• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

US confirms guards kicked, threw water on, urinated on Koran

Status
Not open for further replies.

Triumph

Banned
...but they didn't flush it! Everything is ok! Move along, move along, nothing to see here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050603...pQ3NiUi;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The
Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior."

In other confirmed incidents, water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; a guard's urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

AMEEERIIICAAA, FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!
 

mattx5

Member
I'm pretty sure that's enough to start a Holy War.

YEEEHHAWWWW! YOUS DON"T WANNA TELL US NO INFORMATIONS BOUT YOUR TERRIST ACTIVITIES, BUT WERE GONNA GOSH DARN GET EM FROM YOU! FRANK, GET DEM WATER FILLED BALOONS!
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Does Dick Cheney take the Pentagon seriously? I fully expect him to denounce this evil organization immediately.
 

Dilbert

Member
Dan said:
Does Dick Cheney take the Pentagon seriously? I fully expect him to denounce this evil organization immediately.
We'll just change their status from "enemy combatant" to "invisible demon" to get around any possible rights violations.
 

nitewulf

Member
america is seriously losing world sympathy this way. then again, listening to people like ripclawe, apparently rest of the world doesnt matter all that much anyway.
 

darscot

Member
Anyone else, get the feeling these stories are a cover. Weeks from now I expect to hear of some serious torture and brutality but by then every one is going to be so sick of the Koran story. The real story will get no media at all and everyone will say or well.
 

Triumph

Banned
Kuroyume said:
Oh no they abused a book... damn those war criminals!
You're so right! I'm glad you were able to clear that up. We'll just explain it nicely to the 1 billion+ muslims in the world. I'm sure they'll understand.

Fucktard.
 

Diablos

Member
"Yes officer, we raped her, beat her, killed her, but we LEFT HER THERE! We didn't cut her up into 10 pieces and put her in a couple garbage bags! Aren't we nice guys??"
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Great King Bowser said:
I thought it was spelled Qu'ran?

It is, but the english announciation makes it spelt like Koran. I still call it Quran or Qu'ran though.
 

Dilbert

Member
Kuroyume said:
Oh no they abused a book... damn those war criminals!
Well, since you bring up the war criminals angle:

-jinx- said:
The real problem with Guantanamo is that the Bush Administration is claiming that the Geneva Conventions don't apply since the people there are "enemy combatants," which is a category not specifically covered. (There are provisions in the GC for "prisoners of war" and "internees," but what the hell is an "enemy combatant?") Have the people imprisoned there had access to lawyers? ("Prisoners of war must have the right to legal advice, particularly in the case of preparing powers of attorney and wills." Convention III, Art. 77) Have they been sending and receiving letters? ("Prisoners of war must be allowed to send and receive letters and cards. Specifically, they must be allowed to send at least two letters and four cards a month." Convention III, Art. 71) Have representatives from neutral countries (or their country of origin) been allowed to visit and check on conditions? ("Representatives of the protecting powers shall have permission to visit all places where prisoners of war may be, particularly to places of internment, imprisonment and labor. They must be able to interview the prisoners without witnesses, either personally or through an interpreter." Convention III, Art. 126)
Of COURSE the Koran isn't the issue here. It's a small facet of a much larger violation of international law, and of human decency.
 

Triumph

Banned
Great King Bowser said:
I thought it was spelled Qu'ran?
Moamar Qu'adafi
Momar Kodaffy
Daffy Duck?

Koran, I'm pretty sure, is the popularized(and likely bastardized) western spelling.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Kuroyume said:
Oh no they abused a book... damn those war criminals!

Did you read the other thread at all? It's not just a book, it's a symbol.
 

darscot

Member
I love how the Qu'ran (I have no idea how to spell it) is just a book. Yet burning or pissing on the Amercian flag would be an outrage.
 

human5892

Queen of Denmark
Kuroyume said:
Oh no they abused a book... damn those war criminals!
james_thumbs_up.sized.jpg
 

Kuroyume

Banned
I agree with jinx' point, in fact that has bugged me for a long time. My comment in regards to religious fanaticism (e.g. people getting killed at rallies because the Koran was reported to have been flushed...) but I'll refrain from posting more about it any more because I don't want to start any arguments.

human5892 said:

You are really good looking.
 
How the hell does a guards urine come through and air vent? Geez, there is some seriously messed up shit going on down there. Think about the things we havent heard about. yet. :(
 

hXc_thugg

Member
Kung Fu Jedi said:
How the hell does a guards urine come through and air vent? Geez, there is some seriously messed up shit going on down there. Think about the things we havent heard about. yet. :(

I heard about kids being sodomized in front of their own mothers. I don't think it can get much worse than that.
 

RiZ III

Member
Gitmo is such bullshit. Keeping people down there without any legal rights, without any charges, and then abusing them. Those charged have no right of appeal and, even if found not guilty by the courts, can still be jailed indefinitely by the US military. Fuck you Bush. Should piss on a copy of the new testament and mail it to the white house.
 

Teddman

Member
darscot said:
I love how the Qu'ran (I have no idea how to spell it) is just a book. Yet burning or pissing on the Amercian flag would be an outrage.
That happens like every day in the Middle East. And nobody over here riots or kills anyone in response.
 

RiZ III

Member
The Quran means more to muslims than a flag or almost anything else. Id rather get beaten by the gaurds than have a copy of the Quran urinated infront of me. Im not an extremist, but the Quran really does mean a lot to me and Im sure other muslims feel the same way. Most Muslims hate Americas foriegn policies in the mideast, have a Quran being pissed is going to piss off even the cool headed Muslims.
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
I'm not an American, but what the Americans are doing doesn't bother me. Not every country in the world nor every non-American is upset with this.
 
RiZ III said:
The Quran means more to muslims than a flag or almost anything else. Id rather get beaten by the gaurds than have a copy of the Quran urinated infront of me. Im not an extremist, but the Quran really does mean a lot to me and Im sure other muslims feel the same way. Most Muslims hate Americas foriegn policies in the mideast, have a Quran being pissed is going to piss off even the cool headed Muslims.

I'm in no way trying to troll, but why would you rather be beaten than see a copy of the Quran urinated on? I understand it's a symbol, and it's very disrespectful to do, but it isn't the only copy on Earth. Now I don't subscribe to any religion, i would fall into the agnostic category, so maybe I'm missing a piece of tbe puzzle. But to me, the well being of a fellow human (or other species) is more important to me than the well being of a book. To an extent I can understand your reasoning, but perhaps I'm missing something. Not trying to troll, just looking for some perspective.

Fatghost28 said:
I'm not an American, but what the Americans are doing doesn't bother me. Not every country in the world nor every non-American is upset with this.

You talking specifically about the Quran issue, or in general? Either way, it should bother you that the U.S. is basically being antagonistic and fueling anger, all in the name of its imperialistic march called the "war on terror."
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
The sad thing is, most people don't even realize that the Koran says that the most important prophets besides Muhammad are Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Hell, Moses is mentioned more times in the Koran than any other person (followed by Pharaoh).

The Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religious texts are all intertwined with one another, yet the majority of people, including these soldiers, consider each of them to be completely different from one another with no connections between them whatsoever.

I just hope that the pentagon cleans up its act, because I'm getting sick of hearing about how fucking badly we're treating them. (I don't even agree with this war in the first place, but that's a different thread).
 

Chrono

Banned
RiZ III said:
Should piss on a copy of the new testament and mail it to the white house.

That's the spirit! :lol

May I also recommend shooting (or sniping! o_o) down a few christians? That'll show 'em!
 
GaimeGuy said:
The sad thing is, most people don't even realize that the Koran says that the most important prophets besides Muhammad are Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Hell, Moses is mentioned more times in the Koran than any other person (followed by Pharaoh).

The Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religious texts are all intertwined with one another, yet the majority of people, including these soldiers, consider each of them to be completely different from one another with no connections between them whatsoever.

That's truely the saddest part of it all. That people are killing each other over ... ignorance really. Go humans :(
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
ManDudeChild said:
You talking specifically about the Quran issue, or in general? Either way, it should bother you that the U.S. is basically being antagonistic and fueling anger, all in the name of its imperialistic march called the "war on terror."


I'm talking in general. But it doesn't bother me at all that the US is fighting back. I'd rather they be aggressive than passive.
 

Ryudo

My opinion? USED.
Maybe they didnt like what they read, i have urinated on a harry potter book and many millions of people worship that.
 

Chrono

Banned
ManDudeChild said:
That's truely the saddest part of it all. That people are killing each other over ... ignorance really. Go humans :(

And if the qor'an doesn't mention moses or other prophets? If they're torturing buddhist in guantanamo wouldn't you feel just as sad? -_-
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
GaimeGuy said:
The sad thing is, most people don't even realize that the Koran says that the most important prophets besides Muhammad are Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Hell, Moses is mentioned more times in the Koran than any other person (followed by Pharaoh).

The Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religious texts are all intertwined with one another, yet the majority of people, including these soldiers, consider each of them to be completely different from one another with no connections between them whatsoever.

I just hope that the pentagon cleans up its act, because I'm getting sick of hearing about how fucking badly we're treating them. (I don't even agree with this war in the first place, but that's a different thread).


But Jesus wasn't a prophet ;). This is why Christians can't take the Koran seriously: it says to respect the Bible but then it figuratively "pisses" all over it by implying Jesus lied about being the Son of God.

That said, most Jews find the idea that Jesus being God incarnate to be crazy as well. While all three religions find their root out of the same mythological source, all three have drastically and fundamentally incompatible theology.

So while all three books may contain similar stories, they have dramatically different interpretive contexts.
 
Fatghost28 said:
I'm talking in general. But it doesn't bother me at all that the US is fighting back. I'd rather they be aggressive than passive.

Being aggressive isn't a bad thing, but when they don't spend enough time looking at the WHY (and that doesn't mean, "WHY don't we use more bombs?") of the matter, asking why it's happening and addressing the root of the issue, things can't truely get better. Now there will always be terrorism of some sorts, but you can't just blow an ideal away, and that's a big problem. There are many factors in the why, and despite what their chimp President might try to spew out, it has little to nothing to do with, "hating of freedom." It's also a matter of living up to morals, and not abandoning them ASAP in the name of spreading the doctrine of demo... I mean "freedom" and "taking out terror."

Chrono said:
And if the qor'an doesn't mention moses or other prophets? If they're torturing buddhist in guantanamo wouldn't you feel just as sad? -_-

Don't be foolish, you know exactly what I mean. Torturing ANYONE is wrong, and it's a shame the international community doesn't have a pair of testicles amongst itself to stop it.
 

Macam

Banned
The riots in Afghanistan that killed 17 people weren't in direct response to the Koran report; again, this has been acknowledged by Hamid Karzai as well as local ground U.S. military personnel. It's the White House's spin machine that's implanted that idea with the public. That said, it doesn't help, certainly not when compounded along with the reports of torture and human rights abuses. Nor are all Muslims rioting, in the same fashion that not every Christian was running outside Terri Schiavo's hospital in March. The bigger issue here isn't the Koran, but the constant reports of abuse, lies, and incessant demeaning of Muslims by some American forces.
 

ghostface

Member
Teddman said:
That happens like every day in the Middle East. And nobody over here riots or kills anyone in response.
Generally, Americans are more calm and will not react violently to acts they feel are dispicable, acts perpetrated by people of a ceratain nationality or ethnic background. They follow the proper rational, fair American way.

http://www.itvs.org/facetoface/activities/fact3.html

September 11, 2001

* Palos Heights, IL: A man attacks a Moroccan gas station attendant with the blunt end of a machete. Police take Robert J. Shereikis into custody, charge him with hate crime, aggravated battery and aggravated unlawful use of a weapon. Shereikis admits that he believed the victim was Arab and attacked him because he was upset with the attacks in New York City and Washington D.C.
* Manhattan, NY: Amrik Singh Chawla, a South Asian American (Sikh), is chased by a group of four men yelling “terrorist.” They chase him for four blocks. He is unharmed, but deeply shaken by the entire incident.
* Richmond Hills, NY: A gurdwara is fired upon with rubber bullets. An arrest is made when the individual returns the following morning.
* Richmond Hills, NY: Attar Singh Bhatia is severely injured and hospitalized when he is attacked with a baseball bat.
* Richmond Hills, NY: Two Sikh Americans are attacked with a paint ball gun. The police arrest two men.
* Newport Beach, CA: A Newport Beach woman receives harassing and threatening phone calls all morning. “I have an Arabic-sounding last name and I’m in the phone book, that’s the only explanation I can think of,” she states.
* San Jose, CA: Maha El Genaidi, executive director of the Islamic Network Group in San Jose, receives two threats to her organization and personally fields more than seven threatening calls and e-mails. “One of them threatened my life and the lives of all Muslims.” And others were saying, “Get the hell out of the country. You ruined the country, and you will all die,” El Genaidi says.
* Stockton, CA: Amarjit Singh Dadwal, a Sikh, is shouted at and called an “Iraqi” by four or five white teens and adults in a van.
* Tulsa, OK: According to local police, a Pakistani native is beaten by three men in a hate crime. By Thursday, the victim is in a fair condition at a hospital.
* Washington, D.C.: As a South Asian American (Sikh) exits work, he is accosted by pedestrians on the street who begin to yell verbal expletives at him, and threaten to “get” him and bomb him in retaliation for the terrorist acts earlier in the day. Although he was able to escape the crowd, he was deeply upset by the incident.

September 12, 2001

* Providence, RI: Sher J.B. Singh is pulled from an Amtrak train and arrested for possession of a concealed weapon. Mr. Singh was carrying a three-inch kirpan. National press wrongly claims that Mr. Singh is one of the terrorists being sought by the FBI.
* Cleveland, OH: Guru Gobind Singh Sikh Temple is attacked with lit bottles of gasoline.
* Bridgeview, IL: Police turn back 300 marchers — some waving American flags and shouting “USA! USA!” as they try to march on a mosque in the Chicago suburb. Three demonstrators are arrested. There are no injuries and demonstrators are kept blocks from the closed Muslim house of worship.
* “I’m proud to be American and I hate Arabs and I always have,” said 19-year-old Colin Zaremba who marched with the group from Oak Lawn.

* Chicago, IL: A firebomb is tossed at an Arab American community center.
* Gary, IN: A man in a ski mask fires an assault rifle at a gas station where a Yemen-born U.S. citizen is working.
* Washington D.C.: Tamara Alfson, an American working at the Kuwait Embassy, counsels frightened Kuwaiti students attending schools across the United States. Some of them have already been harassed. “People have been quite awful to them,” said Alfson, an academic adviser to about 150 students.
* Boston, MA: Meera Kumar is racially profiled and harassed by police on a Boston-NY train, along with other South Asians and Arabs.
* Collingswood, NJ: Vandals attack two Indian-owned businesses, spray-painting, “leave town.”
* Brooklyn Heights, NY: A man drives past a small group of men and boys gathered at a Mosque for afternoon prayers and yells, “Murderers!”
* Huntington, NY: A 75-year-old man who is drunk tries to run over a Pakistani woman in the parking lot of a shopping mall. The man then follows the woman into a store and threatens to kill her for “destroying my country,” the police report.
* Long Island, NY: A man is arrested on suspicion of waving a pellet gun and shouting obscenities at a South Asian gas station worker in Ronkonkoma.
* Carrollton, Denton, and Irving, TX: Mosques in all three cities are attacked in what authorities believe could be reaction to the terrorist attacks. Shots are fired into the Carrollton and Irving mosques, and a firebomb is thrown into the mosque in Denton.
* Napa, CA: Dale Singh, manager of a fast-food restaurant finds his car’s finish and windows scratched and scraped.

September 13, 2001

* Colorado Springs, CO: Buggie and Pinky Bajwa, Sikh Americans, awake Thursday morning, to find the word “Terrorists” sprayed in red paint across their family’s driveway and “Terrorist on board” written on their white car.
* Los Angeles, CA: Sign in the elevator at the Hall of Records says, “Kill all towel heads.”
* Brooklyn, NY: An Arab grocery storeowner is threatened with violence by his supplier.
* Denton, TX: Early Thursday, a Molotov cocktail is thrown against the side of the Islamic Society, causing an estimated $2,500 in damage, says Kiersten Dieterle, a spokeswoman for the Dallas suburb. The building was empty, and there are no injuries.
* Salt Lake City, UT: James Herrick, 32, tries to set fire to a Pakistani American family’s business.
* Seattle, WA: Shots are fired at worshippers at a mosque and attempts were made to set the building on fire. Police have charged Patrick Cunningham, 53.

September 14, 2001

* Los Angeles, CA: A young Persian woman is eating lunch with a friend who jokingly calls her an Arab. A young woman sitting next to them follows them out of the restaurant, asks the woman if she is Arab, and punches her in the eye.
* Long Beach, CA: Anti-Israeli graffiti is found on a home at Woodruff Avenue & Conant Street. Local newspaper accounts that day indicate there have been 12 incidents in Long Beach since September 11th, the same amount reported in all of last year.
* Tempe, AZ: A 19-year-old Muslim Arizona State University student is pushed to the ground in a parking lot and hit with eggs by two men while they shout, “Die, Muslim, die!” That same night, a 31-year-old student of Pakistani descent is also attacked.

September 15, 2001

* Ceres, CA: Surjit Singh Samra, 69, leaves for his daily walk Sunday morning, but never returns to the family’s home in Ceres, which is just outside Modesto, California. His body is found in a canal September 18th. Police are currently investigating to determine whether the man was murdered or died of natural causes.
* San Francisco, CA: Sean Fernandes, a 26-year-old Indian Catholic is attacked while walking with a white Australian friend in the early morning. An unidentified man approaches the pair, calls Fernandes a “dirty Arab,” and punches him and the friend. The attacker also allegedly directs an ethnic slur at Clarke and told him, “Your friend is Arab, and we kill Arabs.” Fernandes’ friend is stabbed in the ensuing brawl and remains hospitalized in critical condition.
* San Gabriel, CA: Adel Karas, a 48-year-old storeowner of Egyptian descent, is gunned down in his import shop.
* Tulsa, OK: Kimberly Lowe, a 21-year-old full-blood Creek Native American, is killed when she and several Native friends are followed and harassed by a vehicle of white males. The males throws items at the car and yells “Go back to your own country!” Lowe, the driver, stops the car and gets out to confront the males, at which point the attackers drive and pin her against another vehicle, then back up and run over her again.
* Mesa, AZ: First-degree murder charge is filed in shooting of Mesa Sikh, Balbir Singh Sodhi, 49. Forty-two-year-old Frank Roque is charged with first degree murder and is also charged with attempted murder in the two other attacks and three counts of drive-by shooting. Saad Saad, a 35-year-old male of Lebanese descent, is the owner of the Mobil station in Scottsdale where the second shooting occurred. It is reported that Roque shouted, “I stand for America all the way,” as he was handcuffed Saturday night.
* Dallas, TX: A Pakistani grocer, Waqar Hasan, is found shot to death in his grocery store.

September 16, 2001

* Eugene, OR: A 54-year-old California woman is arrested for trying to pull the turban off the head of a Sikh man at a highway rest stop.
* San Diego, CA: On Sunday evening, an explosion from what was apparently a cherry bomb on the sidewalk outside the Islamic Center of San Diego forces worshippers to evacuate the building during a prayer service.
* Stony Brook, NY: Shots are fired at the home of an Indo-American, a graduate of Stanford University. No injuries are reported.

September 17, 2001

* Beverly Hills, CA: A women at a bagel shop wearing a Koranic charm on her neck sits down with a friend and is openly disparaged by another woman. The perpetrator accusingly yells, “Look what you people have done to my people” and lunges at the victim, but held back by one of the men with her. The victim calls police, and the woman continues to make derogatory comments. No one comes to her aid, and when it is all over, the owner goes over to the perpetrators and offers to pack their lunch and apologizes for any inconvenience.
* Encino, CA: An Afghan Restaurant is set on fire at about 1:40 A.M., causing $30,000 in damages. It is unclear as of yet whether the case of arson can be categorized as a hate crime.
* Fremont, CA: An Afghan restaurant is attacked with bottles and rocks.
* Los Angeles, CA: A sign on the freeway reads “Kill all Arabs.”
* Oxnard, CA: A Sikh employee at an Oxnard convenience store is thrown to the ground and beaten by four men during a robbery. The case is being investigated as a possible hate crime.
* Palmdale, CA: Reports of shots fired into a convenience store.
* Quartz Hill, CA: Murhaf Maida’s store on Avenue L is hit by four shots. This is the second attack on his store in three days.
* Sacramento, CA: A Sikh temple in West Sacramento is vandalized.
* San Gabriel, CA: A woman wearing Muslim clothing is shopping at the Albertson’s on Garey and Foothill when a Caucasian woman begins attacking her and yells, “America is only for white people.” The victim is taken to emergency.
* San Antonio, TX: Ashraf Khan, 32, is asked to leave his first-class seat on a Delta Airlines flight set for Dallas. According to Khan, the pilot said, “I’m not going to take you. Myself and my crew are not safe flying with you. They don’t feel safe.”
* Parma, OH: A man rams his car into the Islamic Center of Cleveland in the early hours of morning. No one is injured.

September 18, 2001

* Berkeley, CA: More than 100 protestors clog the lobby of UC Berkeley’s student publication, The Daily California, demanding an apology for an editorial cartoon that one student claims as “a vile form of ethnic characterization.”
* Palmdale, CA: A note is posted at a public high school saying that the World Trade Center attacks would be avenged with a school massacre. The anonymous note lists the names of several Muslim students.

September 19, 2001

* Washington D.C.: Satpreet Singh, a 21-year-old Web designer, is shot at by a man in a blue pickup truck on U.S. Interstate 15.

September 20, 2001

* Rio Arriba, NM: A Sikh community in the northern New Mexico county, Rio Arriba, reports numerous cases of harassment.
* Wiggins, MS: Hasnain Javed, a student of Pakistani descent, is detained by authorities for immigration violations. Placed in a large jail dormitory, he is beaten by inmates throughout the night as they yell derogatory remarks. He is eventually transferred and released.
* Tacoma, WA: An arson attempt is made on the city’s only synagogue. Sunday’s attempt is the third apparent hate crime since the September 11 attacks. A week earlier, the message “Zionism plus U.S. equals 5,000 dead,” was found spray-painted on the synagogue’s parking lot.

September 24, 2001

* Huntington Beach, CA: An elderly Iranian receives a verbal assault while out for a walk on Monday morning. In the assault, a white male drove past the couple, made an abrupt U-turn, parked the car in a side street and approached the couple on foot while threatening them and demanding to know where they were from. Steven James McManus, 43, is indicted as a suspect.

September 25, 2001

* Tempe, AZ: A 19-year-old student of Indian descent at Arizona State University is pushed to the ground, punched and kicked in a parking lot near University Drive and McAllister Avenue at around 1 A.M. During the assault, the attackers make anti-Muslim remarks.
* Also in Arizona, 42-year-old, Frank Silva Roque, the man suspected of killing Balbir Singh Sodhi, is indicted on nine charges, including first-degree murder, drive-by shooting, and endangerment.

September 28, 2001

* Lancaster, CA: Two men in a white truck follow a Latino man — apparently mistaken as of Middle Eastern descent — to his home and beat him in his house. Mark Martin, 20, and Timothy Martin, 35, have been indicted on suspicion of assault and burglary against Gerald Pimental, 47.
* San Francisco, CA: The Iranian American-owned City Blend Cafe has its windows smashed in. The owner is an outspoken critic of hate crimes and was the focus of a San Francisco Chronicle profile a week earlier.

September 29, 2001

* Reedley, CA: A Yemeni grocer Abdo Ali Ahmed, 51, is killed at his convenience store after having received a death threat and a series of racial slurs.
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
ManDudeChild said:
Being aggressive isn't a bad thing, but when they don't spend enough time looking at the WHY (and that doesn't mean, "WHY don't we use more bombs?") of the matter, asking why it's happening and addressing the root of the issue, things can't truely get better.

Because the why doesn't really matter. The terrorists may even have a valid point. We probably are destroying their way of life. What's important is the HOW. As in, HOW do we (as the developed west) retain our power, influence, and achieve our aims?



Now there will always be terrorism of some sorts, but you can't just blow an ideal away, and that's a big problem. There are many factors in the why, and despite what their chimp President might try to spew out, it has little to nothing to do with, "hating of freedom." It's also a matter of living up to morals, and not abandoning them ASAP in the name of spreading the doctrine of demo... I mean "freedom" and "taking out terror."


Eventually, one side will win. It's kinda like the early European settlers and the Natives in North America or Australia - they'll eventually succumb and assimilate to our culture and join us, or we will eventually succumb and assimilate to their culture, or the two cultures will blend somehow, or one side will kill the other side off.

I just want to make sure that we're on the winning side. Remember: if we DID start this war by inciting the terrorists, we enraged them not by blowing them up, but by expanding economically and socially. The terrorists don't like our morals: they don't like consumerism, they don't like sexual liberalism, they don't like religions that aren't their own. It's because the US has troops in Saudi Arabia (at the Saudi government's request by the way).

Planes did not fly into skyscrapers because a US soldier pissed on the Koran. So I'd put this question to you: do you think that pissing on the koran will make the terrorists more angry? Before this happened, they were already willing to kill themselves to kill a few of us. Will it matter if they are even angrier now? They already kill non soldiers and women and children. I don't think this will cause them to be any worse. And there was no shortage of willing suicide bombers before. I doubt that enrollment will really step up dramatically.
 

Teddman

Member
So you are saying that September 11th is basically an equivalent act to flushing a Koran down the toilet.

Nice one.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
RiZ III said:
The Quran means more to muslims than a flag or almost anything else. Id rather get beaten by the gaurds than have a copy of the Quran urinated infront of me. Im not an extremist, but the Quran really does mean a lot to me and Im sure other muslims feel the same way. Most Muslims hate Americas foriegn policies in the mideast, have a Quran being pissed is going to piss off even the cool headed Muslims.

Yes I would rather be beaten and killed than see the Quran being urinated on in front of me. If any of you knew me personally, you would know that I'm a very down to earth guy and I'm always smiling and rarely unhappy, so killing anybody would be beyond out of the question for me, but if someone urinated on the Quran in front of me, I would go up to them and break their neck, seriously that's how much it means to me and only my family and religion are on the same level as it.

Fatghost28 said:
But Jesus wasn't a prophet ;). This is why Christians can't take the Koran seriously: it says to respect the Bible but then it figuratively "pisses" all over it by implying Jesus lied about being the Son of God.

That said, most Jews find the idea that Jesus being God incarnate to be crazy as well. While all three religions find their root out of the same mythological source, all three have drastically and fundamentally incompatible theology.

So while all three books may contain similar stories, they have dramatically different interpretive contexts.

It only imply's that Jesus lied about being son of god to Christians, because the Quran never mentions anything about Jesus and him not being son of god or him lying about being it because the Quran does not see him as a son of god.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Fatghost28 said:
But Jesus wasn't a prophet ;). This is why Christians can't take the Koran seriously: it says to respect the Bible but then it figuratively "pisses" all over it by implying Jesus lied about being the Son of God.

That said, most Jews find the idea that Jesus being God incarnate to be crazy as well. While all three religions find their root out of the same mythological source, all three have drastically and fundamentally incompatible theology.

So while all three books may contain similar stories, they have dramatically different interpretive contexts.

There are christians who take the "Son of God" thing literally, and some who take it figuratively.

I'm Jewish, so I might not be the best opinion on this, but I don't think calling Jesus a prophet is degrading or insulting in any way.

Besides, didn't Jesus state that we are all "sons of God?"

Or was that Muhammad?
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
GSG Flash said:
It only imply's that Jesus lied about being son of god to Christians, because the Quran never mentions anything about Jesus and him not being son of god or him lying about being it because the Quran does not see him as a son of god.


Let me put it this way:

Muslims believe that the Koran was always with God and was the word of God, right?


Christians believe the same thing about Jesus. Saying Jesus was just a prophet is like saying the Koran is just a book. The Koran denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is God incarnate. A Muslim would disagree that Jesus Christ is the same person as God the Father.


Therefore, Islam and Christianity are incompatible. You cannot be a Muslim and truly say the Bible is 100% accurate and the revealed word of God, because it conflicts with the Koran. You cannot be a Christian and say that the Koran is the word of god because it conflicts with the core belief that Jesus Christ is God.
 

Teddman

Member
ghostface said:
No I am not. What's nice is you completely evading the point.
And what exactly was the point of that huge post up there?

Someone implied that Americans react similarly when people desecrate the American flag. I pointed out that the flag is burned all the time overseas and nobody riots in response.

Then you post a bunch of post 9/11 anti-arab/muslim police calls as if it's relevant. If all of that happened after somebody flushed a flag down the toilet, you'd have yourself a rebuttal.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
GaimeGuy said:
There are christians who take the "Son of God" thing literally, and some who take it figuratively.

I'm Jewish, so I might not be the best opinion on this, but I don't think calling Jesus a prophet is degrading or insulting in any way.

Besides, didn't Jesus state that we are all "sons of God?"

Or was that Muhammad?

I'm like 99.9% sure it wasn't Muhammed because we don't believe in god as having sons or daughters and such because we believe that would lower him to the state of humans.
 

Fatghost

Gas Guzzler
GaimeGuy said:
There are christians who take the "Son of God" thing literally, and some who take it figuratively.

I'm Jewish, so I might not be the best opinion on this, but I don't think calling Jesus a prophet is degrading or insulting in any way.

Besides, didn't Jesus state that we are all "sons of God?"

Or was that Muhammad?


Jesus said we were all God's children (in a figurative created sense, not a literal sense)_but Jesus also was very very clear that he was God.

It all comes down to C S Lewis' famous "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument.

Basically, you can't say that Jesus was a great moral teacher or just a prophet of God, because he also says he is God and that there is no other way to reach God except by believing in Jesus.

If Jesus was not God, he was clearly insane, or he was a liar. So if he is insane, he isn't a good moral teacher or a prophet of God, right? If he expressly lied, then is most certainly not a good moral teacher and far from being a prophet of God, he must certainly be evil.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Fatghost28 said:
Let me put it this way:

Muslims believe that the Koran was always with God and was the word of God, right?


Christians believe the same thing about Jesus.
Saying Jesus was just a prophet is like saying the Koran is just a book. The Koran denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is God incarnate. A Muslim would disagree that Jesus Christ is the same person as God the Father.


Therefore, Islam and Christianity are incompatible. You cannot be a Muslim and truly say the Bible is 100% accurate and the revealed word of God, because it conflicts with the Koran. You cannot be a Christian and say that the Koran is the word of god because it conflicts with the core belief that Jesus Christ is God.

So, Christians believe that Jesus was always with God and was the word of God... doesn't that make him a prophet/angel? Eh? eh? :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom