNES mini too, looks like an easy enough mod to RGB. NES will have to come later, but I'll need some mod help for that one. (Bapho, I'm lookin at you! :)

Omg I can't waiiiiiit
 
T

Timu

Member
Hubbl3 said:
Got my XRGB mini yesterday and holy balls am I in love! Growing up in the US, I never knew about the majesty that is SCART until now and I don't think I can ever go back to composite. Here are some screenshots I've taken while testing out the Framemeister:



And the crazy thing is I'm pretty sure I'm not running with the optimal settings yet, but the difference in visual quality is still very stunning.
Click to expand...
OMG I forgot how ugly Genesis composite is. Nice scart pics though, glad someone else here has a capture card.
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
Friend is hooking me up with a nice PS2 Slim in a few weeks! Is there a good place to get PS2 SCART cables for when I play PS1 games on it? All the ones I'm finding have little info on them or are rated badly.
 
K

Khaz

Member
http://www.videogameperfection.com/2013/06/04/lag-tester-review/
This is a test of an input lag tester, with results from the XRGB amongst other stuff.

31ms – Sony KDL-40Z4500 – Game mode on ( A TV reported as having 0 to 10ms on other sites).
6ms – DVDO Edge in Gamemode
18ms – XRGB Mini (lower than others have logged but still disappointing)
0 to 1ms – HD Fury HDMI to VGA adaptor
0ms – Extron RGB interfaces
0ms – Cambridge audio Azur 551r in passthrough mode (other users report some home theatre systems add lag even in passthrough mode).
116.2ms – DVDO Edge with game mode off and Sony KDL-40Z4500 with game mode off.
Click to expand...
 
H

Hubbl3

Unconfirmed Member
NormalFish said:
Okay, we're talking about different things. Skim over this page:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB-mini_FRAMEMEISTER

Image_mode set to Picture and Visual_set > Auto_scaler set to Game is what I was referring to.
Click to expand...

Ah! Thanks for the link. Now I can really kind of mess around with this thing!


Timu said:
OMG I forgot how ugly Genesis composite is. Nice scart pics though, glad someone else here has a capture card.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Genesis composite is really, really bad in comparison to SCART. The most drastic difference I've seen so far has been with Rocket Knight Adventures.
 
T

TeaJay

Member
Long time listener, first time caller. I'm rocking my trusty Thomson which I picked up from a friend. Scanlines aren't as thick as on some PVM's, but the picture is nice and colorful. Holding out for a 21/25 inch Trinitron if I can find one, my previous one didn't have NTSC support (living in euroland here). Or even a Beovision if I get lucky.

EM8L7nd.jpg
Click to expand...

But until then, my games look great in glorious RGB.
 
K

KlytusImBored

Member
Hey what's up guys?! So I made a video reviewing an inexpensive VGA to HDMI converter that looks great on HDTVs and works with the Elgato HD. I also included some footage comparing a few Dreamcast games over Composite, S-Video, and VGA over HDMI so you can see the results for yourself! I hope someone finds this useful!

https://youtu.be/NNCynrPW7Pw
 
C

curlyfriski

Banned
Hey all I could use some advice (this might be a total noob question). I want to hook up my Wii to an old CRT monitor with VGA input that I have lying around the house. What would be the cheapest way to do this without adding input lag? Don't care much about picture quality, I just want to play Melee without the HDTV lag.
 
T

TeaJay

Member
Khaz said:
You only need NTSC if you plan to use Composite. But why would you ever want to do that.
Click to expand...

Something like AV Famicom or NTSC NES are probably the biggest reasons why. Probably at least the former is a system I do want someday.

I'm not sure if it can be modded to RGB, but I can't do it myself anyway.
 
M

miserable

Member
Guys, i need some help regarding a PVM.
I bought the PVM-20M2E model, and i received it today, however it seems to have a problem.There are some horizontal lines on the top part of the screen, which are present with or without an image on the screen.Any ideas what could be causing this?
Here is a pic, sorry for the quality:

nx1BTxU.jpg
Click to expand...
 
G

georgetheplushie

Member
snk2 said:
Guys, i need some help regarding a PVM.
I bought the PVM-20M2E model, and i received it today, however it seems to have a problem.There are some horizontal lines on the top part of the screen, which are present with or without an image on the screen.Any ideas what could be causing this?
Here is a pic, sorry for the quality:
Click to expand...
The quick fix is to adjust the Vertical Blanking in Service Mode (Press Menu, then press Enter and Degauss simultaneously, find and adjust the V. Blanking as desired. Once you've adjusted your monitor's settings to your liking, press Degauss to prompt for a save then press Degauss again to initiate the save. Do not turn your monitor off while saving.) Source.
 
S

SegaShack

Member
snk2 said:
Guys, i need some help regarding a PVM.
I bought the PVM-20M2E model, and i received it today, however it seems to have a problem.There are some horizontal lines on the top part of the screen, which are present with or without an image on the screen.Any ideas what could be causing this?
Here is a pic, sorry for the quality:
Click to expand...

My 20L5 shows these at the very top if the Underscan or 16:9 option is selected. Check if it could be these settings (on mine they have dedicated buttons for them).
 
Lynd7

Lynd7

Member
snk2 said:
Guys, i need some help regarding a PVM.
I bought the PVM-20M2E model, and i received it today, however it seems to have a problem.There are some horizontal lines on the top part of the screen, which are present with or without an image on the screen.Any ideas what could be causing this?
Here is a pic, sorry for the quality:
Click to expand...

Yeah vertical blanking can be used to hide those lines, but the ones on your screen look really bad. This PVM has probably seen heavy use I think.
 
C

Coda

Member
Zello said:
Long time listener, first time caller. I'm rocking my trusty Thomson which I picked up from a friend. Scanlines aren't as thick as on some PVM's, but the picture is nice and colorful. Holding out for a 21/25 inch Trinitron if I can find one, my previous one didn't have NTSC support (living in euroland here). Or even a Beovision if I get lucky.



But until then, my games look great in glorious RGB.
Click to expand...

Nice Alien Soldier pic. I'm literally waiting for my copy in the mail. I just picked up a Mega Drive so I knew that was the first game I needed to get.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I've been moving away from running 480p consoles through the XRGB mini. Does anyone else agree with this practice?

It seems like they look no better than through my TV's scaler.. And maybe even over pixelated and worse, if anything. OG Xbox looks fantastic on my TV through good old component.

So right now my cut-off is to use the Framemeister for anything PS2 and earlier (excepting Dreamcast through VGA)
 
M

miserable

Member
georgetheplushie said:
The quick fix is to adjust the Vertical Blanking in Service Mode (Press Menu, then press Enter and Degauss simultaneously, find and adjust the V. Blanking as desired. Once you've adjusted your monitor's settings to your liking, press Degauss to prompt for a save then press Degauss again to initiate the save. Do not turn your monitor off while saving.) Source.
Click to expand...

Thanks, i managed to fix it by adjusting V blanking.Any idea how long will this fix last?
 
M

Madao

Member
BocoDragon said:
I've been moving away from running 480p consoles through the XRGB mini. Does anyone else agree with this practice?

It seems like they look no better than through my TV's scaler.. And maybe even over pixelated and worse, if anything. OG Xbox looks fantastic on my TV through good old component.

So right now my cut-off is to use the Framemeister for anything PS2 and earlier (excepting Dreamcast through VGA)
Click to expand...

my TV's scaler is not very kind so i still get better picture by running 480p through the XRGB.

i tried running the image directly to the TV a few times but my TV doesn't have that many custom options so there's very few things to tweak. the image looks worse overall no matter what i do.
 
M

moltonasty

Member
I've been wondering, is it possible to downscale hdmi into 240p? For example, PC HDMI to VGA into a downscaler, then output into monitor? Been trying to find a definitive answer to this for days with no success lol.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Huggers said:
He's awesome. Helped me out big time on another forum with broadcast monitor issues. Seriously knowledgeable
Click to expand...

Tons of respect for how dedicated and passionate he is about getting good image quality. always love listening to people who are really passionate and knowledgeable about something, and he is a perfect example.
 
M

moltonasty

Member
Thanks Peltz. I did look through that, which was how I got the idea in the first place. My only concern is the hdmi to vga conversion, and if that would be an issue.
 
M

moltonasty

Member
Thinking about running either a PC, laptop, or getting a Raspberry Pi. That way I could potentially have a powerful emulation setup displaying in sweet 240p...if it's possible that is.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
moltonasty said:
Thinking about running either a PC, laptop, or getting a Raspberry Pi. That way I could potentially have a powerful emulation setup displaying in sweet 240p...if it's possible that is.
Click to expand...

I have little to no doubt that this is possible, but I think you'll run into the issue of it being somewhat tedious to set up. At least, that's my impression from reading about such things. There's rarely just 1 box or cable or adapter or whatever that is your solution.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Maybe an ArcadeVGA video card, intended to output 240p natively, might be a better choice for a PC outputting original resolution?
 
K

KC-Slater

Member
moltonasty said:
Thinking about running either a PC, laptop, or getting a Raspberry Pi. That way I could potentially have a powerful emulation setup displaying in sweet 240p...if it's possible that is.
Click to expand...

I'd opt for a soft modded Wii. It's probably the best overall solution. (It checks the most boxes in terms or price, size, compatibility, 240p-output, etc.)
 
M

moltonasty

Member
I do have a soft modded Wii, but is it actually powerful enough to run most/all MAME roms at full speed? Mostly interested in running CPS2 games and Mortal Kombat 2. I mean shit I can't even run GBA games on full speed with the Wii, I can't imagine arcade emulation being too stellar..though correct me if I'm wrong

As for the arcadevga, it seems amazing. But at the moment it would require me doing an al new PC build which just isn't financially feasible right now lol.
 
K

KC-Slater

Member
moltonasty said:
I do have a soft modded Wii, but is it actually powerful enough to run most/all MAME roms at full speed? Mostly interested in running CPS2 games and Mortal Kombat 2. I mean shit I can't even run GBA games on full speed with the Wii, I can't imagine arcade emulation being too stellar..though correct me if I'm wrong

As for the arcadevga, it seems amazing. But at the moment it would require me doing an al new PC build which just isn't financially feasible right now lol.
Click to expand...

I haven't messed around with any CPS2 stuff on the Wii, I was just thinking in terms of classic console games. There are builds for FBA and stuff, not sure how well they run, however...
 
K

Khaz

Member
moltonasty said:
Thinking about running either a PC, laptop, or getting a Raspberry Pi. That way I could potentially have a powerful emulation setup displaying in sweet 240p...if it's possible that is.
Click to expand...

The Raspberry Pi has a VGA option. I believe CRT monitors accept 640*480 as a minimum, and lower resolutions are done with line doubling, so you need your desktop at that resolution, not lower.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
I'm pretty sure computer CRT monitors support lower resolutions natively, honestly. Otherwise things like 320x200@70Hz wouldn't have worked back in the early '90s.
 
A

AlanOC91

Member
Not sure if this is allowed here but I'll happily remove the post if not.

I've had my XRGB-Mini for a while now and it's absolutely fantastic. I've had a bit of a history with scalers, from a regluar non RGB SCART-HDMI, RGB SCART-HDMI and now the XRGB-Mini. Nothing I've used touches it!

I've been documenting footage of all these scalers for over a year now. It's turned into a bit of a hobby now honestly.

Here is an XRGB-Mini playlist full of tests from various consoles for anyone interested.


There is times where the settings aren't always optional so please take it with a slight pinch of salt.

I think this is one of the better videos. It compares N64 composite VS N64 XRGB-Mini scaled composite VS N64 RGB Mod scaled with the mini.

Finally, here is a video comparing the XRGB-Mini with my RGB SCART-HDMI (the BG460, definitely one of the better cheap scalers).
 
M

moltonasty

Member
Khaz said:
The Raspberry Pi has a VGA option. I believe CRT monitors accept 640*480 as a minimum, and lower resolutions are done with line doubling, so you need your desktop at that resolution, not lower.
Click to expand...

It would be running through my PVM 20L5, no problems displaying lower resolutions there ;)
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
NormalFish said:
I fucking love his videos. That BVM is absolutely fantastic. I'm usually not a big fan of CRTs due to capacitor squeal giving me a headache, but I would made an exception for a monitor like that. Mind blowing.

**Lmao at ~9:00
Click to expand...

I like his videos too. I recently scored a Sony PVM 2530, and phonedork had a funny and cool video to introduce me to my new acquisition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmVE-S8L774
 
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