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US confirms guards kicked, threw water on, urinated on Koran
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ManDudeChild
Member
GSG Flash said:
That contradiction is part of the problem. People willing to kill over a book. It's a symbol, got that, but you value pages in a book that there are many copies over human life? Nice one.
MetaKnight
Banned
Demoralize your enemy.
And that druggie Hunter Thompson supports piss-ridden behvior, so do I!
And that druggie Hunter Thompson supports piss-ridden behvior, so do I!
Raoul Duke said:Sheesh. I was being sarcastic, please continue with your discussion. I'm finding it to be interesting.
OK then
GaimeGuy said:So, Christians believe that Jesus was always with God and was the word of God... doesn't that make him a prophet/angel? Eh? eh?
Christians believe that Jesus IS God. Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh and is an equal part of God, though a different and whole personality. The Bible is very clear that Jesus is not an angel or a prophet and also states that it was Jesus that created the world.
Right from the beginning of the Gospel of John (Chapter 1)
MetaKnight
Banned
Raoul Duke said:
Don't get angry because I support these actions.
A man who has blown all his options can't afford the luxury of changing his ways. He has to capitalize on whatever he has left, and he can't afford to admit no matter how often he's reminded of it that every day of his life takes him farther and farther down a blind alley . Very few toads in this world are Prince Charmings in disguise.
ManDudeChild said:
Yea I know what you are saying, and if I wasn't Muslim, it wouldn't make sense to me either. I can try to explain but ofcourse I can't ever make you feel the same way I do. Here it is. I believe in God and I really do love God even though I can never see him nor have ever directly talked to him. The Quran is like the greatest gift God has given me, so to see being urinated on would really tick me off.
Now, am I saying I would rather have someone else beaten up instead of the Quran mistreated? No. Im talking about myself.
Teddman, I agree that 9/11 and the Koran incident aren't even remotely on the same level, but there seems to be some common feeling that Americans will not irrationally act out violently to events they find to be horrible. The fact that the events I listed happened after 9/11 disproves this, and absolutely does not justify the hate crimes against innocent people.
The reason I posted the link was to show (and I wasn't targeting you particularily) that there are stupid, stupid people in every part of the world, and not just where the Koran incident-provoked riots took place. Most Muslims will not act out in that violent manner, but if they are disgusted and appalled by what happened in Guantanamo, an American military base, then they have every right to be. We have in this very thread heard a couple of forum members express how much the Koran is important to them, and how urinating on it is unthinkable.
The reason I posted the link was to show (and I wasn't targeting you particularily) that there are stupid, stupid people in every part of the world, and not just where the Koran incident-provoked riots took place. Most Muslims will not act out in that violent manner, but if they are disgusted and appalled by what happened in Guantanamo, an American military base, then they have every right to be. We have in this very thread heard a couple of forum members express how much the Koran is important to them, and how urinating on it is unthinkable.
See, the thing is, when you consider the idea that everyone is made in the image of god, and the interpretation of Jesus being a whole and separate personality from God, well, it basically sounds to me like he's the most important and greatest prophet, not unlike what Muslims believe about Muhammad. (If you look at the legends of Muhammad and Jesus, they are also strikingly similar. Angel appears and tells the mother they will bear a son named Muhammad/Jesus that will save the world, etc, etc.)
To be honest, this conversation is the first I have ever heard of Jesus BEING God, and that it's considered insulting to call Jesus a prophet, from my own discussions with very religious christians I know, religious scholars, and my own research. As far as I know, that's your individual interpretation, or what you seem to think that all Christians believe.
To be honest, this conversation is the first I have ever heard of Jesus BEING God, and that it's considered insulting to call Jesus a prophet, from my own discussions with very religious christians I know, religious scholars, and my own research. As far as I know, that's your individual interpretation, or what you seem to think that all Christians believe.
Smiles and Cries
Member
everytime I read this topic I think Korean
is Quran the same as Koran in some parts?
is Quran the same as Koran in some parts?
GaimeGuy said:
The difference is this: Angels and prophets and people are created. Jesus was not created. He IS god, and has always been god.
I said in an earlier post that all three religions come from the same mythological stock, but all are different and incompatible interpretations. A fitting analogy would be that the same basic processes, inventions, and science is used to make an Xbox and a PS2, but a PS2 game will not work on an Xbox. Islam and Christianity use the same basic myths, but the end product does not work. If you are a muslim and say that Jesus IS god, you are not a very good Muslim. If you are a Christian and say the Koran is a divinely inspired word of God and is true and complete, you are not a very good Christian.
It's not to say that being a prophet is an insult, it is that if Jesus is just a prophet, then he is either crazy or a liar. And Christianity is pretty explicit that Jesus IS god. I think a lot of modern Christians don't like to talk about this because frankly, if you are a Christian, and you believe Jesus is god, you can't be a cultural relativist and say "all religions are equally good paths to God" because Jesus said that isn't true. Jesus said he is the only way to God. So if you are a Christian, you can't say Buddhism or Islam or Hinduism is just as "good" as Christianity, because you can't believe in Christ and do so.
ManDudeChild
Member
RiZ III said:
That I can actually understand with a bit more clarity than before. I think it's great that's how you feel, what with not wanting harm on others. If you're willing to take the beating, then more power to you. Along those lines, it's a shame more aren't like you in that respect to religion and others being hurt in the name of it.
Fatghost28 no offense and i really dont want to get into this argument over the divine nature of Jesus but muslim do not believe that the bible we see today is the bible that was presented originally and has been modified many times. we also believe that jesus never himself claimed to be god, or the son of god, and several verses in the bible u see today even contradict that theory. i dont know it of the top of my head so i might come back to it later tonight (i gtg eat).
u can also say the same about the quran but as muslims we believe it has yet to be proven, and in fact it cant be proven, that the quran has ever been altered and what we see and read today is the exact text that was written down back when it was revealed. one of the reasons is because it was revealed to the prophet and he shared it with his companions and they all memorized it, in fact one of the amazing facts about islam is that manye people memorize the whole quran and it is urged that every quran be published in one lang (arabic) so this way it doesnt vary at all from lang to lang. all qurans in other languages are considered translations and not the real quran itself. 2ndly we believe that so many people memorized the quran and used to recite it so often it is impossible for the text to have been changed or tinkered with.
again i dont mean any offense cause im not here to question anyones beliefs but from a islamic point of view we believe jesus is a prophet and the bible is his book but it has been modified somewhat.
u can also say the same about the quran but as muslims we believe it has yet to be proven, and in fact it cant be proven, that the quran has ever been altered and what we see and read today is the exact text that was written down back when it was revealed. one of the reasons is because it was revealed to the prophet and he shared it with his companions and they all memorized it, in fact one of the amazing facts about islam is that manye people memorize the whole quran and it is urged that every quran be published in one lang (arabic) so this way it doesnt vary at all from lang to lang. all qurans in other languages are considered translations and not the real quran itself. 2ndly we believe that so many people memorized the quran and used to recite it so often it is impossible for the text to have been changed or tinkered with.
again i dont mean any offense cause im not here to question anyones beliefs but from a islamic point of view we believe jesus is a prophet and the bible is his book but it has been modified somewhat.
See, but that's the thing. I don't think that the Koran ever states that Jesus is just merely a prophet.Fatghost28 said:
Anyways, we've gotten seriously off track. My original intent wasn't to say that you can believe in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all at the same time, or anything like that. It's just that they are VERY closely related to one another, and yet most people aren't aware of the similarities and ties between them. Yes, they're fundamentally different from each other in certain ways: that's why they're different religions! But many, many, many values, beliefs, teachings, and religious figures are shared between the three, including the worship of the same God..... oh shit, now we're going to get into an argument of "But Jews don't believe in Jesus, and jesus is god, so they believe in a different deity!" or something.
Hmm...Fatghost28 said:
Living where I do in the US(the south, GA specifically) I have a hard time maintaining respect for Christianity, as I am exposed to the dregs of it continually(Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, crazy fundies etc.). My exposure to Christians is generally along the lines of "Why haven't you accepted the Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour!? There is no other way!" I have read most of the Bible and find it farcical and absurd. Those two things combined have contributed to my lack of respect for Christianity in general and the Bible in particular. It's absurd to have an argument with a person that thinks they are backing their point up with a simple "Because the Bible said so".
On the other hand, I spent two months of my life in a predominantly Muslim country earlier in my life(while I was a "practicing" Buddhist), and had all sorts of interesting, cordial and very intellectually stimulating conversations with Muslims concerning their faith and religion in general. They were very respectful towards other faiths and opinions. I read the Koran, which is shorter than the Bible and far less absurd in my opinion.
So there you go. I'm sure if I lived in Saudi Arabia as a non-Muslim my opinion would be different, but I don't and it isn't if that helps.
Except for the fact that it's historically known that the Christian Bible was written following Jesus' death by his followers over a period of several decades, (same with the Qu'ran, but it's been historically recited and recorded the same way so many times, there's little reason to believe that it's been vastly altered, if at all, from its original state).Boogie said:
Meanwhile, you have the corruption of the catholic church, the reformation, the middle ages, etc, and even changes from the official language of the bible, it's easy to see how information can, and most likely, by all logical means, has, been altered from its original context.
GaimeGuy said:
The Koran does not say Jesus IS god. It's definately very clear that even if Jesus were some kind of extra special person, he is not on the same level as God.
I never disagreed that all three come from the same mythological stock. It's not much of a stretch either to identify all three Gods as the same on the surface...although the deeper theology paints a very different picture.
oh shit, now we're going to get into an argument of "But Jews don't believe in Jesus, and jesus is god, so they believe in a different deity!" or something.
No, Christians generally believe they believe in the same God as the Jews. Most modern Christian theology places the Jews in a special position: they have their own importance to God and they're not "wrong" like other religions are wrong. Now I'd imagine most orthodox Jews would not say that Christians worship the same God as they do...
Fatghost28 said:The Koran does not say Jesus IS god. It's definately very clear that even if Jesus were some kind of extra special person, he is not on the same level as God.
I never disagreed that all three come from the same mythological stock. It's not much of a stretch either to identify all three Gods as the same on the surface...although the deeper theology paints a very different picture.
No, Christians generally believe they believe in the same God as the Jews. Most modern Christian theology places the Jews in a special position: they have their own importance to God and they're not "wrong" like other religions are wrong. Now I'd imagine most orthodox Jews would not say that Christians worship the same God as they do...
Eh, as far as I know, they do. (one of my great aunts is hassidic, and pretty much every rabbi and cantor I've ever met and discussed this with has said that we worship the same God)
Muslims, well, I think there's no debate with them; they definitely believe that Jews and Christians pray to the same god as they do.
Raoul Duke said:
I completely understand where you're coming from. My girlfriend is a Baptist and it drives me crazy that she doesn't "believe" in evolution. That's probably my biggest annoyance.
Also stem cells, cuz I'll probably need some of those one day to live.
I've met and work with some very lovely people who happen to be Muslims. I hope my posts don't come across as anti-muslim, I just get annoyed with all this relativistic nonsense where all religions are all equivalent. I just think it's sloppy and lazy to think so because every religion generally claims to have exclusive truth. Someone is right and the rest are wrong. It's up to everyone to decide for themselves which is which, but picking all of them is pretty fucking lazy in my opinion.
Probably.
You mean Confucianism? :lolNotMSRP said:For anyone who has yet to know about the seven mainstream religions of the world, I recommend these to start off:
Covers Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Confusion, Islam, Judaism, Chrisitianity.
fse
Member
Actually, I believe Muslims acknowledge Jesus as a great teacher like Muhammed (sp?).
They also take about how they must be nice to the believers of the book (christians and jews)
Also, sure the Bible might be banned in S.A but not in all the middle east. There are tons of Christian Arabs out there.
They also take about how they must be nice to the believers of the book (christians and jews)
Also, sure the Bible might be banned in S.A but not in all the middle east. There are tons of Christian Arabs out there.
GaimeGuy said:
Today, Christians believe that they worship the same God as the Jews and explain away the Jews not believing in Jesus as God because it will be Jesus' second coming that will be the Messiah the Jews were promised. It's interesting that Jews by and large think that Christians worship the same God as they do because Christians worship Jesus. It's a very different concept of God. I'd love to know the explanation.
Muslims, well, I think there's no debate with them; they definitely believe that Jews and Christians pray to the same god as they do.
Muslims have the same problem that the Jews have in reconciling the Christian god with their own: again, Christians worship Jesus. Most muslims explain this as Christian texts are incomplete or have been edited/corrupted/misinterpreted and therefore the incompatible parts of Christianity are the result of this flaw.
My theory on the different religions of the world is that God purposely set up all these different religions as kind of a test, to help us seek spiritual truth and peace with each other through conflict with each other.
Anyways, there's only three things that I really firmly believe in, that I have no doubt on, that I consider there HAS to be.
#1: There is a God
#2: There is an afterlife
#3: Everyone goes to the afterlife when they die.
Anyways, there's only three things that I really firmly believe in, that I have no doubt on, that I consider there HAS to be.
#1: There is a God
#2: There is an afterlife
#3: Everyone goes to the afterlife when they die.
f_elz said:
I didn't mean to suggest "all" the Middle East. But here's another link. Egypt and Iran aren't too nice to Christians either. Go ahead, keep backpeddling.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_pers.htm
f_elz said:
the people of the book, is how jews and christians are reffered to as in the Quran and they are to be treated with respect and honor. not saying it happens but yeah thats whats supposed to be. saudia arabia is run by nuts....talk about being intolerant to other religions...it is very intolerant to its own. so u cant use that as a sole example, and while im sure there are other examples of wrong doing to christians and jews especially, there are christian arabs and the BIBLE is not banned in the middle east.
GaimeGuy said:
So essentially, all the religions are there to mislead people?
Like I said in a previous post, all religions claim exclusive truth. So you have to reject all religions to pass the test!
There are many modern movements in most religions towards a form of religious relativism (all religions are equally valid paths to god, all teach the same basic concepts, all have the same share in the truth, etc.) but these movements have to cut away a lot of the original theology to reach this point.
Fatghost28 said:
It's probably something like the Christians believe, but from the Jewish perspective.
I think I recall one rabbi telling me "Christians believe that Jesus is the messiah, while we believe that we don't know who the messiah will be. Nevertheless, we worship the same higher power."
GaimeGuy said:
Yeah, but that's a form of religious relativism isn't it?
I'm not saying that it is wrong either, but from a strict theological perspective it's not entirely accurate, given that the Messiah in Judaism is not the same as God, while in Christianity the Messiah IS God.effzee said:
Look, it doesn't matter if they're "supposed" to treat them with respect and honour, if they don't.
Christians are supposed to love thy neighbour, and enemy, but they catch a lot of flack on GAF because they don't (and perhaps rightly so).
So the same flack should go to those muslims who don't practice what they preach. You can't excuse the actions of these governments just by saying "well, yeah, but they're not supposed to do that".
Fatghost28 said:Yeah, but that's a form of religious relativism isn't it?
Most Jews, as far as I know, don't take the Tanach (Torah, Nviim (n-vee-eem), Ktuviim (Kih-too-veem), the Jewish Bible. The Torah, book of judges, and book of writings.) literally, but take more figurative interpretations, at least in comparison to Christianity and Islam.
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