BronzeWolf: I don't want people who consume some meat in their diet to feel bad, but t'd be nice if they felt something, anything. It seems to me that a majority of people who eat meat by default (that's how they were raised, nothing wrong with that) don't even recognize that the $1.29 burger they just bought at McDonald's on their way back from work was once a living animal. It's not worth their time to consider that for them to continue to live that something had to die. That makes me a bit sad; now there is no reason for them to feel bad for what they did, but for it to simply be another empty transient experience is just heart breaking.
Vegetarians gateway drug: Bacon
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SnakeXs said:
Makes me feel a bit better. LOL.
No, I actually have a lot of respect for people that are able to do the deed. It's pretty silly that we are in a culture that everyone wants to eat meat, and does but no one wants to get their hands dirty.
To eat meat I think there should be a meat-eaters certification test, you got to grab a rabbit and twist its neck till it snaps, then skin and eat it, then you got a free pass to eat whatever*.
*excluding endangered animals and people that don't want to be eaten.
BronzeWolf
Banned
ivedoneyourmom said:
I understand where meat comes from. I have been to the killing grounds and have hunt before. I also understand that the world is not what we want it to be, and that the facts of nature just don't care much about if we are sad, happy, sick or healthy.
Meat is a commodity. But it is a commodity that goes hand in hand with the development of the human being and as such, the choice between better and easier health for my family and an animal's life is not even worth the questioning.
I think PETA's videos are missing the whole point, anthropomorphizing animals is not even a little bit rational. Animals really do not care. Now treating them like shit is in no way useful to us either, so we shouldn't do it... I mean, more than the necessary. Also, happy animals are usually good meat (eg. pastured ruminants and grass fed cattle) so there is an added bonus on treating them well.
ivedoneyourmom said:
I agree with you. Humans need to realize that the world around them does not care for them and that eating is a privilege they must revel in with due respect
storafötter
Member
BronzeWolf said:
Of course I have to agree that Omega 3 from fish is superior than the plant based no matter what. I suppose my point was that it works for whats needed, compared to not getting any omega 3's at all. If someone who is a person like me who doesn't want to start eating fish for that reason.
I will personally start taking omega 3 supplements from the very same algae that the fish feed on due to it having omega 3 EPA & DHA.
BronzeWolf said:
Yeah you raise some important points. It doesn't work for everyone. But it is natural coming from this perspective to become defensive if people insist that having this diet is not possible for plenty too. So that is why I question and try to figure out what posters mean with what they are saying. It is a good thing we can still talk and discuss in polite ways and understand each other more.
Big Chungus
Member
bacon cheeseburgers are the best
BronzeWolf
Banned
sixteen-bit
Member
Bacon is overrated.
Not gonna lie, I had some for breakfast today though.
Not gonna lie, I had some for breakfast today though.
The Friendly Monster
Member
um...what?BronzeWolf said:
firstly bacon is meat...
secondly different meats have vastly different nutritional qualities
for example breast meat of chicken is far lower than bacon in fat or salt...far far lower.
I don't feel like it's wrong that something had to die for something else to live, though. I mean, I don't need to eat meat, but it does sustain me. That animal was going to die somehow, so why not have its death be for the benefit of others? Likewise, if there was some intelligent creature that enjoyed eating humans, I wouldn't harbor ill-will towards it, I would simply do my best to avoid being eaten by it.ivedoneyourmom said:
I do understand the concern over mistreatment of animals before they are killed. But I haven't seen any evidence that my choice to eat meat is going to make a difference. The idea that "If everybody thought like that nothing would ever change" is ideological and not really relevant. But the fact is at least 5% of meat is thrown out from grocery stores in the US, and rarer meats such as veal are thrown out 20% of the time. So even though I think the process to make veal is inhumane, my eating it isn't going to affect things either way, and in fact I would argue it's better to eat it than throw it away.
crimzonflame
Member
how about those turkey/chicken bacon? I think they taste pretty good.
BronzeWolf
Banned
The Friendly Monster said:
And that's good somehow?
The Friendly Monster
Member
Oh god I think I remember you from a previous discussion about vegetarianism....I'm bailing the fuck out!BronzeWolf said:
Stormwatch
Member
I don't eat beef, pork, fish, or eggs because I don't like the way they taste. Bacon is my one exception to that. It does seem to have mystical powers.
BertramCooper
Banned
As a farm kid, I've worked with livestock more than probably anyone on this board. I've become deeply attached to animals raised for food.ivedoneyourmom said:
That said, I have absolutely no qualms about consuming meat, dairy and eggs. Growing up on a farm gives you a perspective few people have these days. You can love your animals and eat them. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I've had vegans and vegetarians criticize me and my family, saying that we don't care for our animals and exploit them. I retort by telling them that I care for these animals more in a single day than they will in a lifetime.
And for the record, my family's dairy farm is not an organic, free range operation. We are a modern, conventional farm, and proud of it.
iamaustrian
Member
I'm always amazed about the bacon-crazy americans, brits and canadians.
We eat Wurst...lots of Wurst. Extrawurst is my fav. it's probably ten times fattier and unhealthier too.
We eat Wurst...lots of Wurst. Extrawurst is my fav. it's probably ten times fattier and unhealthier too.
BronzeWolf said:
Yeah, I was going to respond too, but I figured it's not worth it. The 1977 nutritional guidelines of fake science are still strong.
To anyone that actually wants to understand what fats are healthy and which aren't in context of dosage:
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/...uch-thing-as-a-macronutrient-part-i-fats.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-stuck-at-starting.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/34/8/1552.long
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/08/04/ajcn.2009.29146.abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/20/ajcn.2008.26285.abstract
The idea of fat being unhealthy isn't compatible with evolution. If there were animal fats that were bad for humans, humans either would have had natural selection to favor digestive systems that worked with the food they ate and/or groups that didn't eat them would have survived. Humans ate meat for hundreds of thousands of years, grains for 10k years. The selection rate for grain tolerance probably hasn't completed yet, much like milk tolerance.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
I've never really understood the animal rights argument for vegetarianism. They get taken care of and well fed and when it comes time to slaughter them, they're knocked out and then killed within several seconds. You could say the animal didn't live a full life or experience joy of real sex but I don't care about that.
I do understand the efficiency concerns with producing meat vs. plants. But then the most reasonable choice is to just restrict your meat consumption to maybe only on the weekends.
I do understand the efficiency concerns with producing meat vs. plants. But then the most reasonable choice is to just restrict your meat consumption to maybe only on the weekends.
Al-ibn Kermit said:
I'm not sure meat consumption is that inefficient. Modern farming with grains, soy, etc does the following to the environment:
-Completely destroys the natural habitat
-Requires massive amounts of oil to create fertilizer to sustain
-Any remaining animals are shot, pesticides are sprayed all over the place
I think meat, fruit, nuts, and vegetables are less invasive.
Also conventional meat is particularly inefficient today because of grain subsidies it's actually cheaper to grow corn for the cow rather than the cow graze grass on the natural habitat.
And then even if meat turns out to be less efficient, why we do apply this logic just to food? If everyone in the world lived like an American, the planet would be dead. It's not sustainable to have suburbia, drive cars, fly planes, have large TVs a lofty couch and A/C.
ivedoneyourmom said:
It's rare that I see a summary of my own beliefs as well done as this one. Bravo.
Al-ibn Kermit said:
That's how it is supposed to happen, sure, but in the vast majority of cases, it is nothing close to this for the animal. Not only is their treatment during life normally abysmal, but the actual killing process is optimized for speed, and not with the animal in mind. Animals very often die a prolonged and painful death.
ch0mp said:
Most of this is used to feed livestock.
teh_pwn said:
^ I actually want to get rid of our dependance on many of those things... Anyway, being lower on the trophic scale certainly is more energy efficient, however you are completely right in how we manage our grains is poorly done and not very good for the environment.
Al-ibn Kermit: I know I'm going to get in some heat for proposing this, but are you opposed to eating say dog? If so, why? They would live a really nice life up to the point they are killed. It's simply about choice, as a human I am blessed with the ability to ponder and rationalize my decisions. Animals aren't afforded the ability to decide if they should be eaten or not, I choose to not take advantage of my position of power.
BertramCooper: Yeah, I grew up on a farm as well, well a ranch anyway. It's not that I am squeamish about eating animals I raised - I simply made a logical rational decision that I would draw a line between what I am and am not to eat; and I stick to that.
inapp622: I think there needs to be revisions to the laws to keep that kind of waste from happening. It's rather sad to think how important the dollar is relative to none-human-life.
BronzeWolf: I think PETA is a terrible organization, and I think that the videos that they use to shock people into complying with their ideology are short-lived snuff and totally non-vegan in spirit. People need to come around to deciding what is okay or not to eat through rational thought, and that alone.
I do question your not questioning the death of an animal - I think it should always be something that is thought about, is one's life truly better for eating that cheap burger? I'd say in some cases it is - if I give a few dollars to a down on his luck transient I figure if they do buy food it will probably be meat - that's okay by me I guess; however there are also 300lb people that have to order 8 chicken burgers eat 7 and toss the last one.
Kentpaul: You get used to it after a while, I think most people fail at being a vegetarian because they try it for an hour or two till the next meal, grab some food, realize that without thinking they ordered something with meat in it and come to the determination that it is too hard to give it up, or that they are weak willed, or something. Giving up meat is definitely easier that quitting smoking - however the way our culture is structured is that meat is a very transparent and ever present.
It's like quitting smoking when every person you know, smokes - right in front of you, they blow it in your face and say come on, you know you want to! Then you go to outings, and everyone steps outside in the cold to have a cigarette, and you want to also - because that's what you used to do, and that's what everyone else is doing and you don't want to feel like an outsider. But trust me, it gets easier over time, I never accidentally eat something with meat in it - it's like accidentally eating a rock, when was the last time you did that?
Enosh
Member
same hereiamaustrian said:
well thinking about it, second favorite, there is some austrian one I love, it's dark, has some wood trunk on the cover thingy, I never remember the name (can't even realy explain it in english), but my uncle gets it from austria, ofcourse he always forgets about actualy buying it so I have to sometimes wait weeks for it -.-
oh and austria has also the best extrawurst I have ever eaten, it's in a round desing (I mean the whole wurst is shaped like a circle, not refering to the roundness of the wurst itself, argh I think you understand ^^ ), red plastics around it (well that's basicly 99% of them...) again no idea about the actual market name, would recognize it if I see it
edit, looking at wiki, the first one I mentioned certanly falls under the Landjäger variat
BronzeWolf
Banned
Dudes, I am kind of burned out of this topic right now, so I'll bow out for the time being.
I know that some of your vegetarians concerns are logical fallacies ivedoneyourmom, and irrational, which is not bad since you don't parade them around, but if you want to talk about it later I would be happy to oblige.
Lates
I know that some of your vegetarians concerns are logical fallacies ivedoneyourmom, and irrational, which is not bad since you don't parade them around, but if you want to talk about it later I would be happy to oblige.
Lates
storafötter
Member
People seem to forget when producing grains and legumes, it really depends on the methods you are applying for production. You can do this in many more sustainable methods, the same can be said with meat. Now people are just throwing out who to blame for this and that. However in the end we are just simplifying this cause of concern. Not doing anything than to sit on our asses and complain.
Like there is an amazing difference on growing Millet instead of commercial wheat (especially if people are to calculate the difference in water waste). If everyone had more biodiversity when growing crops and respectful of nurturing the soil than killing everything thats alive in it. We would definitely have a much more sustainable planet, and healthy agricultural practices. Every year due to these idiotic harming methods we get less fertile soil and more waste. Then you have all these natural disasters that the lab made seeds can't protect us from (worsening the situation instead).
Hemp is an amazing crop, it's so effective in so many unthinkable ways that you would think that it obvious of us to take advantage of this. Unfortunately it is considered illegal due to some misunderstandings and effective lobbying from cotton industry. It grows easily around the globe and doesn't even need much use or any pesticides, fertilizers. You can use it for clothes, food, buildings with impressive results.
Reminds me has anyone made a Hemp appreciation thread on Gaf? if not I will certainly.
Like there is an amazing difference on growing Millet instead of commercial wheat (especially if people are to calculate the difference in water waste). If everyone had more biodiversity when growing crops and respectful of nurturing the soil than killing everything thats alive in it. We would definitely have a much more sustainable planet, and healthy agricultural practices. Every year due to these idiotic harming methods we get less fertile soil and more waste. Then you have all these natural disasters that the lab made seeds can't protect us from (worsening the situation instead).
Hemp is an amazing crop, it's so effective in so many unthinkable ways that you would think that it obvious of us to take advantage of this. Unfortunately it is considered illegal due to some misunderstandings and effective lobbying from cotton industry. It grows easily around the globe and doesn't even need much use or any pesticides, fertilizers. You can use it for clothes, food, buildings with impressive results.
Reminds me has anyone made a Hemp appreciation thread on Gaf? if not I will certainly.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Man is at the top of the food chain.
All animals bow down to their based humans. We will eat you and it will taste good.
All animals bow down to their based humans. We will eat you and it will taste good.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
For the first point, the problem is that it you have to destroy a lot more of the natural habitats to produce a pound of meat versus a pound of corn or soy. Maybe you believe that it would be better if they were just eating grass but that's not remotely possible for the vast majority of cows. It's way too inefficient to have cows feed in pastures instead of in a conventional, factory farm. Actually farming the grains and feeding that to the cows is the best idea as far as saving natural habitats while still meeting demand.teh_pwn said:
Cows produce a lot of methane no matter what they eat and of course, they're only about 6% efficient in turning the food (grains) they eat into meat. If you're worried about the carbon footprint or whatever than meat seems like the worst option.
Pesticides greatly increase agricultural efficiency. Something like 30%-50%. They do bio-degrade fairly quickly though, their half-life is something like two weeks. People worry about the trace amounts left by the time the produce is harvested but it's just really ridiculous paranoia. There are legitimate concerns over the pesticides going into the ground water and then into the streams and rivers as the pesticides that are normally used can be very lethal to fish (not mammals though). I'm guessing that if that is a problem, it can be solved through irrigation and fines on farmers who use them too much.o
iirate said:
I don't know anything about how most real world farms treat their animals. I personally don't care if it's raised on a pasture or on a factory floor though, since I doubt they're smart enough to care about the difference. I do know that slaughterhouses go through the carcasses very quickly but I'd imagine they still always use the air hammer, except for Halal or Kosher slaughterhouses.
If it was always raised as food and killed relatively humanely then I wouldn't mind. I think our society has a taboo against eating any animal with that amount of intelligence though.ivedoneyourmom said:
BobTheFork
Member
Damn. That would make a great bacon lattice and tomato sandwich.Medalion said:
I wouldn't mind vegans and vegetarians if they weren't so preachy all the time. You guys are the ones always trying to take a meal based on meat and convert it into some flavourless, artificial soy mess. I like meat. I like animal testing for medicine and research. Like Penn and Teller, I'd kill every monkey on the planet if we could save the life of just one junky with aids.
Al-ibn Kermit said:
I'd argue that the reason why corn and soy are more efficient is only because the government subsidizes corn and soy such that it is cheaper than letting the cows collect the grass on the fields that still have trees, birds, rabbits, mice, and other animals. Some sustainable farms will cycle the fields such that chickens take the field after flies have laid their eggs in cow patties, providing free food for the chicken.
Cows are much more adapted to eating grass, and produce more nutritious meat if they eat grass. If you get rid of the corn subsidies, you both eliminate the artificially inexpensive sugar (HFCS) in grocery store items and you reduce the linoleic acid content of meat while boosting long chain omega 3s, CLA, and vitamins. Both of these changes should vastly improve human health, and improve the living conditions of the animals.
I don't know if we can say whether or not meat or some vegetable based diet is more efficient. Have you seen any studies that compare sustainable farming of livestock & vegetables vs grains and soy? I mean, you could be right, but I'm not aware of any studies that factor in things like oil consumption or human health.
Do insects adapt to pesticides? It seems like there may be a parallel to pesticides and antibiotics. Natural selection should quickly work to create resistant pests.
Ulairi said:
I really hate how this myth gets propagated. I've only known a handful of vegans, but 2/3s of them, myself included, aren't the least bit preachy. Anytime that I could be considered so, it is in direct response to inquisition by someone else. Even then, why would I talk down to them? I certainly won't be winning anyone over with that attitude, and I certainly have enough perspective to realize that I have spent the majority of my life as an omnivore.
You can not begin the fathom the amount of shit I have to take about my diet from people that can't take shit about their own in return. There is this ridiculous double standard in which what we're doing is some joke, and any rebuttal is met with anger. I'm not saying that you're guilty of this, as I don't even know you. However, I have to deal with this level of defensiveness enough to know that it normally isn't worth it. Now don't assume that I get upset at omnis as a whole because of this. All it has shown me is that both sides have douche-bags, and what you choose to eat doesn't define that one way or another.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Yeah, in the last 5 years I don't think I've initiated a conversation about my vegetarianism. And of all my friends and acquaintances who have been vegetarian and vegan I have known very few who could be described as "preachy". What I have experienced is a huge amount of shit from people who get massively defensive when they find out I'm vegetarian. Sometimes it's piss-taking, sometimes it's argument, it's always tedious.iirate said:
The Friendly Monster said:
Agreed, I don't go around telling people I am a vegetarian, but when they find out they are always quick to point out how much I am missing, or how inconvenient my life is, or how god shouldn't have made animals 'so damn tasty' - some like to go further and preform the "I'll eat twice as much meat from now on" meme. I really hate that shit, it's like the guy that is always trying to hook his gay friend up with a girl, or the person trying to get the atheist to come to church "our pastor isn't like others, he really understands". Or the people that get upset when another "chinq", "towel head", "dot head", "darkie", "beaner" moves into their neighborhood - "great now they are going to build another mosque", "all the signs are going to be in spanish", etc.
It's sick.
I'm convinced that all of these types of actions simply stem from a fear that their known culture is slowly evolving, and they may not be able to adapt. So instead of accept what is going on, they try and revert it to a more 'normal' orthodoxic state.
ivedoneyourmom said:
My favorite part is how clever many people think they are by saying these things. It just doesn't occur to them that we hear all of this multiple times weekly.
As far as letting people know that I'm vegan, I used to be extremely timid about it. Even these days, I have friends that don't find out for months. However, one thing that I have started doing is wearing a few different vegan shirts. The main reason for this is to give the genuinely interested omni's an outlet to discuss issues. I can do far more for the issue simply by raising awareness than by living my life in silence. However, I'm not going to waste everyone's time preaching to those that don't care.
Trent Strong
Banned
People who don't think that killing animals capable of feeling pain is immoral are just deluding themselves and living in a fantasy world. I eat meat, but I feel guilty about it. People who don't feel at least a little bit guilty about eating meat haven't thought the whole issue through.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The animal you eat wouldn't even have existed if we didn't eat him. These animals are born for the sole purpose of being eaten.Trent Strong said:
Very rarely do animals in the wild die of old age. Only the top tier predators manage to do this, and even after they're dead, something eats their body almost immediatly. The creatures we eat are nothing more than giant beats for the larger, more powerful, more intelligent creatures to use for fuel.
iNvid02
Member
Trent Strong said:
Someone is just gonna do the old food chain carnivore argument.
edit: some guy is trying to grow meat in a lab
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