It's not creating a fully detailed frame though. I believe it's better to keep line doubling and deinterlacing separate, because there are important differences. It's like the difference between component and RGB only more drastic. You can say that component has the same amount of information at the end display, but the fact is you lost unique pixel data between neighboring pixels. Similarly, you can say line doubling 480i = 480p, but the fact is you lost unique information every other line at the end frame.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
It's not creating a fully detailed frame though. I believe it's better to keep line doubling and deinterlacing separate, because there are important differences. It's like the difference between component and RGB only more drastic. You can say that component has the same amount of information at the end display, but the fact is you lost unique pixel data between neighboring pixels. Similarly, you can say line doubling 480i = 480p, but the fact is you lost unique information every other line at the end frame.
NormalFish
Banned
idk, I think I'm with 645 of this one. I understand what you quoted and I understand where you're coming from, but in the end it really does seem like a semantic distinction. I think it's still deinterlacing, just an incredibly barebones version.
I think it's important to distinguish what people are buying into. Just simplifying everything and saying "Oh, yeah this product is great! It up scales and deinterlaces." is going to give people the impression that it's just as capable as the Mini, but with none of the down sides.
NormalFish
Banned
ah yes, that's a fair point. Best to distinguish when explaining the merits of differents products.
NormalFish
Banned
I just don't see how you can take a 480i signal, output a 480p signal, and not do some sort of deinterlacing at some point in the chain.
Differentiating for the purpose of explaining in layman's terms, sure, but idk outside of that.
Differentiating for the purpose of explaining in layman's terms, sure, but idk outside of that.
Thanks Mega. I'll use another sort of comparison... The hall mark of interlaced pictures is that half the resolution of the frame is presented at a different temporal state. Line doubling doesn't change that. You still get half resolution at different temporal states. The only difference being that each line is doubled for 31 KHz compatibility.
NormalFish
Banned
reading up, it seems the XRGB3 specifically actually has 'proper' deinterlacing as well? But apparently it's crap and adds 2 frames of lag according to Fudoh.
NormalFish
Banned
No, no. I mean it has both line doubling and what you're calling deinterlacing. But the deinterlacing it uses isn't very good and adds lag.
Someone with a unit might be able to comment?
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, wait i thought 645 sang the 3's praises because of the lack of input lag?
Oh, I see. Well 645 should be able to clarify.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
B1 mode = simple line-doubling and transcoding, no upscaling, no lag
B0 mode = "full" deinterlacing and upscaling, about the same lag as the Mini
B0 mode = "full" deinterlacing and upscaling, about the same lag as the Mini
NormalFish
Banned
alright yeah, that's in line with what I had though I'd read lol. Good to know I can pick through the jargon alright.
I've heard that too, but that a T connector is crude and it can stress the hardware being fed the sync signal but I'm not sure I believe it. You can connect H and V sync plugs to the sync input and sync output of some PVMs and create a simple circuit and it works perfectly fine.
In any case, I just wanna see if a proper sync combiner will fix the problem with my JVC. I have tried a couple of different VGA-to-RGBHV cables and swapped in another RGB/Component input card... all exhibited identical sync distortion problems, so I do think it's the monitor/input card itself not loving the HV sync.
storafötter
Member
So I am currently in NYC for a week. I was wondering if there any decent retro or used game store there? I am thinking of maybe getting a Genesis or GBA games I missed out on.
It can stress the hardware in the sense that it's not a proper CSYNC signal. HSYNC and VSYNC should be merged via an XOR gate, to keep the HSYNC pulse visible when VSYNC is up.
A transcoder. The best one being the OSSC.
dancrane212
Member
Friend of mine said his Dad found some PVMs for us at the TV station where he works. Just sent me a photo and they are the 20" PVM-20L5; I'm very excited.
^That's an amazing find!
Thanks. Would that be something like the Behar Bros Kenzei?
However, going by this post on Assembler--
--the Kenzei still isn't a proper solution and my finicky monitor will continue to exhibit distortion problems (identical to the bolded part above). My guess is that the Extron Rxi is the hardware needed to make a true Csync signal.
Thanks. Would that be something like the Behar Bros Kenzei?
However, going by this post on Assembler--
--the Kenzei still isn't a proper solution and my finicky monitor will continue to exhibit distortion problems (identical to the bolded part above). My guess is that the Extron Rxi is the hardware needed to make a true Csync signal.
geniusbits
Member
Yeah but if the display can handle the original resolution why bother running it through an upscaler? Using it as a switcher?
sixteen-bit
Member
luckyyyy
cyborgnumberblue
Member
dancrane212
Member
Just waiting for the other shoe to drop and find out it doesn't work or have it get damaged in transit. Seems to good to be true!
I just said why. Some games switch between 480i and 240p on the fly. I mean unless you enjoy changing out cables and devices every time Resident Evil 2 changes resolution. Or you have no problem with the quirk the Framemeister has with switching resolutions.
Also the OSSC is not a full fledged upscaler. It's a strict line doubler/tripler and handles picture in a higher color space than conventional transcoders and displays with SD content. RGB analog in, RGB digital out.
dancrane212
Member
Turns out one machine is a 204MU and the other a 20L5. Both are stock models with no, apparent additional boards plugged in. I've got the space for both so I'll be holding onto them for the moment but which of the two is the greater model? Only fair it goes to my buddy when the time comes.
Figured the 20L5 would be better due to it having so much praise online but I'm still pretty new to the particulars of all this so I figured I should ask those more in the know about this sort of thing.
Figured the 20L5 would be better due to it having so much praise online but I'm still pretty new to the particulars of all this so I figured I should ask those more in the know about this sort of thing.
20L5
I have a 20M4U and the L5 is sure to be better (not that I'm not satisfied with what I have).
dancrane212
Member
Just in terms of picture quality and inputs or where there more specific differences like supported video formats (480p)?
geniusbits
Member
So you're saying in this fictional device that passed through 480i, that you would switch between 480p and 480i (240p line doubling and 480i passed through) during those in-game switches? I'm just confused as to the application of a 480i pass through, what game displayed on what TV would that be used for?
I don't think I'm following your question. The OSSC being a line doubler means that if you were to not pass through 480i it would simply line double it. It cannot deinterlace 480i, but a passthrough is a smart workaround for that limitation if you have a TV that handles 480i with better deinterlacing methods.
I'm not entirely sure how the OSSC works, but it's entirely possible that it can automatically pass through 480i in some optional setting. I used RE2 as an example where that would be a handy feature. Segments in the game that are 240p would be line doubled and segments in the game that are 480i wouldn't be blurred by the OSSC. This way would achieve the best possible image quality.
I haven't followed your problem but yes, the Kenzei seem to be the thing. I've ordered a couple of 74LS86 so I can make a cable myself, as I can't justify spending $60 on this.
Simply XORing and inverting is what is needed in theory, assuming perfectly square signals and instant perfect XOR gates. I suppose in real life it's not that simple and there can be some complication with some displays. I'd trust them over me on this subject.
Have you tried the Kenzei thing?
NormalFish
Banned
Pretty sure the cause of 480i passthrough being requested in mostly for people that would like to use other deinterlacing methods. Don't think it will resolve the issue of games switching between 240p and 480i on the fly. I could be wrong though, of course.
As for someone like me who records games for youtube 480i and 240p switching is annoying as fuck, seriously, stick to one res, preferable 240p.
The problem is that the JVC DT-V1710CG HD CRT monitor doesn't like RGBHV crudely "made" into RGBs with a T connector. I have tried two of this exact same monitor, a few different VGA-to-BNC and VGA-to-scart cables, two or three copies of the JVC RGB input card. Always same results. If I remember right, it looks a weird mess directly connecting my Mame PC to the input card. And through my Extron matrix switch it's improved but still has the distortion along the top... the switch maybe has some circuitry inside that helps but it's not enough(?).
My guess is that the JVC RGB input card doesn't have the "robust sync reconstruction circuitry" of a PVM/BVM... the PC's RGBHV with t-connector looks fine on Sony monitors. For that reason I'm not risking dropping $60 on the Kenzei on the possibility that it may very well not fix the problem.
Instead I just picked up a Extron 202 Rxi for $24 on ebay. I think that device makes a true csync signal. The manual states it can take RGBHV, RGBS, RGsB or RsGsBs signal and output it as RGBHV, RGBS or RGsB... on the surface it looks to be doing something more advanced than the Kenzei.
20M4U probably has a manufacture date on the back of 1998~, 20L5 should be 2003~. Tube picture quality should be very siminlar although the L5 should look sharper due to less age unless it's got a ton of wear on it (no way to check hours on either, eyeball it). The biggest difference is that the L5 handles HD resolutions (480p, 1080i, 720p). Keep that one. Your friend should be grateful to get the 20M4U, it's an excellent monitor for most 240p/480i gaming.
Technically, the OSSC already "solved" that issue. There's no prolonged pause. So the pass through is not for that specifically. What it could allow, is line doubling for 240p, and allow your TV handle deinterlacing when a game switches to 480i.
Sometimes you don't have a choice though. There are games that switch to 480i for FMVs.
NormalFish
Banned
There still is a pause, though. And it can apparently be exacerbated by switches, splitters, displays, capture cards, etc..
Honestly resolution changes are just a bummer in general. There isn't really a good solution that I'm aware of.
dancrane212
Member
Well, without him I wouldn't have any PVM
I'll ask what his plans are about it though, think this was more going ot be a SNES/Gamecube display device for him. Not sure outside of 480p on the cube if he'd use those additional resolutions.Either or thanks for the explanation!
Well, without him I wouldn't have any PVM
Either or thanks for the explanation!
Oh right! I didn't make the connection that the friend who helped find the monitors is the same one that was getting one of them. Then of course he should get dibs on the HD PVM!
dancrane212
Member
All good. He came over tonight and we tried a bunch of stuff on the screens. I was taken aback with how nice 480i looked (via S-Video for the Gamecube) on the 20M4U. Guess the lines of resolution being so thin helps dull the flickering look that's really apparent on my CRT.
Looking at what I'll actually use the PVM for it's best I go with the 20M4U anyways. For 480p+ content I prefer having it scale on a larger modern screen but for 240p I like the CRT look that a PVM/CRT has. Don't think, aside from the novelty, I'd get too much use out of running 480p content on a PVM.
Of course I say that now. If another 20L5 pops up then who knows...
IrishNinja
Member
what model trinotron is this again? trying to look up how to access the service menu!
also, dumb question: since ive heard a universal remote might not work, if i can find any remote for this set, it should work yeah? ps booze
Business
Member
Thanks for the replies guys.
This OSSC seens exactly what I would need for my Dreamcast and I see I could also use it for N64, SNES etc.. The only problem seems to be how hard it will be to get my hands on one...
Dude, look behind it
yes you can buy the remote separately, it will work if it's the right model.
speedlolita
Member
You'd pay £200 for a PVM? Madness.
Though, I know the market has changed since I got my 20M4E for £20. lol
Though, I know the market has changed since I got my 20M4E for £20. lol
Well, where else would you suggest? And woah, £20?!
Hook me up man. I wish I could get a deal like that
Pretty sure it will be but is the seller n.i_broadcast?
Sounds like them anyway. They've got a 20" BVM for sale but want 1.5K for it and when I asked them about it they said "I know the retro gamers are looking these for their arcade games".
Basically they're googling model numbers, seeing threads like these and the one on shmups forum and then spiking the price. Pro CRT prices have spiked through the roof, especially so in the UK, and the only way of finding one for a reasonable price is to hit up local production companies and get lucky.
- Status