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[Boogie]

uhhh...you guys have warped views about islamic states.

Well, not about Egypt, Iran, or Saudi Arabia at least

Or Pakistan, or pre-intervention Afghanistan....etc.

 

[Fatghost]

Anyways, it's been a nice conversation, but I have to get some sleep. Got my SATs tomorrow.

Good luck.

 

[nitewulf]

Well, not about Egypt, Iran, or Saudi Arabia at least

Or Pakistan, or pre-intervention Afghanistan....etc.

from what i know christianity exists in egypt and pakistan. saudi arabia/iran are severe nations, unlike most.

 

[Fatghost]

from what i know christianity exists in egypt and pakistan. saudi arabia/iran are severe nations, unlike most.

Would you say Christianity is as restriction free and tolerated in the Middle East as Islam is in the west?

 

[Boogie]

from what i know christianity exists in egypt and pakistan. saudi arabia/iran are severe nations, unlike most.

Umm, did you look at the second link I posted?

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Maybe they didnt like what they read, i have urinated on a harry potter book and many millions of people worship that.

It's talk like that that will get an enraged Harry Potter fan to pick up someone who looks like you and cut off your head on videotape! It's a symbol, you fool!

 

[basik]

Meanwhile, you have the corruption of the catholic church, the reformation, the middle ages, etc, and even changes from the official language of the bible, it's easy to see how information can, and most likely, by all logical means, has, been altered from its original context.

he is right, some newer versions of the bible have words changed on purpose to feminize and make them "politically correct".

like before it might have said "jesus was a patriarch and kept his hoes in check"

now it will say "jesus treated everyone equally."

theres some good articles out there about it but im not lookin for the links now, find it yourself.

 

[effzee]

Look, it doesn't matter if they're "supposed" to treat them with respect and honour, if they don't.

Christians are supposed to love thy neighbour, and enemy, but they catch a lot of flack on GAF because they don't (and perhaps rightly so).

So the same flack should go to those muslims who don't practice what they preach. You can't excuse the actions of these governments just by saying "well, yeah, but they're not supposed to do that".

what are u arguing? i was simply replying to f_elz mentioning something about how Quran says christians and jews should be treated. i know how badly christians, jews, or other religions are treated in the middle east at times.

 

[nitewulf]

Would you say Christianity is as restriction free and tolerated in the Middle East as Islam is in the west?

definitely not. again, depends on the states though. democratic nations like india and bangladesh are pretty damn liberal (though they arent in the middle east), but islamic states like pakistan is a different matter. you have to understand, western states arent necessarilly "christian".
whichever state has a greater political identity is usually more liberal.

 

[Boogie]

he is right, some newer versions of the bible have words changed on purpose to feminize and make them "politically correct".

like before it might have said "jesus was a patriarch and kept his hoes in check"

now it will say "jesus treated everyone equally."

theres some good articles out there about it but im not lookin for the links now, find it yourself.

Umm, yeah, but those Bibles that deliberately change the wording to be more politically correct are widely denounced by most Christian groups.

There are also Bibles that have wording changed to be more "readable" (ie Teen Bibles, that sort of thing), but their existence doesn't nullify those Bibles which are very concerned with accuracy of translation.

 

[Fatghost]

definitely not. again, depends on the states though. democratic nations like india and bangladesh are pretty damn liberal (though they arent in the middle east), but islamic states like pakistan is a different matter. you have to understand, western states arent necessarilly "christian".
whichever state has a greater political identity is usually more liberal.

I didn't say the west is "Christian". Religious government (any religion) is absolutely, without question, an evil and a blight on human kind and should be eradicated as quickly and as mercilessly as possible.

Religious people in government are a different matter and I don't really mind that at all. But governments themselves should not be based on religion.

 

[Father_Brain]

Why do some people think it's odd for Muslims to be offended by this? Was anyone surprised when American Christians were offended by a photo of a crucifix immersed in urine?

 

[Dilbert]

You people keep losing the damn plot, and it makes your handlers VERY happy.

FUCK talking about what did or did not happen to the Koran, and skip the damn theology lessons. Does anyone want to talk about the REAL issue -- namely, the Bush Administration breaking the law?

 

[bionic77]

You people keep losing the damn plot, and it makes your handlers VERY happy.

FUCK talking about what did or did not happen to the Koran, and skip the damn theology lessons. Does anyone want to talk about the REAL issue -- namely, the Bush Administration breaking the law?

Yeah, people are losing sight of the big picture (a tactic perfected by the Bush Admit btw ).

Regardless of what they did to what book, I am surprised more people aren't pissed at the fucked up things our Army is getting caught doing on a monthly basis it seems. And that is just the stuff they are getting caught doing, God knows what goes unreported. Things like this, the BS Iraq war, and a whole sort of other things makes me thing that we are the bad guy sometimes.

 

[Macam]

You people keep losing the damn plot, and it makes your handlers VERY happy.

FUCK talking about what did or did not happen to the Koran, and skip the damn theology lessons. Does anyone want to talk about the REAL issue -- namely, the Bush Administration breaking the law?

I was about to post the same thing in essence. People are completely missing the point here and it's precisely this kind of tangential irrelevant dialogue that obscures the real issue; what's lost on us isn't lost on the rest of the world to whom this news actually matters.

 

[Fatghost]

You people keep losing the damn plot, and it makes your handlers VERY happy.

FUCK talking about what did or did not happen to the Koran, and skip the damn theology lessons. Does anyone want to talk about the REAL issue -- namely, the Bush Administration breaking the law?

It's against the law to pee on the Koran?

 

[Triumph]

You people keep losing the damn plot, and it makes your handlers VERY happy.

FUCK talking about what did or did not happen to the Koran, and skip the damn theology lessons. Does anyone want to talk about the REAL issue -- namely, the Bush Administration breaking the law?

Why do you hate freedom, Jinx? Why do you apologize for the terrorists?

 

[king zell]

So there you go. I'm sure if I lived in Saudi Arabia as a non-Muslim my opinion would be different, but I don't and it isn't if that helps.

and why whould it be?

 

[Drozmight]

I can understand why this will make people angry. The dude wasn't just pissing on a book... he was pissing all over islam. It's not like he had to throw it into a fire to keep from freezing to death in a snow storm... he did what he did intentionally to piss people off.

 

[Instigator]

My theory on the different religions of the world is that God purposely set up all these different religions as kind of a test, to help us seek spiritual truth and peace with each other through conflict with each other.

Why bother with such a useless test? There are different religions because there are different cultures and points of view everywhere. Yeah, they share some common points, but there are some irreconciliable differences, just like in politics. There's never just one way. Even when one religion starts strong and emphasizes the uncorruptible word of God, it will eventually splinter. It happened to Catholicism and Islam.

Why does God have to be so freaking mundane with something that would happen naturally without his interference?

 

[GSG Flash]

You have absolutely no idea how funny this is considering your wahabi bashing.

Well, okay I was exaggerating a bit, the actual height I would probably go to is seriously hurting someone, but still it would piss me off extremely.

 

[Link648099]

Yeah, I know i'm a little late to the party, but oh well.

All the arguments given by Muslims on this board against Christianity, are grossly missinformed and are really nothing but the typical mantras that most muslims simply repeat because they have heard it said somewhere.

I've been discussing Christianity with them for some three years now, and sorry guys, but your arguments are simply wrong.

I dont have time to get into vast debates over all this topic because my computer time is limited (stupid library policy), but I will post some webpages from a pretty darn good website that researches this kind of stuff.

The Divine Claims of Jesus

The Textual Reliability of the New Testament

Gospel Dates, Gospel Authors, Gospels Freedoms

On the Reliability of Oral Tradition

This is a good one for our Muslim friends here:
Qur'anic Straw Men About Christianity

And for anyone interested in a Christian perspective of Islam, go here:
Answering Islam


Most of these websites usually refute the misinformation put out, and repeated, and repeated, and repeated, by most Muslims I have encountered.

But even more so, it would probably be good for any armchair atheist out there, or whatever, to check out the website www.tektonics.org due to the vast amount of well researched articles that are based, not on floppy interpretations or a person's feelings, but on information gathered together over the decades by Biblical scholars, etc.

Some advice there, thats all, as it usually gets old hearing about how X actually took the time to read the Bible (in ENGLISH, no less :lol ) and then have the authority to declare it to be an irrelevent and false book, has contradictions (remember, in the ENGLISH :lol), doesnt make sense (speaks more for the reader the for the Bible), or spends all their time crafting arguements from emotion based on their spotty history or whatever, yadda yadda, yadda.

For that, read this page: Why Bible Critics Do Not Deserve the Benefit of the Doubt

It doesn't take very long to realize that a thorough understanding of the Bible -- and this would actually apply to any complex work from any culture -- requires specialized knowledge, and a broad range of specialized knowledge in a variety of fields. Obviously the vast majority of believers spend their entire lives doing little more than reading the Bible in English (or whatever native tongue) and importing into its words whatever ideas they derive from their own experiences. This process is very often one of "decontextualizing" -- what I have here called "reading it like it was written yesterday and for you personally." Of course if the church as a whole is locked into this mentality, you may well suspect that critics (whether Skeptics or other) and those in alternate faiths are no better off.

This whole forum would do itself good to read some of these links, so at least, since the topic comes up so much, people actually ::know:: what they are talking about when it comes to Christianity, etc.

 

[Triumph]

and why whould it be?

Did you read the rest of that post I made? My disdain for Christians, Christianity and the bible is largely based off of my anecdotal experiences living in the deep South, the most fundamentally weird place for Christianity in the US IMHO.

If you didn't know, the branch of Islam that is followed in Saudi Arabia is Wahabism, and is the rough equivalent of ass-crazy Christianity. So there you go.

 

[pestul]

Yeah, I know i'm a little late to the party, but oh well.

All the arguments given by Muslims on this board against Christianity, are grossly missinformed and are really nothing but the typical mantras that most muslims simply repeat because they have heard it said somewhere.

I've been discussing Christianity with them for some three years now, and sorry guys, but your arguments are simply wrong.

I dont have time to get into vast debates over all this topic because my computer time is limited (stupid library policy), but I will post some webpages from a pretty darn good website that researches this kind of stuff.

The Divine Claims of Jesus

The Textual Reliability of the New Testament

Gospel Dates, Gospel Authors, Gospels Freedoms

On the Reliability of Oral Tradition

This is a good one for our Muslim friends here:
Qur'anic Straw Men About Christianity

And for anyone interested in a Christian perspective of Islam, go here:
Answering Islam


Most of these websites usually refute the misinformation put out, and repeated, and repeated, and repeated, by most Muslims I have encountered.

But even more so, it would probably be good for any armchair atheist out there, or whatever, to check out the website www.tektonics.org due to the vast amount of well researched articles that are based, not on floppy interpretations or a person's feelings, but on information gathered together over the decades by Biblical scholars, etc.

Some advice there, thats all, as it usually gets old hearing about how X actually took the time to read the Bible (in ENGLISH, no less :lol ) and then have the authority to declare it to be an irrelevent and false book, has contradictions (remember, in the ENGLISH :lol), doesnt make sense (speaks more for the reader the for the Bible), or spends all their time crafting arguements from emotion based on their spotty history or whatever, yadda yadda, yadda.

For that, read this page: Why Bible Critics Do Not Deserve the Benefit of the Doubt



This whole forum would do itself good to read some of these links, so at least, since the topic comes up so much, people actually ::know:: what they are talking about when it comes to Christianity, etc.

This is precisely why I just ignore organized religion and adopt a general, more personal spirituality. It's really not worth getting worked up about.

 

[Shompola]

Indonesia and Saudi Arabia are pretty much the worse offenders of muslim followers today. Wahabism is flourishing in these countries. Wahabism is getting pretty damn popular in Pakistan, Malaysia and Egypt aswell. Iran on the other hand, while a theocracy is a much better place to live in if you're a christian than the allready mentioned countries.

 

[Shompola]

If you didn't know, the branch of Islam that is followed in Saudi Arabia is Wahabism, and is the rough equivalent of ass-crazy Christianity. So there you go.

There isn't a single christian sect that can be compared to wahabism. While you have had it though, people who had to deal with wahabii had it much worse.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

How the hell does a guards urine come through and air vent? Geez, there is some seriously messed up shit going on down there. Think about the things we havent heard about. yet.

We need some experts on the Magic Bullet Theory here, stat.

 

[SlickWilly223]

As a devout Roman Catholic, I wouldn't give 2 shits if a terrorist was to shit on a bible...

 

[Pedigree Chum]

Muslim here, and even though I'm a VERY liberal muslim someone defacing the Qu'ran is the equivalent to someone raping a member of my family. i.e. I would go insane and probably kill someone. My level of respect for the Qu'ran is extremely high, even though I might not be the best muslim out there (not even close), any disrespect to it is way too much for me to handle.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

t all comes down to C S Lewis' famous "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument.

Basically, you can't say that Jesus was a great moral teacher or just a prophet of God, because he also says he is God and that there is no other way to reach God except by believing in Jesus.

If Jesus was not God, he was clearly insane, or he was a liar. So if he is insane, he isn't a good moral teacher or a prophet of God, right? If he expressly lied, then is most certainly not a good moral teacher and far from being a prophet of God, he must certainly be evil.

I never bought this argument, because I've both met and read about plenty of brilliant people who showed great wisdom much of the time but were utterly deluded on certain subjects. Lunacy isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

 

[Malakhov]

What is going on at the Guantanamo Bay prison is perfectly normal for such an environement. I remember reading about a research they did with students once, they had them separated in two groups, one group were the prisoners and one group were the guards. It didn't take long for the people acting as the guards to become violent towards the prisoners even though it was just a research.

It's pathetic really but it's human nature, the people with power often abuse the people without it.

 

[Zaptruder]

If Jesus was not God, he was clearly insane, or he was a liar. So if he is insane, he isn't a good moral teacher or a prophet of God, right? If he expressly lied, then is most certainly not a good moral teacher and far from being a prophet of God, he must certainly be evil.

Is that the kind of flawed logic Christians continue to use as material evidence?

How does it follow that if a man commits one evil, unrighteous deed, that he can only commit evil unrighteous deeds?

That is to say, why can't a man lie about been god, while still expressing logical and worthwhile teachings in other areas of knowledge, wisdom and life?

 

[Instigator]

Is that the kind of flawed logic Christians continue to use as material evidence?

How does it follow that if a man commits one evil, unrighteous deed, that he can only commit evil unrighteous deeds?

That is to say, why can't a man lie about been god, while still expressing logical and worthwhile teachings in other areas of knowledge, wisdom and life?

There's the third option: Jesus never said he was God or Son of God. Considering when the Gospels were written, I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[GaimeGuy]

There's the third option: Jesus never said he was God or Son of God. Considering when the Gospels were written, I wouldn't rule it out.

The problem is, there are people who take everything in their religious texts to be literal, and absolute truth. Anyone who suggests a figurative interpretation or flaw in the text is automatically deemed a heretic.

So much for "do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's really the golden rule of all today's religions, but most people don't get it.

 

[king zell]

Did you read the rest of that post I made? My disdain for Christians, Christianity and the bible is largely based off of my anecdotal experiences living in the deep South, the most fundamentally weird place for Christianity in the US IMHO.

If you didn't know, the branch of Islam that is followed in Saudi Arabia is Wahabism, and is the rough equivalent of ass-crazy Christianity. So there you go.

I read your other posts.. but what I wanted to make clear is that there is no branch of Islam called "Wahabism".. this is a term that been used alot lately specially by media and they have been trying to link it as much as they could to terrorism.. just to hurt Saudi Arabia.. and believe me alot of people hate Saudi Arabia even in the Arab World..

I think many people here and everywhere have the wrong idea about Saudi Arabia.. they only see the CNN or FOX version (for examle).. maybe they couldn't get the chance to see the real Saudi Arabia.. one time I told one of my american friends that I'm from SA and he asked me if I have an oil well behind my house and he already assumed that I'm very very rich.. that was long ago.. I bet people's idea now is much worse thanks to the doing of a small group of people who took the wrong bath..

 

[Azih]

Alright ok. I'm late to this thread, so yeah.


First off. It's pretty crazy to me that it's so hard to accept for the non Muslims on this board to accept how untouchable the Quran is held to be, even though every freaking Muslim on the forums has said that it is. Lemme try again. Violating the Quran is really as bad as burning a church down (empty).


Secondly. What the hell happened to the Bush administrations vow that they would reach out to the Muslim world? Dammit but they're justifying everything the extremists have said. It doesn't matter how dumb or feeble minded you consider the respect for the Quran to be, the point is that if you want to reach out to Muslims YOU DO NOT ABUSE THE QURAN. Anybody who knows anything about the religion could have told you that. Idjits. This is the best fucking thing Bin Laden and his ilk could have hoped for and it's sad that you guys don't recognize that.

 

[Azih]

I read your other posts.. but what I wanted to make clear is that there is no branch of Islam called "Wahabism".. this is a term that been used alot lately specially by media and they have been trying to link it as much as they could to terrorism.. just to hurt Saudi Arabia.. and believe me alot of people hate Saudi Arabia even in the Arab World..

I think many people here and everywhere have the wrong idea about Saudi Arabia.. they only see the CNN or FOX version (for examle).. maybe they couldn't get the chance to see the real Saudi Arabia.. one time I told one of my american friends that I'm from SA and he asked me if I have an oil well behind my house and he already assumed that I'm very very rich.. that was long ago.. I bet people's idea now is much worse thanks to the doing of a small group of people who took the wrong bath..

I lived in KSA for 10 years and I gotta tell you man, that aint a very nice place. The Saudis have taken extremely good care of Mecca and Medina and I got to give them props for that, but other than that? :shudder:

Frankly the brand of Islam that keeps women from driving and gives the muttwas the powers that they have is distinct from what's done in every other muslim country so I'm going to go ahead and call it Wahhabism if you don't mind.

And are you saying that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al_Wahhab never existed?

 

[McLesterolBeast]

I want to know how the fuck somebody can say that the qu'ran is more important to a muslim than the american flag is to an american patriot. What the fuck makes you think your hokey beliefs are any more fanatical than some redneck's irrational love for his country? The fact that some religious text may suggest that it's holy doesn't make it any more significant to an individual, it just has official recognition. An american can view the flag with whatever level of reverence they so feel compelled to; and the same applies for any other religious text. It's not up to you to tell someone how important a material object is to them.

A fanatical patriot may very well take it as an insult worthy of death if you burn a flag, just as a fanatical muslim might view desecrating the qu'ran that way. SANE people from both groups would take it as insulting, but an otherwise meaningless act. Whether the 'average' muslim may be more insulted than the 'average' patriot for these respective acts is a different issue. If you want to get into which group has a larger proportion of insane individuals, good luck. It's a toss up in my books.

 

[White Man]

What is going on at the Guantanamo Bay prison is perfectly normal for such an environement. I remember reading about a research they did with students once, they had them separated in two groups, one group were the prisoners and one group were the guards. It didn't take long for the people acting as the guards to become violent towards the prisoners even though it was just a research.

It's pathetic really but it's human nature, the people with power often abuse the people without it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

The article actually brings up the Abu Ghraib (and I'd wager the same could be said about Camp X-Ray) angle:

Comparisons to the Abu Ghraib abuse

The human rights abuses that occurred at the Abu Ghraib prison under the authority of the American armed forces in the aftermath of the 2003 Iraq war may be a recent example of what happened in the experiment in real life. Soldiers were thrust into the role of prison guards and began to sadistically torment prisoners there and at other detention sites in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many of the specific acts of humiliation were similar to those that occurred in the Stanford Prison Experiment, according to Zimbardo[1] (http://wais.stanford.edu/War/war_05152004.htm). The comparison was widely discussed in the media.

This theory has been challenged by allegations by Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker that these soldiers were in fact acting under direct orders of their superiors as part of a top secret Pentagon intelligence gathering program authorized by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld[2] (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact). It has also been challenged by William Saletan of Slate in an article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2100419/).

 

[Azih]

I want to know how the fuck somebody can say that the qu'ran is more important to a muslim than the american flag is to an american patriot.

dude, we're muslim.

A fanatical patriot may very well take it as an insult worthy of death if you burn a flag, just as a fanatical muslim might view desecrating the qu'ran that way.

We're not talking about fanatical muslims, we're talking about normal everday muslims. Now if you want to think that's insane go right the hell ahead.

 

[king zell]

I lived in KSA for 10 years and I gotta tell you man, that aint a very nice place. The Saudis have taken extremely good care of Mecca and Medina and I got to give them props for that, but other than that? :shudder:

whats other than that? I can't comment on such a broad statment

Frankly the brand of Islam that keeps women from driving and gives the muttwas the powers that they have is distinct from what's done in every other muslim country so I'm going to go ahead and call it Wahhabism if you don't mind.

First of all I'm not saying women shouldn't drive.. IMO they should but in the right conditions.. BTW this issue is under considerations now and I think its just a matter of time before women start to drive in SA.. but I want to say that not allowing women to drive is not just a thing they decided on their own.. the decision is based on Islamic teachings most people here don't know many fundemental thing about islam so I don't want to go further and take the thread to another direction.. maybe we can discuss this exact issue somewhere else..

And are you saying that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al_Wahhab never existed?

Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab is a real man.. I don't say he doesn't exist.. but what i'm saying is that there is no distinguishable branch of islam called "Wahhabism".. this guy did a great thing by taking people from doing wrong things such as praying to graves and trees in the Arabian peninsula..

 

[Azih]

whats other than that? I can't comment on such a broad statment

Everything Else. It's kinda meant to be a broad statement.

First of all I'm not saying women shouldn't drive.. IMO they should but in the right conditions..

What?

BTW this issue is under considerations now and I think its just a matter of time before women start to drive in SA.. but I want to say that not allowing women to drive is not just a thing they decided on their own.. the decision is based on Islamic teachings most people here don't know many fundemental thing about islam so I don't want to go further and take the thread to another direction.. maybe we can discuss this exact issue somewhere else..

Yeah that's probably wise, this thread has splintered enough already, I'd like to repeat a point I made earlier though.

Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab is a real man.. I don't say he doesn't exist.. but what i'm saying is that there is no distinguishable branch of islam called "Wahhabism"..

Once again, the way Islam is practicied in Saudi is very different from every other place on the planet. As such it is a very distinguishable branch of Islam. You can call it Saudi Style Islam if you want. But I'll call it Wahhabism if you don't mind.

 

[king zell]

What?

first of all we can agree that Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab himself never said women shouldn't drive or something simmilar.. the decision is based on "Ijtihad".. this means that there is no statment on this issue in Quran or Sunnah and that we must try our best and decide on a thing that will be better for muslims in this country.. after "Ijtihad" a person might decide a wrong thing or a right thing.. If the for example allowed women above the age of 38 to drive they will prevent problems that could happen between young women and men "18-29"years old.. you can't say other countries dont have such a problem and SA shouldn't too.. I tell this SA is not like any place this is a new thing to them and they must try to make it work in the right conditions

Once again, the way Islam is practicied in Saudi is very different from every other place on the planet. As such it is a very distinguishable branch of Islam. You can call it Saudi Style Islam if you want. But I'll call it Wahhabism if you don't mind.

We pray just like other muslims.. we live like them.. but I think u mean that in SA people are more in line with islamic teachings than any other place.. this is normal.. its the holy land and the origin of islam..

 

[Azih]

first of all we can agree that Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab himself never said women shouldn't drive or something simmilar.. the decision is based on "Ijtihad".. this means that there is no statment on this issue in Quran or Sunnah and that we must try our best and decide on a thing that will be better for muslims in this country

I know that there is nothing like this in the Quran or the Sunnah and what I am saying is that the decision Saudis made was and is completely and utterly wrong (to my mind).

We pray just like other muslims.. we live like them..

Well you don't pray like Shias for one thing.

but I think u mean that in SA people are more in line with islamic teachings than any other place.. this is normal.. its the holy land and the origin of islam..

No I do not believe that people in SA are more in line with islamic teachings at all. I think they have a version or way of doing things that is frankly wrong wrong wrong. Most of their Ijtihaad decisions are bizzare at BEST.

But really dude, PM me and I'll shoot you my email or something because this is becoming a pretty specific muslim discussion and other people jumping in would just screw it up.

 

[GSG Flash]

I read your other posts.. but what I wanted to make clear is that there is no branch of Islam called "Wahabism".. this is a term that been used alot lately specially by media and they have been trying to link it as much as they could to terrorism.. just to hurt Saudi Arabia.. and believe me alot of people hate Saudi Arabia even in the Arab World..

Would you prefer us to call it Salafism? (as Saudi's prefer to be called) Not that it reall matters because Wahabism and Salafism are practically the same thing. And it's not the media that's using Wahabism to hurt SA or something, it's the rules and laws of wahabism that's hurting itself, I have read up on wahabism and know a great deal about and seriously, a lot of their rulings are barbaric and contradictory. Oh and just because you don't believe in wahabism as a seperate sect of Islam doesn't mean that it isn't, most of the world and Islamic communities do and I tend to agree with that considering their different rules and laws from the other branches.

 

[karasu]

The problem is, there are people who take everything in their religious texts to be literal, and absolute truth. Anyone who suggests a figurative interpretation or flaw in the text is automatically deemed a heretic.

So much for "do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's really the golden rule of all today's religions, but most people don't get it.

I don't take everything the bible says literally nor do I think we should, but the idea of jesus as God is the very foundation of the Christian faith. If he wasn't an aspect of god made flesh, there was no way he could die for the sins of the world. If he couldn't do that, the whole thing is pointless. Walking on water and all of the rest means nothing without the idea of christ paying a price for mankind that we weren't capable of paying ourselves. It's not all about wisdom and being a good person. It should go without saying that you can do that without the idea of a Jesus. The entire point of christ on earth was salvation. The idea of him opening a door for mankind that works alone couldn't gain us entrance to.

 

[Fatghost]

Is that the kind of flawed logic Christians continue to use as material evidence?

How does it follow that if a man commits one evil, unrighteous deed, that he can only commit evil unrighteous deeds?

That is to say, why can't a man lie about been god, while still expressing logical and worthwhile teachings in other areas of knowledge, wisdom and life?

If he lied on purpose, he is not a moral person. A moral person would not resort to deceit and fraud to achieve his purpose.

If he was crazy, then why would we accept anything he said? Jesus said a lot of crazy stuff like loving your neighbour and not caring about material posessions. If he is God, and what he says is true, then it's worth not caring about material possessions since there is something better ahead in the future. If he's crazy, then fuck everyone else, material possessions are probably the best thing to focus on (for one example).

There's the third option: Jesus never said he was God or Son of God. Considering when the Gospels were written, I wouldn't rule it out.

If the Gospels aren't accurate, how can we know anything that Jesus was supposed to have done happened? The anecdotal evidence seems pretty strong that Jesus did say he was God anyway. The gospels were written only a few decades after Jesus' death. If people who actually knew Jesus were willing to be (and often were) killed for saying Jesus was God, why would they lie about it?

 

[AssMan]

Syria is a safe haven for Iraqi Christians.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

If he was crazy, then why would we accept anything he said? Jesus said a lot of crazy stuff like loving your neighbour and not caring about material posessions. If he is God, and what he says is true, then it's worth not caring about material possessions since there is something better ahead in the future. If he's crazy, then fuck everyone else, material possessions are probably the best thing to focus on (for one example).

A good friend of mine has utterly loony beliefs about humans having been created by space aliens. He's otherwise very intelligent, much smarter than me, and has great insight into many topics. On 99% of subjects I put great stock in his opinions and advice. But his (sincerely held!) ideas about aliens are totally bonkers. Craziness isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

 

[Fatghost]

A good friend of mine has utterly loony beliefs about humans having been created by space aliens. He's otherwise very intelligent, much smarter than me, and has great insight into many topics. On 99% of subjects I put great stock in his opinions and advice. But his (sincerely held!) ideas about aliens are totally bonkers. Craziness isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

It is when everything Jesus said is predicated on his being God. Jesus dying on the cross to pay for the sins of the world depends on him being divine. It's the entire point of Christianity.