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[Famassu]

All great points. I could live with those alternatives when cooking at home, no problem.

But it is not so easy to ask someone else, someone who loves to cook and talks about how they are sad that they cannot continue the traditional recipes passed down to them by their now departed grandparents, someone who has agreed to raise any future kids in a meat- and fish-free household, to make the same "sacrifice". Apart from tofu, almost none of those things are available in shops in my country, which means importing from the US and other countries, doubling the price in the process, so it is a hard sell. Also, my gf says that while the vegan foods we eat in restaurants and I have made for her are delicious, they are 'not the same thing' as the original. Perhaps she means 'not as good', but I guess that is where we fundamentally differ. To me, taste isn't the only important factor; for her, it is pretty much the only relevant one (except cost and ease of procurement, I suppose).

Well, you COULD always ask from the kind of smaller local stores or chains or importers who are focused on some organic/environmentally friendlier food if they'd be willing to start offering those ingredients. Another possibility is to reach out to the vegan/vegetarian community near you/in the city you live in. If there are enough of your kind there, you could start importing stuff in bulk yourselves and that way save a lot with the delivery costs. Have some monthly "everyone send their order by e-mail/to a facebook group/whatever by the XXth of the month and then someone responsible for it puts up the order after everyone has paid their share" thing. Just having 10 people making orders would reduce delivery costs to be almost nothing. Once a month should probably be enough since stuff like kala namak is something that you only use, like, 1 teaspoon per recipe/batch of food and chickpea/gram flour is something that can easily last a month if you order ~1-2kgs of it, unless you make something out of it everyday.

What kind of "traditional foods" are we talking about, in case of your gf? Some dishes with chicken in some kind of marinade or more special stuff like liver and bone marrow?

Edit: Forgot to mention that stuff which doesn't need to have animal products in often does here. For example, it is almost impossible to find vegan bread in supermarkets.

Make your own bread. It only takes a few minutes to ready some simple bun dough (water or vegan cream, 2-3 different kinds of flours, salt, yeast of some kind, maybe some small seeds and that's pretty much it) and after letting it rise for a while it only takes a few minutes to roll some buns and put them in the oven.

 

[Krauser Kat]

anyone have a killer pancake recipe. For months i have been trying to make pancakes again and they always end up raw in the middle or burnt. Or they taste like bananas which is awesome every once in awhile, but i like pancakes more often than that.

 

[trab pu kcip]

anyone have a killer pancake recipe. For months i have been trying to make pancakes again and they always end up raw in the middle or burnt. Or they taste like bananas which is awesome every once in awhile, but i like pancakes more often than that.

I usually just mix flour, milk and sugar and it works. it's best to slowly raise the heat. I also heard good stuff about pouring in a bit of soda or sparkling water to make it fluffier.
+ I found that almond and/or coconut milk add the best taste

 

[matthewwhatever]

Pancakes are the one thing I always feel confident making!

1 cup flour
1 cup oats
Pinch of salt
Tablespoon of baking powder
Tablespoon of cinnamon
However many chocolate chips and blueberries you want
1.5 cups (approx) of your preferred milk substitute
Tablespoon or so of vanilla

Also, coconut oil on the pan to prevent them from getting stuck on.

I should also add that they're not exactly light and fluffy, but as far as I'm concerned they're delicious.

 

[BrokenIcarus]

Does anyone have experience with making their own vegan ice cream?
We have an ice cream maker which we used to use with cow milk and whipped cream.

Does Oatmilk + Soycream work in that regard?

 

[MrT]

On the subject of ice cream, I made some the other day using bananas, coconut milk, choc chips and vanilla, tastes great but it freezes totally solid. Anyone got any tips for making ice cream that's scoopable? I have to cut mine with a aharp knife :/

 

[ricki42]

anyone have a killer pancake recipe. For months i have been trying to make pancakes again and they always end up raw in the middle or burnt. Or they taste like bananas which is awesome every once in awhile, but i like pancakes more often than that.

I haven't made pancakes in a while, but I think I once made some that were just buckwheat flour, salt, and water and that were fantastic (if you like the taste of buckwheat). The buckwheat gets kind of slimy when you soak it in water for a bit, which gives an egg-like consistency. I don't remember if I used any backing powder, but I think I didn't.
Maybe I should buy some buckwheat flour and do some tests...

 

[Krauser Kat]

i have made buckwheat pancakes before. im looking for fluffy pancakes. I think i will just have to make a whole bunch of mixes and try it out

 

[eyeball_kid]

But it is not so easy to ask someone else, someone who loves to cook and talks about how they are sad that they cannot continue the traditional recipes passed down to them by their now departed grandparents, someone who has agreed to raise any future kids in a meat- and fish-free household, to make the same "sacrifice". Apart from tofu, almost none of those things are available in shops in my country, which means importing from the US and other countries, doubling the price in the process, so it is a hard sell. Also, my gf says that while the vegan foods we eat in restaurants and I have made for her are delicious, they are 'not the same thing' as the original. Perhaps she means 'not as good', but I guess that is where we fundamentally differ. To me, taste isn't the only important factor; for her, it is pretty much the only relevant one (except cost and ease of procurement, I suppose).

Edit: Forgot to mention that stuff which doesn't need to have animal products in often does here. For example, it is almost impossible to find vegan bread in supermarkets.

So the veg/vegan restaurants there have to import most of their ingredients? That seems rather expensive!

I understand what you mean. I think when someone is used to the taste of real eggs and butter, it's hard for them to say that a substitute for those flavors is better, and if they don't care about the ethical issues or health benefits then there's not much reason for them to change. I guess if you want to stay with this woman, then perhaps you can come to some sort of compromise with her, like half the dishes at home are vegan and half aren't.

 

[trab pu kcip]

i have made buckwheat pancakes before. im looking for fluffy pancakes. I think i will just have to make a whole bunch of mixes and try it out

then definitely add a sparkling liquid..also baking powder can't hurt..but I think that has been suggested already too.

 

[dude]

i have made buckwheat pancakes before. im looking for fluffy pancakes. I think i will just have to make a whole bunch of mixes and try it out

OK, here's my pancake recipe. It's the favorite one I've found after trying many different things. And it's also so simple is stupid.

1 cup flour
1 cup Soy milk
1 tbs vanilla extract
1 Tbs sugar
1/2 tbs salt
1 tbs baking powder
1/1 tbs baking soda
2 Tbs oil (I use coconut oil, but any oil will do really.)

That's it.

 

[Famassu]

anyone have a killer pancake recipe. For months i have been trying to make pancakes again and they always end up raw in the middle or burnt. Or they taste like bananas which is awesome every once in awhile, but i like pancakes more often than that.

You can try using whipped aquafaba. The "No Egg" egg replacement powder also helps with making vegan pancakes fluffier, if you don't have aquafaba.

Here's one simple aquafaba pancake recipe I found, the blog claims this is fluffier than "normal" pancakes with eggs and all, but I haven't tested it myself.

6 tablespoons aquafaba
3 dl vegetable milk
2,5 dl wheat flour
1 teaspoon of vanilla sugar
2 tablespoons rapeseed oil


Whip the aquafaba into foam, mix in most of the milk, then the flour & sugar. Then mix the rest of the milk & oil until it's evenly mixed. The recipe I found didn't have salt, but I'd maybe add a pinch of salt to bring out some more flavor? Then proceed as usual.

 

[ngower]

For some lab results back and everything is fine except I have super low Vitamin D levels. Takes a supplement if you're not already!

Also, this pancake recipe is the only pancake recipe you'll ever need: http://www.theppk.com/2011/12/puffy-pillow-pancakes/

 

[Krauser Kat]

thanks for all the tips.

i just realized the egg sub i used wasnt supposed to be for baking, it was an egg flavor sub used for making egg coated things in baking or frying, thankfully i also have the baking sub and i will open it and try my luck again, if not ill actually go and get some whole flax seeds.


i also have some of that Follow your heart egg stuff and its okay but scrambled eggs was always more about the easiness/benefit of all the protein you get from eggs and this shit basically salt and starch.

I would rather make silken tofu and garbanzo flour scramble that is actually protein and tastes quite similar.

I did it!!
Thanks to everyone. They were fucking perfect.
Used the PPK recipe and switched out flax for 1 tsp of this other egg replace i have.

 

[Surfinn]

Going to see Dr. Greger (How Not to Die/Nutritionfacts.org) speak today with my GF. Pretty excited.

 

[riotous]

My wife just let me know Ben and Jerry's parent company does animal testing.

Thought I'd let the Vegan thread know in case that bothers you enough to where you'd want to avoid their new non-dairy products.

 

[Kinokou]

General cooking question: Why is it so that you should soak and drain wakame prior to adding it to a dish? Googlefu is failing me, but hopefully that means I didn't just have my last meal.

Edit: and by dish, I mean soup.

Hm, if you want it really smooth you could always throw it in a blender or use an immersion blender. I like to make this one sort of chunky, though: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/...up-parsley-garlic-lemon-gremolata-recipe.html

i blend all my soups that i want creamy or smooth. Its more dishes but its soo creamy. Minimalist Baker is my waifu and she makes a damn good Asparagus Pea soup (sounds hilarious).
http://minimalistbaker.com/creamy-asparagus-and-pea-soup/

I want to avoid buying any extra equipment, so I'll make myself used to my first results.

 

[FalconLunch]

General cooking question: Why is it so that you should soak and drain wakame prior to adding it to a dish? Googlefu is failing me, but hopefully that means I didn't just have my last meal.

Edit: and by dish, I mean soup.

I believe it's just to reduce the saltiness of the wakame so it doesn't overpower the dish. I don't think it will hurt you

 

[Famassu]

So... Tempeh. Can one make it from scratch (without it taking forever and/or needing special equipment/ingredients) or is it one of those things that you basically have to buy from the store? I've never eaten it, but I'd like to try making it. I have some soybeans and was wondering what to do with them. Would like to try tempeh if it's not impossible to do so at home.

 

[derFeef]

Tempeh is difficult to make I think, don't you need a dehydrator or at least it's recommended to make? Preparing tempeh is almost as hard, it never tasted good when we tried it, although we have eaten very good tempeh, especially fried tempeh.

 

[eyeball_kid]

So... Tempeh. Can one make it from scratch (without it taking forever and/or needing special equipment/ingredients) or is it one of those things that you basically have to buy from the store? I've never eaten it, but I'd like to try making it. I have some soybeans and was wondering what to do with them. Would like to try tempeh if it's not impossible to do so at home.

I would suggest buying some store-bought tempeh first before making your own, so that you have a base flavor to go by. I use Lightlife plain tempeh. I've basically replaced most of my tofu in dishes with tempeh; since it's a more fermented form of tofu, it digests easier. I also like the slightly nutty taste.

I looked up how to make it in a cookbook I have, and apparently you have to take dried soybeans, boil them, let them set in water for 24 hours, then put in a culture to start the fermentation process. There's places online that sell the starter kit. I've never made it myself, but would like to.

 

[yonder]

Going to see Dr. Greger (How Not to Die/Nutritionfacts.org) speak today with my GF. Pretty excited.

Very jealous. How was it?

Also, I've been using this deodorant for the past few weeks and despite my initial skepticism I really like it. I think I've finally found my new go-to vegan deodorant.

It stops all smell (verified by my girlfriend anyway) even when I'm biking, so I'm sticking by it. It usually last around 10 hours or so.

I also tried this one by Bulldog:

Unfortunately, this one is pretty shit. It actually makes me smell worse after a while, although it smells awesome at first. Really disappointed. Bulldog's other stuff is really great, however, and I can totally recommend it. Love their body lotion for example, and it's nice to have a vegan skincare brand that doesn't scream ALL NATURAL, ORGANIC, NON-GMO!! etc.

If you guys have any skincare recommendations I'd love to hear them

 

[Surfinn]

Very jealous. How was it?

Also, I've been using this deodorant for the past few weeks and despite my initial skepticism I really like it. I think I've finally found my new go-to vegan deodorant.

It stops all smell (verified by my girlfriend anyway) even when I'm biking, so I'm sticking by it. It usually last around 10 hours or so.

I also tried this one by Bulldog:

Unfortunately, this one is pretty shit. It actually makes me smell worse after a while, although it smells awesome at first. Really disappointed. Bulldog's other stuff is really great, however, and I can totally recommend it. Love their body lotion for example, and it's nice to have a vegan skincare brand that doesn't scream ALL NATURAL, ORGANIC, NON-GMO!! etc.

If you guys have any skincare recommendations I'd love to hear them

Thanks for the info, been looking for a good deodorant.

Dr. Greger was awesome. Very nice guy; before his lecture, we went up and got my GF's book signed. First thing he says to us was "WHAT UP?" haha. He even gave us some personal info if we have questions. Lecture was super interesting and informative. He compares the public's current dietary knowledge to what people knew about smoking in the 1940s and how everyone KNEW smoking was good for you (ie weight loss, stress relief); brands were even recommended by doctors. The lecture itself was recorded, so it may even be on YouTube. I'll try to find it.

Pretty damning evidence to suggest the typical western diet needs to be abandoned and replaced with a vegan diet.

At this point, I'm all in. Food tastes good, were losing weight, feeling good.

 

[yonder]

Thanks for the info, been looking for a good deodorant.

Dr. Greger was awesome. Very nice guy; before his lecture, we went up and got my GF's book signed. First thing he says to us was "WHAT UP?" haha. He even gave us some personal info if we have questions. Lecture was super interesting and informative. He compares the public's current dietary knowledge to what people knew about smoking in the 1940s and how everyone KNEW smoking was good for you (ie weight loss, stress relief); brands were even recommended by doctors. The lecture itself was recorded, so it may even be on YouTube. I'll try to find it.

Pretty damning evidence to suggest the typical western diet needs to be abandoned and replaced with a vegan diet.

At this point, I'm all in. Food tastes good, were losing weight, feeling good.

Sounds cool! Gimme a link if you can find it

Also, great to hear you're doing good! I'm only nine months in at this point, but I'm still slowly losing weight and getting stronger. I'm really motivated to get stronger/more fit to prove to the people around me that vegans aren't weak and scrawny. So far so good.

 

[-KRS-]

I'm not vegan (or even vegetarian), but the restaurant I used to work at which closed down recently had vegan burgers made out of a mix of beans that were pretty nice.
A lot of vegan customers said it was the best vegan burger they had tried. So I thought I'd share the recipe. Hopefully the chef won't kill me!

The measurements won't be exact since it'll depend on how much you make. We made large batches of 60-80 patties at a time but I'll write the recipe so it's scalable.

Ingredients:
2 parts chickpeas
2 parts butter beans
1 part kidney beans
Onion
Sunflower kernels
Line seeds
Garlic
Vegetable bouillon powder
A little bit of Sriracha chili sauce or similar
Corn starch

Rinse the beans and chickpeas.
Since the chickpeas are a bit harder than the beans and therefore won't be easily mashable with your hands, I usually blend them a little bit. But don't blend them too much. You still want pieces of them in the batter. It's ok if there are some whole peas as well.
Put all the beans in a bowl with the chickpeas and work them into a batter. The butter beans especially will become mashed since they're so soft. Don't work it too much though, since there should be some pieces of the other beans here and there in the batter.
Mix in the vegetable bouillon powder to taste. I use a fair amount of it since it'll be the main thing that adds taste. You could also add some black pepper if you want, although I add this when I fry them. Since the bouillon powder already has salt in it you won't need any more of that.
Now add in sliced onion, pressed garlic, sriracha, sunflower kernels and line seeds and mix it all together. How much you use is up to you, but I tend to have quite a bit of the seeds and kernels for an added crunch.
When you're happy with the taste add in a fair amount of corn starch until the batter becomes more firm. This is to ensure it stays together well and won't fall apart when you fry them. You'll probably want to add more than you think... at least I used to add too little in the beginning.
Now you can make patties out of the batter. I usually do this on a plastic or metal surface which I then put in the freezer. You can of course cook them immediately without freezing as well.
Once they're frozen take them out and put the patties in a bread bag or plastic container and keep them in the freezer until needed.
To cook them just fry them in a pan on medium heat until they get a bit of color. Make sure they're heated all the way through if you make the patties thick. Oh and they'll absorb quite a bit of moisture so add oil as needed while frying.

That's it!
Obviously you can experiment with this quite a bit like adding some other spices, or other beans etc. One time we didn't have sunflower kernels for example so we used pumpkin seeds instead. I like black beans so sometimes I add one part of that.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I'm not vegan (or even vegetarian), but the restaurant I used to work at which closed down recently had vegan burgers made out of a mix of beans that were pretty nice.
A lot of vegan customers said it was the best vegan burger they had tried. So I thought I'd share the recipe. Hopefully the chef won't kill me!

The measurements won't be exact since it'll depend on how much you make. We made large batches of 60-80 patties at a time but I'll write the recipe so it's scalable.

Ingredients:
2 parts chickpeas
2 parts butter beans
1 part kidney beans
Onion
Sunflower kernels
Line seeds
Garlic
Vegetable bouillon powder
A little bit of Sriracha chili sauce or similar
Corn starch

Rinse the beans and chickpeas.
Since the chickpeas are a bit harder than the beans and therefore won't be easily mashable with your hands, I usually blend them a little bit. But don't blend them too much. You still want pieces of them in the batter. It's ok if there are some whole peas as well.
Put all the beans in a bowl with the chickpeas and work them into a batter. The butter beans especially will become mashed since they're so soft. Don't work it too much though, since there should be some pieces of the other beans here and there in the batter.
Mix in the vegetable bouillon powder to taste. I use a fair amount of it since it'll be the main thing that adds taste. You could also add some black pepper if you want, although I add this when I fry them. Since the bouillon powder already has salt in it you won't need any more of that.
Now add in sliced onion, pressed garlic, sriracha, sunflower kernels and line seeds and mix it all together. How much you use is up to you, but I tend to have quite a bit of the seeds and kernels for an added crunch.
When you're happy with the taste add in a fair amount of corn starch until the batter becomes more firm. This is to ensure it stays together well and won't fall apart when you fry them. You'll probably want to add more than you think... at least I used to add too little in the beginning.
Now you can make patties out of the batter. I usually do this on a plastic or metal surface which I then put in the freezer. You can of course cook them immediately without freezing as well.
Once they're frozen take them out and put the patties in a bread bag or plastic container and keep them in the freezer until needed.
To cook them just fry them in a pan on medium heat until they get a bit of color. Make sure they're heated all the way through if you make the patties thick. Oh and they'll absorb quite a bit of moisture so add oil as needed while frying.

That's it!
Obviously you can experiment with this quite a bit like adding some other spices, or other beans etc. One time we didn't have sunflower kernels for example so we used pumpkin seeds instead. I like black beans so sometimes I add one part of that.

Cool, thanks for the recipe.

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

Been a vegetarian, sometimes vegan for almost 11 years now, been thinking a lot about why I am one and what I choose to eat, I've actually decided to become an ethically sourced omnivore. I'm starting to only eat meat/fish that is overpopulating and destroying environments (right now alaskan salmon), or game meat (meaning I need to befriend more hunters or become one myself.

I have a book coming in by Tovar Cerulli called The Mindful Carnivore: A Vegetarian's Hunt for Sustenance. He was a strict vegan for 10 years and then became a hunter. Listened to his podcast on the Joe Rogan Experience, alongside the conspiracy creators and have been thinking a lot about environmental philosophy. Considering hunting myself, only eating game meat.

Anyways, I know its the exact opposite topic than what's on here, but what do you guys think of environmental carnivores? The idea that hunting is helping the environment/ the philosophy that hunting successfully is killing something the most humane way possible, to reduce pain to a minimum through one clean shot?

Of course this isn't me coming in to ridicule. I have been an extremely strict vegetarian and did spurts of vegan for about a third of my life. The book comes in Friday and I'll let ya'll know how it is.

 

[yonder]

Been a vegetarian, sometimes vegan for almost 11 years now, been thinking a lot about why I am one and what I choose to eat, I've actually decided to become an ethically sourced omnivore. I'm starting to only eat meat/fish that is overpopulating and destroying environments (right now alaskan salmon), or game meat (meaning I need to befriend more hunters or become one myself.

I have a book coming in by Tovar Cerulli called The Mindful Carnivore: A Vegetarian's Hunt for Sustenance. He was a strict vegan for 10 years and then became a hunter. Listened to his podcast on the Joe Rogan Experience, alongside the conspiracy creators and have been thinking a lot about environmental philosophy. Considering hunting myself, only eating game meat.

Anyways, I know its the exact opposite topic than what's on here, but what do you guys think of environmental carnivores? The idea that hunting is helping the environment/ the philosophy that hunting successfully is killing something the most humane way possible, to reduce pain to a minimum through one clean shot?

Of course this isn't me coming in to ridicule. I have been an extremely strict vegetarian and did spurts of vegan for about a third of my life. The book comes in Friday and I'll let ya'll know how it is.

This is an interesting viewpoint, and I actually went from vegetarian to something like that at one point in my life for a couple of years. I also have a friend who is pretty much 99% vegan but eats meat when he visits his parents who hunt, and I don't have a huge issue with that. It makes a lot of sense, but ultimately I don't want to take the life of an animal if I don't absolutely have to, and at this point I wouldn't want to eat meat anyway. I believe that non-human animals want to be here and live their own lives. I don't feel like I have the right to take their lives unless my own depends on it so that pretty much defaults me to veganism. Why kill something if you don't have to? For the environment? How do you make that decision?

Wouldn't mind hearing more about the book if you find it interesting, though.

 

[ElTorro]

Been a vegetarian, sometimes vegan for almost 11 years now, been thinking a lot about why I am one and what I choose to eat, I've actually decided to become an ethically sourced omnivore. I'm starting to only eat meat/fish that is overpopulating and destroying environments (right now alaskan salmon), or game meat (meaning I need to befriend more hunters or become one myself.

There are actually overpopulated fish species? I had always thought that the oceans where generally overfished by indiscriminate mass fishing.

On a similar note, I find Memphis Meats very interesting. They are growing meat synthetically from real meat cells.

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

This is an interesting viewpoint, and I actually went from vegetarian to something like that at one point in my life for a couple of years. I also have a friend who is pretty much 99% vegan but eats meat when he visits his parents who hunt, and I don't have a huge issue with that. It makes a lot of sense, but ultimately I don't want to take the life of an animal if I don't absolutely have to, and at this point I wouldn't want to eat meat anyway. I believe that non-human animals want to be here and live their own lives. I don't feel like I have the right to take their lives unless my own depends on it so that pretty much defaults me to veganism. Why kill something if you don't have to? For the environment? How do you make that decision?

Wouldn't mind hearing more about the book if you find it interesting, though.

Conservationists and parks deal with overpopulation of certain species examples are rabbits, deer, bears. Often hunters come in to deal with this, if they don't, then they have to hire people to come in and deal with the population. One could argue we should let the overpopulation happen naturally, that it isn't our decision.

I'm not sure how I feel about this and certainly don't believe I have the answers, but the more I listen to opposing sides, the more I realize I have to figure out what I believe in you know? Granted, I'm still vegetarian most of the time and definitely am not coming in to argue the case for it. But I can't call myself a vegetarian anymore, I'd like to think of myself as a conscious carnivore haha.

This is some

There are actually overpopulated fish species? I had always thought that the oceans where generally overfished by indiscriminate mass fishing.

On a similar note, I find Memphis Meats very interesting. They are growing meat synthetically from real meat cells.

Yeah, I have a close friend who was a vegetarian, but works as a fish monger in boston for 9 years. He's been educating me on the fish breeds that are taking over other species' environments. Right now alaskan salmon is pretty destructive.

Anyways, I'll definitely let ya'll know how the book is.

I was always waiting for synthesized meats, but I wonder how much energy is spent making this meat? Of course, mass farming is a huge waste of energy as well.

Another interesting question that an environmental philosopher posed (I left my research journals back at work so I don't have her name on me) is the idea that culturally we try to avoid death, which is something completely naturally. This and our anthropomorphism of animals causes many people to become vegetarians. I don't think I fully agree with her, but I would be interested in reading what she has to say.

Anyways, I haven't seen it yet, but has anyone seen the documentary cowspiracy? As I said before, Joe Rogan had both of the creators on, both vegans and they seemed like pretty educated, well spoken individuals. I'll post the link when I'm home.

Again, not coming in to say what is right ethically, but these are interesting question I'm asking, and wonder if others do too. I know how horrible it is for vegetarians getting picked on and pressured. It really is terrible

 

[yonder]

Conservationists and parks deal with overpopulation of certain species examples are rabbits, deer, bears. Often hunters come in to deal with this, if they don't, then they have to hire people to come in and deal with the population. One could argue we should let the overpopulation happen naturally, that it isn't our decision.

I'm not sure how I feel about this and certainly don't believe I have the answers, but the more I listen to opposing sides, the more I realize I have to figure out what I believe in you know?

Yeah, I can relate to this. That being said, I don't really think about that a lot. I'm not interested in eating meat anymore (never liked game anyway), and it's not like I'm going to influence anyone's decisions relating to that area. I'm much more concerned with animal agriculture.

Another interesting question that an environmental philosopher posed (I left my research journals back at work so I don't have her name on me) is the idea that culturally we try to avoid death, which is something completely naturally. This and our anthropomorphism of animals causes many people to become vegetarians. I don't think I fully agree with her, but I would be interested in reading what she has to say.

Anyways, I haven't seen it yet, but has anyone seen the documentary cowspiracy? As I said before, Joe Rogan had both of the creators on, both vegans and they seemed like pretty educated, well spoken individuals. I'll post the link when I'm home.

Again, not coming in to say what is right ethically, but these are interesting question I'm asking, and wonder if others do too. I know how horrible it is for vegetarians getting picked on and pressured. It really is terrible

I don't see the problem with avoiding death when it comes to animals. If we can put a stop to suffering and death why wouldn't we? Or is she speaking about the depiction of death in society? In that case, a lot of vegan activists seek to expose death and to show the reality of animal slaughter. There is no need for anthropomorphisation either. Sentience and pain is what is important, and that doesn't require human characteristics to be applied. Does that make sense?

I've seen Cowspiracy and can recommend it, especially since you're concerned about the environment, but haven't checked out the Joe Rogan interview, though. I know it came under heavy critique from the vegan community on youtube (search joe rogan and vegan if you're curious).

Again, appreciate hearing your viewpoint!

Edit: Speaking of animals and the environment, here's a good video on the topic: Everything Wrong with Environmentalism in 11 Minutes or Less!

 

[ElTorro]

Another interesting question that an environmental philosopher posed (I left my research journals back at work so I don't have her name on me) is the idea that culturally we try to avoid death, which is something completely naturally. This and our anthropomorphism of animals causes many people to become vegetarians. I don't think I fully agree with her, but I would be interested in reading what she has to say.

Death is only part of the equation. Many vegetarians/vegans would probably say that animal suffering has more influence on their position than animal death (leaving environmental and economical considerations aside). Apart from that, I don't think that the anthropomorphization of animals is something that can be dismissed easily. The question boils down to how much consciousness and personhood different species can exemplify, which I see as a direct result of the complexity and structure of their brains, and how we even want to define personhood. It is not obvious to me how the quality of consciousness and personhood in animals relates to humans. But given the biological similarities of our brains, it seems unwarranted to me to dismiss the possibility that they are similar.

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

Am catching up on Sam Harris podcasts and he actually has one of the creators of Memphis meats on explaining the ethics and morality or it. I'll post it once I get home but what a coincidence haha. He's very good at explaining the process.

Edit I don't plan on eating farm raised animals, so I'd definitely be interested in eating synthesized meat instead, just to be clear.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Been a vegetarian, sometimes vegan for almost 11 years now, been thinking a lot about why I am one and what I choose to eat, I've actually decided to become an ethically sourced omnivore. I'm starting to only eat meat/fish that is overpopulating and destroying environments (right now alaskan salmon), or game meat (meaning I need to befriend more hunters or become one myself.

I have a book coming in by Tovar Cerulli called The Mindful Carnivore: A Vegetarian's Hunt for Sustenance. He was a strict vegan for 10 years and then became a hunter. Listened to his podcast on the Joe Rogan Experience, alongside the conspiracy creators and have been thinking a lot about environmental philosophy. Considering hunting myself, only eating game meat.

Anyways, I know its the exact opposite topic than what's on here, but what do you guys think of environmental carnivores? The idea that hunting is helping the environment/ the philosophy that hunting successfully is killing something the most humane way possible, to reduce pain to a minimum through one clean shot?

Of course this isn't me coming in to ridicule. I have been an extremely strict vegetarian and did spurts of vegan for about a third of my life. The book comes in Friday and I'll let ya'll know how it is.

I don't normally confront people about their dietary choices, but since you came into a vegan thread with this stuff...

I don't know what made you go veg/vegan in the first place, but it doesn't seem like you really have any compassion for animals. My litmus test is replacing what someone said about animals with "people" and if what they said starts sounding like a serial killer or someone promoting genocide, they're probably not really on the side of animals.

There's no such thing as "humane" hunting. It's murder, period. "Population control" is just killing one group of intelligent animals because YOU think that you know what's best for the environment and prefer one over the other. What right is it of yours or anyone's to take the life of a (for example) wolf to protect the life of a deer? The environment always sets itself back to an equilibrium, and has been doing so long before our ancestors were even swinging in trees. Once you justify one act of killing, it becomes much more easy justify others.

And "game meat"... you know, we're supposedly a civilized species. We have the knowledge to eat without taking the lives of animals. To continue to hunt down animals for "fun" and then eat them is barbaric, and reflects a view that animals' lives aren't important.

So no, you won't find any words of support from me.

 

[Ludovico]

.

I think if your main motivation for following a vegan lifestyle is for ethical concerns, then sure, all of this makes sense. I would love to see a gradual shift towards veganism. No matter what your reasons are, it's still a great way to live a more positive life.

However, some things I'd like to point out:

but it doesn't seem like you really have any compassion for animals

This is a pretty black and white statement. I'm all for reducing suffering, but I understand that there are some things that are outside of my control (I feed my ball python rats which I euthanize before hand - I CAN'T sustain the snake on a vegan diet, but I CAN reduce suffering/stress for both him and the rat).

There's no such thing as "humane" hunting. It's murder, period. "Population control" is just killing one group of intelligent animals because YOU think that you know what's best for the environment and prefer one over the other.

"Population Control" seeks to mitigate the damage done in the past. If there's an invasive species, or a species out of control because of lack of natural predators, there are steps to be taken to preserve the health of the rest of the system (removal preferred, but hunting/killing where necessary).

To continue to hunt down animals for "fun" and then eat them is barbaric, and reflects a view that animals' lives aren't important.

This comes across as very...cynical? Hunters can hunt responsibly, while having respect for the sport.
No disrespect on my part, I realize this is the Vegan thread.
I'm making the transition gradually, which is better than not transitioning at all.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IDK, Arsenic.
I'm sticking to plant based foods, have switched to plant based milks, have removed eggs...But I still don't know where I fall wrt game meat. I haven't had the opportunity to eat any since I switched, but I also realize the need for responsible hunting.
I would be proud of what steps you are taking, and don't sweat the labels, because they're honestly not worth it.


edit
Yonder - just realized you had a video link. Gonna watch it in a bit, thanks for posting

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

I don't normally confront people about their dietary choices, but since you came into a vegan thread with this stuff...

I don't know what made you go veg/vegan in the first place, but it doesn't seem like you really have any compassion for animals. My litmus test is replacing what someone said about animals with "people" and if what they said starts sounding like a serial killer or someone promoting genocide, they're probably not really on the side of animals.

There's no such thing as "humane" hunting. It's murder, period. "Population control" is just killing one group of intelligent animals because YOU think that you know what's best for the environment and prefer one over the other. What right is it of yours or anyone's to take the life of a (for example) wolf to protect the life of a deer? The environment always sets itself back to an equilibrium, and has been doing so long before our ancestors were even swinging in trees. Once you justify one act of killing, it becomes much more easy justify others.

And "game meat"... you know, we're supposedly a civilized species. We have the knowledge to eat without taking the lives of animals. To continue to hunt down animals for "fun" and then eat them is barbaric, and reflects a view that animals' lives aren't important.

So no, you won't find any words of support from me.

Daaaang. I thought meat eaters were harsh. Telling me I have no compassion for animals? Jesus.

I didn't come in for "support", I've contributed to this thread in the past and have been subscribed to it since it came about. I posted this because I've been considering my lifestyle, took on a keto diet to try and help with mental illnesses and overall health, but also wanted to pose some questions that I myself have no answer to, but find interesting to think about.

While I was a vegetarian/on again off vegan,(i couldn't full on vegan commit because I am allergic to soy and onions, ended up getting my protein from eggs), I never condemned people for their diets. We are what we eat, and if I do in fact decide to eat meat, I'd like to do it the most ethical way possible. Is hunting something like deer, where they are overpopulating like mad, and killing your own meat as a source of sustenance more violent and gruesome than buying meat from walmart from a factory farm? My personal opinion is, if I decide to eat meat (which I haven't yet), I'd rather take the life myself, understand the magnitude of it and have a connection with what I'm eating rather than not take the responsibility and buy with ignorance.

Anyways, the memphis meat podcast was incredibly interesting. I'm happy that he also discussed the energy it takes to produce this. Eventually it will me significantly smaller than the consumption to produce meat through factory farming which is awesome.

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/meat-without-murder

If ya'l have time, I recommend everyone to listen to it. Another interesting question Harris asks is how will this change people who define themselves as vegetarian/vegan? Will eating synthesized meat still qualify? I personally consider them to be the same, but it will be an interesting topic as this source of food becomes more readily available in the next 5 years.

 

[Famassu]

I don't normally confront people about their dietary choices, but since you came into a vegan thread with this stuff...

I don't know what made you go veg/vegan in the first place, but it doesn't seem like you really have any compassion for animals. My litmus test is replacing what someone said about animals with "people" and if what they said starts sounding like a serial killer or someone promoting genocide, they're probably not really on the side of animals.

There's no such thing as "humane" hunting. It's murder, period. "Population control" is just killing one group of intelligent animals because YOU think that you know what's best for the environment and prefer one over the other. What right is it of yours or anyone's to take the life of a (for example) wolf to protect the life of a deer? The environment always sets itself back to an equilibrium, and has been doing so long before our ancestors were even swinging in trees. Once you justify one act of killing, it becomes much more easy justify others.

And "game meat"... you know, we're supposedly a civilized species. We have the knowledge to eat without taking the lives of animals. To continue to hunt down animals for "fun" and then eat them is barbaric, and reflects a view that animals' lives aren't important.

So no, you won't find any words of support from me.

But humans have removed or vastly diminished the number of natural predators in nature, driven lots of them to (the brink of) extinction, as well as spread tons of species to areas where they cause massive harm to endemic species. This leads to a situation where the nature DOESN'T balance itself out because there's nothing to counter, say, a huge increase of grazers in a situation where nothing is hunting them to keep their numbers in check. Or in case of human-caused spread of certain species is doing damage to endemic species, we do have a responsibility to try to get rid of the invasive species. Humans have broken the balance and to reach it back there ARE steps that humans can make to help nature get there.

There are cases where population control IS justified, at least until some conservation efforts help increase the number of predators in a given area. Otherwise the population sizes of some species would grow to levels that aren't sustainable for a given region and not only will that often leave that particular species worse off in the long run because they cause sustained damage to the environment they overpopulate, it can do some real harm to nature in a larger scale so other species are worse off as well. Loss of biodiversity is a huge issue and we DO have to take whatever steps necessary to preserve as much of it as possible.

Of course not having those predators is also a human caused problem, but it's not something we can ignore now that we are at this point. Nature is missing tons of pieces in the ecological pyramid and humans do have to fill some of the roles previously held by animals that are now gone or so small in numbers that they alone can't keep nature in balance.

That said, the (lack of) limitations set for population control ARE somewhat arbitrary. They don't necessarily always base them on science, just what's "feels good" to the person making up the laws. We don't hunt certain harmful animals enough and the fear of top predators like wolves means that we hunt them all too much (i.e. Finland only has, like, 250 mature wolves and they've already hunted 46 wolves in 2016, too many of them alpha males).



I mean, we do have ecologists who study exactly these kinds of questions/phenomena, so you can't say "we have no idea about the value of different animals and so we can't choose what to hunt and what to not hunt." It's a complex web of causes & consequences for sure, but we do have an idea what happens if we don't do any population control. There are certain key species that can have a huge impact on an area's nature and we have studies that study the effect of overpopulation on the environment that is overpopulated, studies that show that the effect of such situations is always overwhelmingly negative. Lack of predators is a subject that has been studied quite a lot. It's a sad fact that humans do have to fill the role of a top predator in nature because we have destroyed the actual predators.

Your example of shooting a wolf to save deer is a bit weak one, since people who actually want to support the idea of only hunting animals that are overpopulated would not put wolves on that list in most regions of the world. People who want to hunt wolves everywhere are usually 1) assholes, 2) hysteric fear-mongers, 3) dickwads who have no respect for nature and/or 4) people with their own livelihood harmed by wolves (so $$$ is on the line). Sometimes it does make sense if they get a bit too accustomed to human settlements and are thus a danger to not only humans but pets as well, but most of the time it's just hysteria, in case of wolves.

Edit: Speaking of animals and the environment, here's a good video on the topic: Everything Wrong with Environmentalism in 11 Minutes or Less!

While that vid IS mostly right, it's not like we don't ALSO need environmentalists who focus on smaller issues. We need that kind of grassroots level activism/environmentalist attitude as much as we have a need for a larger scale wake-up call about how much meat/dairy production causes environmental issues. Every additional square meter of land that they can protect, every single species that we can conserve & every person who starts living a environmentally better life thanks to them is important.

And considering how much they need to bang their heads against walls to make even those small things happen, I'm not sure if it'll ever be possible to attack the bigger elephant in the room that is somehow abandoning or at least greatly diminishing meat & dairy consumption by a majority of people.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Daaaang. I thought meat eaters were harsh. Telling me I have no compassion for animals? Jesus.

Well, I am glad when someone eats vegetarian even one day a week, because that's one less animal put to death, so I really don't try to judge why people eat. I've been vegan over 15 years and have heard all kinds of rationales, and also gotten no end of shit from meat-eaters just from them learning that I'm vegan. I try to just brush it off. But when someone tries to justify hunting and putting an "ethical" label on it, I'm not going to just be silent, especially here. Perhaps I came off too harsh, so I apologize if I offended you, but really, I don't see how someone can have compassion for animals at the same time they take their life. Compassion isn't just about suffering. I know that's a common perspective in the hunter community – to focus on the suffering of the animal, as if it makes the act of killing an intelligent creature somehow more noble. I don't think it's noble or compassionate. It's just an execution.

I mean, we do have ecologists who study exactly these kinds of questions/phenomena, so you can't say "we have no idea about the value of different animals and so we can't choose what to hunt and what to not hunt." It's a complex web of causes & consequences for sure, but we do have an idea what happens if we don't do any population control. There are certain key species that can have a huge impact on an area's nature and we have studies that study the effect of overpopulation on the environment that is overpopulated, studies that show that the effect of such situations is always overwhelmingly negative. Lack of predators is a subject that has been studied quite a lot. It's a sad fact that humans do have to fill the role of a top predator in nature because we have destroyed the actual predators.

I respect your opinion, but simply don't agree. It's not our place to choose one species to survive over another, especially when humans are the ones who have caused imbalances in the equilibrium of ecosystems, either through hunting, introducing invasive species, or human expansion pushing animals out of their natural habitat. Instead of changing our behavior, we find it easier to just kill more animals. Systematic killing in order to "fix" the mistake is unethical. It reminds me of America often getting into a conflict in the Middle East, which then causes them to get into another war to try to fix the bad outcomes of the first one. All that happens is more deaths and more disruption. Sure, if you want to take ethics out of it, you may help a species survive that might be suffering due to our mistakes, but in many cases it's a losing battle anyway. I know that there are people who have their hearts in the right place, who have justified to themselves that the culling of animals is for some greater good, but at the end of the day innocent animals are being punished with a death sentence because of humans.

edit: After reflection, I'm going to stay out of this thread from now on. I'm sorry if I came on strong, I was taken aback by the pro-hunting stance, but I thought this was more of a "safe space" for vegans to talk about cool vegan stuff. I have no interest in talking food politics here, so it's probably best if I'm not here. Peace, and no hard feelings.

 

[Famassu]

I respect your opinion, but simply don't agree. It's not our place to choose one species to survive over another, especially when humans are the ones who have caused imbalances in the equilibrium of ecosystems, either through hunting, introducing invasive species, or human expansion pushing animals out of their natural habitat. Instead of changing our behavior, we find it easier to just kill more animals. Systematic killing in order to "fix" the mistake is unethical. It reminds me of America often getting into a conflict in the Middle East, which then causes them to get into another war to try to fix the bad outcomes of the first one. All that happens is more deaths and more disruption. Sure, if you want to take ethics out of it, you may help a species survive that might be suffering due to our mistakes, but in many cases it's a losing battle anyway. I know that there are people who have their hearts in the right place, who have justified to themselves that the culling of animals is for some greater good, but at the end of the day innocent animals are being punished with a death sentence because of humans.

Your view is kind of naive & shortsighted. You basically want to possibly make more animals (of all kinds of species, humans included, not just the ones hunted) go through prolonged suffering in the long run due to not having enough food, suffering from more diseases, going through more intra- & interspecies competition etc., just to save a much smaller amount of relatively few species from hunting.

Biodiversity is key to not only other animals' survival, but to humankind's as well. For that, we do have to do some sucky things like hunting. That's just the way it is.

All that said, yes, as I said in my previous post, we do need to have stricter hunting/fishing limitations when it comes to most animals that are fished/hunted. At the moment people are too trigger happy with lots of species, too careless in letting some become endangered before putting any brakes to their hunt and too eager to continue hunting previously endangered species that have seen some recovery.

 

[Daigoro]

Your view is kind of naive & shortsighted. You basically want to possibly make more animals (of all kinds of species, humans included, not just the ones hunted) go through prolonged suffering in the long run due to not having enough food, suffering from more diseases, going through more intra- & interspecies competition etc., just to save a much smaller amount of relatively few species from hunting.

Biodiversity is key to not only other animals' survival, but to humankind's as well. For that, we do have to do some sucky things like hunting. That's just the way it is.

what am i reading? there are alternatives to population control other than hunting FYI (sterilization, reintroducing natural predators, etc.). and all of that disease and suffering you mentioned is the way populations control themselves.

anyways, this topic doesn't belong in this thread. take it to another thread if you want to discus the ethics of hunting, leave it out of the vegan community thread please.

edit: After reflection, I'm going to stay out of this thread from now on. I'm sorry if I came on strong, I was taken aback by the pro-hunting stance, but I thought this was more of a "safe space" for vegans to talk about cool vegan stuff. I have no interest in talking food politics here, so it's probably best if I'm not here. Peace, and no hard feelings.

dont do that. this conversation is bullshit and doesn't belong here.

 

[anonymous_abc]

dont do that. this conversation is bullshit and doesn't belong here.

I concur.

Back on topic.
Vegetables are awesome!

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

Sorry, I just wanted to pose some thoughts and questions that I myself have asked and been asked for years as a vegetarian. I didn't want to cause an argument.

 

[matthewwhatever]

Yes, it's shocking that it would cause an argument to come into a vegan thread and say, "Hey guys, maybe eating meat isn't always that bad? Like, what if you just kill the animals quickly?"

A dead animal is a dead animal, however you want to justify it to yourself.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Threads like these remind me just how heterogeneous this forum really is. There's communities for everything! <3 GAF!

 

[dude]

Sorry, I just wanted to pose some thoughts and questions that I myself have asked and been asked for years as a vegetarian. I didn't want to cause an argument.

Listen, the points you raised can be interesting, but they're quite obviously going to be ticking a few people off considering this is a thread for Vegans. If you decide to not only regularly eat animal products but also claim that eating animals products is for the better, then this is a rather major branching point from any strand of Veganism. At this point, it's hard to see this as an inter-Vegan discourse, and more of a direct confrontation of the core ideology.
It's not that there's no merit at all in what you say. I'm Vegan mainly because I'm against the destructive and cruel meat and animal products industries. And as long as animal products are industrialized, there is no such thing as "ethical" meat, eggs, milks etc. Maybe in a different world I wouldn't be strictly opposed to what you're saying. But This is not the world we're living in, so I just can't accommodate those views in a Vegan ideology. I think this is what's rubbing people the wrong way.

 

[Gawge]

I visited Berlin last week with my partner (vegan). I ate vegan the whole week, and the food was incredible. We mainly are junk food, and it was so delicious. I think that I could immediately go vegan in Berlin.

I used the week as an impetus to give being vegetarian a try. I didn't feel like I could immediately go Vegan, I needed to be vegetarian first, though I'd like vegan to be the aim. I guess it's a bit harder without the amazing fast food options everywhere (there are still plenty of good options here in London, cookies and scream do the best milkshake I have ever tried, and it's vegan).

Until I moved to London about a year ago, I imagine that I ate meat almost every day of my life. It was just what you do, I love food and it was normality (I'm from Hull in north east England).

Over the last year I've been eating more and more vegetarian. Cooking vegan meals for me and my partner etc... And I'm learning a lot more, the main thing being how easy it is. I was worried about cheap weeknight options, but it's super easy what supermarkets have available.

Basically, I'm looking for whether there are good places for recommendations regarding places to eat out, and grab food for vegans. Specifically for London. I know from JME lyrics that Nandos and Leon can be good options? Any small local places though? I live on green lanes so I can get great falafel.

 

[matthewwhatever]

Have you checked Happy Cow? I've found it to be a great source for every city I've ever been to, and London seems to have literally hundreds of vegan/veg options!

 

[anonymous_abc]

Have you checked Happy Cow? I've found it to be a great source for every city I've ever been to, and London seems to have literally hundreds of vegan/veg options!

Yea Happy Cow is great, I use it all the time too.

 

[MrT]

When the wife and I were last down in London we went to a veg/vegan restaurant called Manna for my birthday, it's not cheap but the food was amazing

 

[ilikeme]

For some lab results back and everything is fine except I have super low Vitamin D levels. Takes a supplement if you're not already!

Also, this pancake recipe is the only pancake recipe you'll ever need: http://www.theppk.com/2011/12/puffy-pillow-pancakes/

I've been vegan now for 6 months and I'm going to take tests soon. Excited to see the results. I take B12 and D3 supplements already.

And man, this pancake recipe is amazing! Love it. Thank you!