His post doesn't seem to say understanding has no value or use. He seems to be speaking of anger and sorrow. But that of course is just my interpretation of his words.
US jobs gap between young and old is widest ever
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His post doesn't seem to say understanding has no value or use. He seems to be speaking of anger and sorrow. But that of course is just my interpretation of his words.
I tend to agree. People give the Boomers as a whole a lot of shit, but really at this point we aren't changing the past. Not all of them share some monolithic viewpoint or perspective, either. Many are sympathetic to the issues because more and more of them are winding up in the same spot as the youth.
We've identified a lot of the problems we're facing, so let's focus on fixing them instead of dividing everything into who deserves the most blame.
My point was that identifying yourself as a victim of history is usually not productive. Talking about a problem helps.
Folks born in the 1950's lived in a period of great changes in the world. Aside from the oil crisis in 1973, most of their economic rewards were steady and increasing each year. Debt was encouraged since a larger income in the future was promised. And it worked until 2008.
Thanks for helping me understand your POV.
Captain Sparrow
Banned
So what is this trying to say? This can either be there are no jobs for them, they have too much pride for certain jobs, or they choose not to work. Which one are we assuming it is again?
Another interesting spin to make a more sensationalist story. While we're at it, let's note that women and minorities are making less too. Because we all know wages skyrocketed since the 2008 economy crash.
This is very subjective.
Look, I understand that things are bad for the current generation coming out of college. It's bad for a lot of people. Does anyone honestly expect the data to be even across newly graduated and experienced workers? That's a ridiculous expectation.
I just think the expectations for these students are way too high. They are led to believe that if they graduate in law, they will start at $70,000+ a year. That is simply not the case. The boomers would work at the local market, and not think twice about it. Lots of our kids these days are too good for such a job. Today's students need to be taught about working their way to the top instead of starting at the top.
discoalucard
i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
Perhaps you'd like to explain how working at the local market will eventually end up with them making $70,000 a year.
Right, cause that is exactly what I said. Rather than be obtuse about it, why don't you actually look at everything I wrote?
.la1n
Member
False, they are depressing everywhere :|
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Well yeah it's most certainly the latter. It's not like there was some genetic deficiency that affected everyone that was born shortly after WWII.
Bagboy-->Produce-->Some education-->Assist Mgr--->Some more education--->Manager--->Some more education--->District Manager---->Again with the education---->Regional Manager---->etc
Not easy, not impossible.
Myself= high school, then working on a shrimp boat for two years, then construction and eventually finish carpentry, then nursing school for 3 years (cleaned offices at night while going to school) , making around $70,000 year 12 years after graduating from high school..
Could you rephrase your point or expand on it? I am not picking up on it. Apologies.
slidewinder
Banned
JORMBO
Darkness no more
My buddy is doing that. Worked hard in the bakery for a year, did a year as a front end manager, then a year managing grocery and now he's overnight manager. He makes $50k after 4 years (more then me with my IT degree) and his next step up is $60k+.
He does work a lot of extra hours and odd shifts though. Not too shabby for someone with no experience and no college.
Captain Sparrow
Banned
I'm going to challenge you that all that education isn't completely necessary. I would say that a high school degree + associates or bachelors is plenty.
Well it's already been hit on, but here's some of my anecdotal evidence that I believe has some weight to it. I did two interviews recently, one that worked fast food and one that was fresh out of college with a degree. The person with the degree had no prior work experience, could not answer any questions correctly, and overall just did not have the ability to apply what they learned into the real world. The next was a kid that was still going to school, but in fast food. He started as a part time worker, and worked his way up to assistant manager. While it's not a prestigious job, he was able to show me how he motivated people, met goals, and managed finances with RESULTS. Still, he isn't making "$70k", but he is on that path.
I'm not saying that this one experience is law. However, I strongly believe you have to start early, show motivation, gain valuable skills, make a difference, and make strong partnerships while NEVER burning bridges. I can't even count how many times I've seen that formula work. Out of everyone I went to high school and elementary school with, I only know a very few who got the job, let alone the pay they wanted. Of course, it is never their fault though.
Certainly not impossible, but consider: only so many bagboys get promoted to produce, and from there, there can only be so many assistant managers, and even further, if your local market doesn't hire in its managers from the outside, there can be only one manager, out of how many bagboys work at the local market? And how many managers can really get to be district manager? Certainly not all of them. And Regional manager? Only one of those~ And guess what, the new Regional manager that was just announced is a CFO's nephew who just got his MBA from Ivy League University, much nicer than your associate degree from County Community College and even your BBA from America State University.
This is the system that's in place, a system of knowing people, luck, and just a little bit of actual effort. This isn't a meritocratic system, this is a system that rewards gaining money and power by whatever means necessary, even at the detriment and denigration of others. If you go and work at, say, a local walmart, there's next to NO chance of advancement, your pay is shite, and they do their damnedest to fleece you out of benefits, sometimes illegally. This is similar, though usually less aggressive, at retail places all over the country, including and especially large chain grocers. Remember, only a few people can become district manager out of thousands and thousands of bagboys who work at a chain grocer every day and never leave the bagboy position, despite being earnest, hard workers. How do you reconcile those odds?
OK, how about going to school while you are a bagboy and getting training in another field? A lot of people work menial jobs while going to school. I did it. I had help with the tuition from the state and federal governments.
I worked extra days a a state mental hospital as a RN a year ago. It was not hard labor, but dealing with schizophrenic and bipolar patients can be frustrating.
The MHT's (mental health technicians) at this hospital were basically paid minimum wage. About 50% of them were going to school at the time looking to improve their skills. About 30% were working two jobs to pay the bills. And 20% were basically there because they were happy making minimum wage and had no ambition to do anything else.
I have run into some of the ones who were going to school. They have gotten jobs or are doing clinical rotations where I work. A lot of these are people who had to get a GED because they dropped out of high school. Now they have a nursing license, radiology tech certification, physical therapy license, etc.
Motivation and adaptation.
speculawyer
Member
Forget 'class warfare', we will soon have 'age warfare'. Most of the wealth is held by old people AND most of the government social programs (medicare and social security) go to old people. Young people are eventually going to revolt against this as they are getting squeezed out. The were born an unfortunate time in history.
But logically wouldn't the older generation always have more wealth than the younger? And so the complaint then is the government programs ( Soc Sec & Medicare ). As for Soc Sec the benefits you received were never tied to the amount you put into the system so that was doomed from the start. Because the shift in demographics ( may not be the right word ) were destine to change.
I can't speak for Medicare but I think it's similar to Soc Sec ( no ties to amount put into the system vs amount taken out ), but that is a huge ASSumption.
Thoughts Speculayer?
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
This has always been the case. People in their 50s and 60s rule the world and control the vast majority of the wealth and political power. It's not going to change, well...ever.
Dam right I already feel like part of this lost generation.
I would like to see some data on young people's job employment rates in trades and similar fields that do require specialized training and education, but not 4 year college degrees. It seems to me that with the huge push for everyone to go to a 4 year school there could be a lack of people to fill those jobs now or in the future as people begin to retire.
speculawyer
Member
mbmonk said:
Yes, but not to this degree. The older generation grew up during a period of rapid growth. They bought houses for $20K that are now worth $500K. Young people that bought a house for $400K a few years back is lucky if it is still worth $400K. And they are struggling to find jobs.
Certainly the older generation always holds more money . . . but the difference now is much bigger.
The main problem is the rise of the corporate world and the diminishing of the small business world.
If your family had a shop on Cherry Street, the wealth it created was kept in the community. Dad would die and it would be passed on to the new generation.
Now that shop on Cherry Street is closed because Walmart undercut the prices and made it unprofitable. Once it closed, Walmart raised the prices back up and now sends the wealth to be handled by JP Morgan or Wells Fargo.
That piece of local wealth is now gone and the family is dependent on Walmart.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
are you not paying attention? almost every entry level position worth anything now asks for years of experience to even get an interview. how are people supposed to work their way up when they cant find jobs?
These are lean times, business can be discriminating. When things start picking up, the requirements for new hires will be dropped down. Just bad timing.
He is saying to go ahead and take a job if you find it, even if it means hurting your dignity for a while. At least you will have some income.
2 years from now the unemployment rate could be down to 6-7% which means increased business activity which means more employment opportunities opening up.
2 years is only 2.8% of your life if you live to be 70 years old.
Oh totally. Someone has to be the bagboy, and only a couple decades ago, that was a high schooler who wanted some damned pocket money! Hell, I've been working menial jobs since High School. I was a barista for my first job my junior year of HS, and then I was a car garage attendant for a summer job before college, and then I was a security officer for a NYC SoHo Patagonia, for another summer, and then I couldn't get another job until I got a job as a live sound engineer from a friend of the family at the college I currently go to.
And here's the thing, I've never been required to support myself through my work. Even when I was working those summer jobs, though, I was never given more than 30 hours a week. And in those 20-25 hour weeks, I was only being paid $0.75 over minimum wage. And that was 8 dollars an hour after putting out $250 for a course, and even then I only got the security job because I was the first one there. I have not been able to get a security job since. Because I've thankfully been able to live with my parents, I've had the luxury of focusing on my studies. Not everyone has that. I know people who are at school on a sports scholarship, and on top of playing sports for tuition and keeping up in class, they work two jobs to just support living.
And even then, they're not guaranteed a good job when they get out because they're working menial dead-end jobs, the only jobs that would take them, and because they can't afford to take an unpaid internship, they miss out on alot of really valuable potential career experience because they can't afford it.
You see, this isn't about menial jobs, this is about potential career advancement through traditional means, ie university. Most people are fine with menial jobs as long as there's something there that they know will advance their careers and ambitions, but there's no level of security in education, and there's no level of security in experience either. There are no rules because they've all been broken. It's not like anyone is particularly expecting it to be, but this shit isn't consistent or fair, and people acting like it is, like "if you only work hard enough, you'll make it in life!" is completely disingenuous to the actual environment. It's a flat out lie.
Interesting. First thank you for the reply.
Sadly I have something I have to take care of and can't dig in much deeper. I will leave you with this question, and maybe later this weekend I can check to see if you responded.
A decline in house values should effect both older home owners as well as younger ones. So if the younger persons house has went down in value so has the older one's ( caveat all real estate is local ). So I am not seeing how that is a determining factor. I could just be failing to extract your point out of the sentence correctly.
EDIT: If the same person invested his $20k in the stock market instead of the house he would still have a significant increase in his investment. So whether he put it in the house or the stock market he would still get growth out of it.
Regardless take care and thank you.
slidewinder
Banned
You can't protect shit; it never works in the long term. In the long term, what works is cutting the throats of the wealthy and letting everybody else drink their blood.
That makes sense and actually makes me feel a bit better. I like to think that when I'm 40 and hopefully have a stable job I'll be happy and think back about how I had to struggle to make out well. Just sucks that I'm struggling now and living through it.
Hmm I like your ideas sir, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
ThisWreckage
Banned
My friends and I have completely given up on anything remotely resembling a productive day. Most of us just sit around and drink in between filling out job applications that we know we won't get.
While I would also love to see this, it's never going to happen. You get what you pay for with offshoring and corporate America has not figured this out yet.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
and im saying even finding a job that hurts your dignity isnt exactly easy right now. even mcdonalds gets tons of apps for entry level work. if you really think this economy is going to recover i dunno what to say to you
I lack the vocabulary to adequately express my contempt for this practice.
It is recovering.You're at ground zero so you have the worse view in the house.
Listen to some economic podcasts, the neutral ones are all saying they are optimistic but cautious.
Several months of positive jobs growth. One economist said they did an analysis of the reported unemployed and compared them to some surveys asking the general public about how many were working and if they were full or part time. The drop in the unemployment rate was real and not people dropping off the unemployment rolls.
I'd be willing to bet the IRS reports increased amounts of withholding taxes for the last 12 months.
Hang in there, it is miserable being broke, and feeling like no wants you. Been there and done that, luckily for only a few months a long time ago. I would hire you.
These words have been the bane of my job searching since I graduated from college four years ago.
This brings up something else I wanted to mention. If we're going to talk about entitlement, then let's talk about the sense of entitlement displayed by employers. The requirements I've seen listed for a lot jobs are simply absurd. You don't need to hire rocket scientists and people with masters degrees for regular work. The standards are nuts.
I'm very fortunate in that I entered the workforce without a college degree during an extremely hot era. Because of that I now carry 16 years of substantial experience, which gets me by degree requirements for many jobs... but not all. Furthermore, if I ever wanted to move into management, then the degree thing becomes a real problem. But that's not my point, my point is that the current trend of requiring the moon and refusing to bring in good people at an entry level is beyond retarded.
When I do candidate screens and interviews I hardly get into the technical quiz stuff. I'm way more interested in getting a feel for aptitude, attitude, personality, etc. That information is far more useful to me than if you've memorized 10 steps to configuring something in Exchange.
The economy has been recovering, just at a slow pace. What makes you think it won't recover? What signs out there show that we're not recovering?
It's definitely tough cause there are so many people with experience who are looking at the same jobs. All I can really say is that if you are in school, get an internship or get a job in the field you are going to and get that experience. You might argue that internship is slavery and that the only one benefiting is the business all you want, but the bottom line is that you'll get the experience you need from that internship and it'll really help you when you start applying for jobs.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
employers are forcing their employees to be more and more efficient, not hiring while making record profits. Some manufacturing may come back to the us but not fast enough. We also have more debt bubbles about to pop and increases automation makes human workers useless
It's so short sighted of corporations though sure they look for revenue growth in Asia but what happens when domestic spending goes down the shitter.
You can only make so much money abroad before you hurt your home country's economy.
What's the point of making so much money you hoard it like crazy aka Apple? Shouldn't companies hire as many people as possible like how Japanese companies would?
AdventureRacing
Member
This is the simplest way for me to think of it. Picture 2 different people buying houses. This is how the price of their houses went:
20K in 1970 - 500K in 2000 to 400K-500K in 2012.
500K in the 2000s to 400-500K in 2012.
Both have recently had their house price either stabilise or drop but i wouldn't call the 2 situations comparable.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
the corporate bonus structure basically makes it impossible for companies not to be short sighted
But if the person in 1970 invested in the stock market, instead of the house, he would probably have closer to $500K due to compound interest over the 40 year time period. So to compare 20K invested for 40 years to $400k 10 years isn't really fair. We are omitting 30 years of possible growth.
This discussions always depend on the market the house is in but these number for a house for a young person ( $400k - 500k) are almost absurd. You would have to be making a fairly high salary for that to be even a possibility. And most young folks aren't making that type money coming out of college. If you are you probably aren't associating with the 'revolution' crowd.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Wages haven't increased since the 1970s. Housing prices have. That is the point he is making.
Just so we're clear, american corporations are making more profit now than they ever have in history. These are lean times, for the average citizen. It's disingenuous to imply that the conditions cited in articles such as this one are because business are having a rough time in the modern economy.
AppleSmack
Banned
I hope this data doesn't hold in the Engineering field. From what I've read about employment outlook in Electrical Engineering, I shouldn't have much trouble finding employment.
Who are you referring to when you say he? Speculawyer or AdventureRacing?
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