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[iirate]

The animal you eat wouldn't even have existed if we didn't eat him. These animals are born for the sole purpose of being eaten.

Very rarely do animals in the wild die of old age. Only the top tier predators manage to do this, and even after they're dead, something eats their body almost immediatly. The creatures we eat are nothing more than giant beats for the larger, more powerful, more intelligent creatures to use for fuel.

It's not as much about whether they lived or not, but how they lived. The conditions in the average modern farm are sickening. "Free-range" is so loosely defined that it almost holds no meaning as well. Yes, many animals in the wild have shitty lives then are murdered as well, but it doesn't mean that I have to take part in it.

As long as my fuel need not come from animals, I don't think consuming their products is a worthwhile trade.

 

[SnakeXs]

People who don't think that killing animals capable of feeling pain is immoral are just deluding themselves and living in a fantasy world. I eat meat, but I feel guilty about it. People who don't feel at least a little bit guilty about eating meat haven't thought the whole issue through.

Thanks for applying the one universal set of morals to everyone.

 

[Trent Strong]

The animal you eat wouldn't even have existed if we didn't eat him. These animals are born for the sole purpose of being eaten.

Very rarely do animals in the wild die of old age. Only the top tier predators manage to do this, and even after they're dead, something eats their body almost immediatly. The creatures we eat are nothing more than giant beats for the larger, more powerful, more intelligent creatures to use for fuel.

Just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good. Just because something is, doesn't mean it should be. (Hume's guillotine).

 

[Darkmakaimura]

What about Jews and Muslims? They have a strong will I guess when it comes to bacon.

 

[KtSlime]

The animal you eat wouldn't even have existed if we didn't eat him. These animals are born for the sole purpose of being eaten.

Very rarely do animals in the wild die of old age. Only the top tier predators manage to do this, and even after they're dead, something eats their body almost immediatly. The creatures we eat are nothing more than giant beats for the larger, more powerful, more intelligent creatures to use for fuel.

So, if I raised human children, and ate them, that's okay because:
Humans are "Animals"
They were "Born for the sole purpose of being eaten"
I'm "larger"
I'm "more powerful"
I'm "more intelligent"

Just making sure I get your rules correct.

 

[TylerD]

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's not as much about whether they lived or not, but how they lived. The conditions in the average modern farm are sickening. "Free-range" is so loosely defined that it almost holds no meaning as well. Yes, many animals in the wild have shitty lives then are murdered as well, but it doesn't mean that I have to take part in it.

As long as my fuel need not come from animals, I don't think consuming their products is a worthwhile trade.

Plants are living things also. In some circles, they even have a soul. Most commercial farms don't treat plants with any kind of respect either. Heck, most commercial industries don't treat their humans with any respect

So, if I raised human children, and ate them, that's okay because:
Humans are "Animals"
They were "Born for the sole purpose of being eaten"
I'm "larger"
I'm "more powerful"
I'm "more intelligent"

Just making sure I get your rules correct.

That's against human nature. Eating a cow is not

 

[Trent Strong]

Thanks for applying the one universal set of morals to everyone.

Certain moral principals are based on reason and logic, and they do apply to everyone. For example, slavery, ethnic cleansing, raping and murdering a child, and etc. are objectively, universally immoral. These things don't become acceptable just becaue someone or some culture believes they're acceptable.

 

[gutterboy44]

The "preachy" vegans and vegetarian thing is so unfounded and if anything has changed sides. I have nothing but preachy meat eating friends. All they talk about is meat and how people should eat bacon and burgers and tell every vegetarian how much they are missing out on. I have never heard a veggie or vegan friend ever say anything other than, "I am sorry I don't eat meat" etc in the most polite way possible. In contrast, I can recall as recent as a week ago about someone preaching ad nausea about meat to me, without any input from me other than explaining that I returned my soup because they gave me chicken instead of tofu.

If you knew a douchey vegan or vegetarian, they were just douches. It had nothing to do with their diet. What makes someone sound like a douche or just an ignoramus is saying something like, "I will eat more meat inspite them" That is practically a douchebag mantra.

Enjoy your food what ever it may be, stay out of other people's business. End of discussion.

 

[KtSlime]

Plants are living things also. In some circles, they even have a soul. Most commercial farms don't treat plants with any kind of respect either. Heck, most commercial industries don't treat their humans with any respect

Most plants don't have BRAINS and CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS.

But you are correct, people should respect plants.

 

[Trent Strong]

Plants are living things also. In some circles, they even have a soul. Most commercial farms don't treat plants with any kind of respect either. Heck, most commercial industries don't treat their humans with any respect

Plants don't feel pain and they don't have emotions. Comparing them to mammals is nonsensical.

 

[Srsly]

We wouldn't be here without animals eating animals. lolz

 

[Trent Strong]

Plants are living things also. In some circles, they even have a soul. Most commercial farms don't treat plants with any kind of respect either. Heck, most commercial industries don't treat their humans with any respect


That's against human nature. Eating a cow is not

You can't use human nature to justify any act. Just because something comes naturally to a human doesn't mean that it's good.

 

[KtSlime]

We wouldn't be here without animals eating plants. lolz

Fixed that for ya.

balladofwindfishes: Human nature is culturally defined, ever heard of a canibal? Totally A-OK to them to eat people.

Edit: Oh and another point about human nature and culture; The Hindu don't eat cow, it's against human nature *to them* to do so.

 

[Srsly]

Fixed that for ya.

No, not really.

 

[Srsly]

Fixed that for ya.

balladofwindfishes: Human nature is culturally defined, ever heard of a canibal? Totally A-OK to them to eat people.

Sure, there is no true universal morality, but it's fucking stupid to eat another functioning human being in your community.

 

[KtSlime]

No, not really.

Okay, animals eat animals; true.

By your logic, humans are animals, so we eat animals.

However, cows are animals, and do not eat animals.

So your statement that animals eat animals is not in fact true at all.

protip: you have to define what animals eat what things.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Plants don't feel pain and they don't have emotions. Comparing them to mammals is nonsensical.

If I go into my aquarium right now and poke a snail, he doesn't go into his shell because he's cowering in fear. He doesn't know what I'm doing, he doesn't know who I am. He doesn't remember why he's there, he doesn't know he's a snail. He hides in his shell because he knows that something touching him means "get into your shell." He doesn't feel pain. He doesn't have the same pain sensors we have. He doesn't need them, he doesn't bleed and he can regrow anything he loses. The "pain" he feels is just "oh man, one of my tentacles is falling off, I should probably do something about it!"

So can I go right now and eat my snail? Would a vegetarian eat my snail? He only shows emotion because I put my human emotions onto him, because as a human, it's difficult to grasp a creature that just "exists."


Now, that's not a mammal, but most of the animals we eat (like chickens) don't show much, if any, in terms of emotion. We only see them as emotion because we have emotions.

 

[jambo]

hell if i know, i'm not a nutritionist. sure doesn't look like something my gastric tract would thank me for, though.

Wouldn't matter if you were a nutritionist, that term isn't legally protected. Never trust a nutritionist!

Dietitian is the one you want.

 

[KtSlime]

If I go into my aquarium right now and poke a snail, he doesn't go into his shell because he's cowering in fear. He doesn't know what I'm doing, he doesn't know who I am. He doesn't remember why he's there, he doesn't know he's a snail. He hides in his shell because he knows that something touching him means "get into your shell." He doesn't feel pain. He doesn't have pain sensors. He doesn't need them, he doesn't bleed and he can regrow anything he loses.

So can I go right now and eat my snail? Would a vegetarian eat my snail? He only shows emotion because I put my human emotions onto him, because as a human, it's difficult to grasp a creature that just "exists."


Now, that's not a mammal, but most of the animals we eat (like chickens) don't show much, if any, in terms of emotion. We only see them as emotion because we have emotions.

How do you know that we feel emotion before our body interprets a poke as our "get into your shell" moment. Could it be that after we have felt pain our minds rationalize it and try to make sense of it? Why does it matter if an animal can not rationalize or make sense of the pain - they still moved, the pain signal was still felt.

 

[Srsly]

Okay, animals eat animals; true.

By your logic, humans are animals, so we eat animals.

However, cows are animals, and do not eat animals.

So your statement that animals eat animals is not in fact true at all.

Wow, I want to insult you, but I'll refrain.

Humans are animals, period. We evolved from animals dating back to roughly a billion years ago. It was natural selection primarily from predation that forced evolutionary changes that have resulted in the powerful brain we have today. This is how mammals, fish and reptiles evolved in the first place.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

How do you know that we feel emotion before our body interprets a poke as our "get into your shell" moment. Could it be that after we have felt pain our minds rationalize it and try to make sense of it? Why does it matter if an animal can not rationalize or make sense of the pain - they still moved, the pain signal was still felt.

"Pain" is a loaded term

For many animals, it's just a nerve reaction telling them not to do that again.

 

[KtSlime]

Wow, I want to insult you, but I'll refrain.

Humans are animals, period. We evolved from animals dating back to roughly a billion years ago. It was natural selection primarily from predation that forced evolutionary changes that have resulted in the powerful brain we have today. This is how mammals, fish and reptiles evolved in the first place.

We also evolved from animals that were nekkid, but I hardly see people running down the street without clothes on. We also evolved from animals that eat plants, and those animals that we evolved from evolved from animals that eat other animals, and it's been a fucking tennis match since the beginning of animals switching different food sources.

Isn't it time we switch to a more sustainable food source?

And out of curiosity, if you were to insult me, how would you go about it?

balladofwindfishes: So cladistically, where would you draw the line of where the evolutionary adaptation which I call 'pain' first came to be?

 

[Boogiepop]

Sure, there is no true universal morality, but it's fucking stupid to eat another functioning human being in your community.

But it's fine to eat a non-functioning human being?

 

[KtSlime]

But it's fine to eat a non-functioning human being?

Haha, yeah, what about a dead human being? Burying it seems like a perfectly good waste of meat if you ask me.

 

[JCX]

Going to eat bacon for breakfast tomorrow. So excited.

 

[otake]

I do love bacon but I also consume it in moderation. Yay, bacon.

Vegans and vegetarians are inconvenient. They ruin dinner parties with their diet. You put in all this effort to make this dinner and in comes some vegan who won't eat it. Then you have to scramble to find something to feed the guy or girl and now instead of talking about anything else, everyone is focused on the vegan. The are inconvenient.

Not to mention, it's quite a luxury to be vegan or vegetarian. I do have respect for them, but it does bother me when a guests rejects my meal because they choose to not eat meat.

 

[Poimandres]

No, a vegan doesn't consume any animal products, including meat, any dairy, eggs, and for some, honey (I don't consider it vegan). There is actually a lot more to be watchful of in addition to this, but meat, dairy and eggs make up the majority of what we abstain from.

Plants are alive too my man. Why put animals on the pedestal? Is one form of life more "valuable" than another? What about foods that are halfway between plant and animal like mushrooms?

Love me some bacon!

 

[KtSlime]

I do love bacon but I also consume it in moderation. Yay, bacon.

Vegans and vegetarians are inconvenient. They ruin dinner parties with their diet. You put in all this effort to make this dinner and in comes some vegan who won't eat it. Then you have to scramble to find something to feed the guy or girl and now instead of talking about anything else, everyone is focused on the vegan. The are inconvenient.

Not to mention, it's quite a luxury to be vegan or vegetarian. I do have respect for them, but it does bother me when a guests rejects my meal because they choose to not eat meat.

Yeah, I think that is where I get the most pain out of being a vegetarian as well. I don't mind not eating, but the host always feels like they have to do something, but I usually avoid that situation long before it happens by letting people that may be preparing food on my behalf know that I am a vegetarian immediately after being invited.

 

[Trent Strong]

If I go into my aquarium right now and poke a snail, he doesn't go into his shell because he's cowering in fear. He doesn't know what I'm doing, he doesn't know who I am. He doesn't remember why he's there, he doesn't know he's a snail. He hides in his shell because he knows that something touching him means "get into your shell." He doesn't feel pain. He doesn't have the same pain sensors we have. He doesn't need them, he doesn't bleed and he can regrow anything he loses. The "pain" he feels is just "oh man, one of my tentacles is falling off, I should probably do something about it!"

So can I go right now and eat my snail? Would a vegetarian eat my snail? He only shows emotion because I put my human emotions onto him, because as a human, it's difficult to grasp a creature that just "exists."


Now, that's not a mammal, but most of the animals we eat (like chickens) don't show much, if any, in terms of emotion. We only see them as emotion because we have emotions.

Anyone who doesn't think dogs have emotions has either never had a dog, or is insane. Mammals aren't robots who don't feel, they are closely related to us evolitonarily, and they have similar feelings. This isn't me projecting my emotions onto them, their central nervous systems and brains are similar enough to ours that you would expect them to have similar feelings. It's just logical. As for chickens and cows, not matter what their capacity is for emotion, they definitely feel pain, so /thread.

We wouldn't be here without animals eating animals. lolz

What's your point? That's kind of a bizarre off topic post.

 

[Poimandres]

Haha, yeah, what about a dead human being? Burying it seems like a perfectly good waste of meat if you ask me.

Fun fact: apparently human corpses smell similar to off pork. If ever you were to eat a human, they would probably taste kind of similar to pork. Ie; they would taste delicious!

 

[KtSlime]

Fun fact: apparently human corpses smell similar to off pork. If ever you were to eat a human, they would probably taste kind of similar to pork. Ie; they would taste delicious!

Hmmm, sounds like a lucrative business possibility. Now again, why is it illegal to eat people that died naturally?

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't human meat the the best source of proteins for humans?

 

[Beelzeboss]

I'm all for soylent bacon

 

[Poimandres]

Hmmm, sounds like a lucrative business possibility. Now again, why is it illegal to eat people that died naturally?

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't human meat the the best source of proteins for humans?

I'm no expert, but I think most animals shy away from eating their own kind. Obviously there are exceptions, but I think eating your own species is quite risky for diseases etc.

Also, the smell of a human corpse is something you never forget I've been told. People who deal with corpses can often walk into a room and tell if someone has died there- even many months after the event. They say the smell never leaves an enclosed space like a car.

 

[KtSlime]

I'm no expert, but I think most animals shy away from eating their own kind. Obviously there are exceptions, but I think eating your own species is quite risky for diseases etc.

Also, the smell of a human corpse is something you never forget I've been told. People who deal with corpses can often walk into a room and tell if someone has died there- even many months after the event. They say the smell never leaves an enclosed space like a car.

Yeah, it's probably not worth the effort. Too much legislation would need to be changed, have to get consent forms, monitors to get fresh meat, doctors to test to make sure the meat is up to health standards. Yeah, dumb idea.

Sorry Beelzeboss, you'll have to wait.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

It's not natural to not eat animals.

 

[KtSlime]

It's not natural to not eat animals.

Yeah, cause it's totally natural to have a human lead a bull up to a cow, have her inseminated, lock her in a fenced area till she gives birth, wait till the offspring is of age and has a good amount of fat on it, lead it up a narrow path, and kill it with a sharp piece of metal fashioned by smelting metal from rocks that are found in some distant mountain.

Then it's even more natural to grind it up and store it in a refrigerator until it gets shipped off to a grocery store so that people that sit at a cubicle 8 hours a day can pick it up, read the date on the package, pay for it and go home.

Then on top of the natural acts that proceeded it, the person naturally turns on his gas stove and adds spices to the meat and cooks it in oils derived from plants. =/

You have a funny definition of the word natural.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I'd argue that the reason why corn and soy are more efficient is only because the government subsidizes corn and soy such that it is cheaper than letting the cows collect the grass on the fields that still have trees, birds, rabbits, mice, and other animals. Some sustainable farms will cycle the fields such that chickens take the field after flies have laid their eggs in cow patties, providing free food for the chicken.

I don't know how much it cheaper corn would be without the subsidies but it seems that you can grow a lot more pounds of corn per acre than you can grass. Plus cows gain weight more slowly on a grass diet. Grass fed does have less fat and more omega-3 so I can understand the health benefit but from an economic perspective, it just seems too inefficient.

I don't know if we can say whether or not meat or some vegetable based diet is more efficient. Have you seen any studies that compare sustainable farming of livestock & vegetables vs grains and soy? I mean, you could be right, but I'm not aware of any studies that factor in things like oil consumption or human health.

Assuming most of the animals we eat are fed a grain-based diet, then there's an energy loss obviously so vegetarian foods would seem more efficient. There might be some examples where it's not like that though.

Do insects adapt to pesticides? It seems like there may be a parallel to pesticides and antibiotics. Natural selection should quickly work to create resistant pests.

It's complicated. The ones I know about are very potent neurotoxins that will at the least temporarily paralyze the insect and eventually they will die if they don't get away from the sprayed area. They do have a protein in their body that can detoxify small amounts of the pesticide but usually the pesticide is combined with a chemical that works as a synergist and disables that protein. I believe that some insects are able to adapt and last longer against the pesticides like with mosquitos and DDT for example but they will eventually die. The insects apparently don't hang around any sprayed areas though so the pesticides do accomplish their goal of keeping the crops safe.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Yeah, cause it's totally natural to have a human lead a bull up to a cow, have her inseminated, lock her in a fenced area till she gives birth, wait till the offspring is of age and has a good amount of fat on it, lead it up a narrow path, and kill it with a sharp piece of metal fashioned by smelting metal from rocks that are found in some distant mountain.

Then it's even more natural to grind it up and store it in a refrigerator until it gets shipped off to a grocery store so that people that sit at a cubicle 8 hours a day can pick it up, read the date on the package, pay for it and go home.

Then on top of the natural acts that proceeded it, the person naturally turns on his gas stove and adds spices to the meat and cooks it in oils derived from plants. =/

You have a funny definition of the word natural.

I define natural as something that is the norm. It's the food chain, we are part of it and are just more efficient at exploiting it. Going against that norm is not natural - that doesn't make it a bad thing to do, but people are fooling themselves if they don't think this is the order of things on this planet.

 

[KtSlime]

I define natural as something that is the norm. It's the food chain, we are part of it and are just more efficient at exploiting it. Going against that norm is not natural - that doesn't make it a bad thing to do, but people are fooling themselves if they don't think this is the order of things on this planet.

At one point slaves were natural, at one point rape was natural.

Times change, what may have been perfectly fine at one time may not be in the future.

 

[Lamel]

Yeah, cause it's totally natural to have a human lead a bull up to a cow, have her inseminated, lock her in a fenced area till she gives birth, wait till the offspring is of age and has a good amount of fat on it, lead it up a narrow path, and kill it with a sharp piece of metal fashioned by smelting metal from rocks that are found in some distant mountain.

Then it's even more natural to grind it up and store it in a refrigerator until it gets shipped off to a grocery store so that people that sit at a cubicle 8 hours a day can pick it up, read the date on the package, pay for it and go home.

Then on top of the natural acts that proceeded it, the person naturally turns on his gas stove and adds spices to the meat and cooks it in oils derived from plants. =/

You have a funny definition of the word natural.

Yes, it's natural for humans to use our heavily evolved brains to feed ourselves. Delicious.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

At one point slaves were natural, at one point rape was natural.

Times change, what may have been perfectly fine at one time may not be in the future.

So you agree that it's natural, you just don't like it?

And I hardly think terrible things like that, which happen between people, are even remotely comparable to eating animals.

 

[KtSlime]

So you agree that it's natural, you just don't like it?

And I hardly think terrible things like that, which happen between people, are even remotely comparable to eating animals.

Ah, so you are a speciest. Another species has no value to you unless you can exploit if for your own benefit. Sounds reasonable.

 

[dragonlife]

Bacon is amazing.

 

[BronzeWolf]

This discussion has become retarded. You can't really oppose philosophy with another philosophy if you don't ground them with objectivity. Words like "Natural", "speciest" (which really do not mean anything in particular) and not understanding that eating your own species is evolutionarily crippling only leads to a polarizing debate

 

[ZoddGutts]

I'm eating cheese burger with bacon right now!

 

[projekt84]

Ah, so you are a speciest. Another species has no value to you unless you can exploit if for your own benefit. Sounds reasonable.

You do realize you can't compare slavery and rape to eating meat. It's a bit insulting that you do. Sure, the way the world treats animals is a bit messed, but it's more the result of having BILLIONS of people on this planet.

Anecdotally, I haven't seen a single Vegan who has been a strict vegan for many years and has actually been in good health. Feel free to call me on it but it's what I see.

I have seen multiple, multiple stories on vegetarians "resisting the urge" to eat meat. Why is the urge there? No one has the "urge" to enslave people.

 

[East Lake]

You do realize you can't compare slavery and rape to eating meat. It's a bit insulting that you do. Sure, the way the world treats animals is a bit messed, but it's more the result of having BILLIONS of people on this planet.

Anecdotally, I haven't seen a single Vegan who has been a strict vegan for many years and has actually been in good health. Feel free to call me on it but it's what I see.

I have seen multiple, multiple stories on vegetarians "resisting the urge" to eat meat. Why is the urge there? No one has the "urge" to enslave people.

Scott Jurek would be a good example, great ulramarathon runner on a vegan diet.

 

[teh_pwn]

If a Vegan owns a carnivorous pet, would the vegan feed the pet meat or would it abuse it by feeding something that would result in poor health.

:trollPic

 

[projekt84]

Scott Jurek would be a good example, great ulramarathon runner on a vegan diet.

He's interesting. Looking him up he consumes extremely high amounts of calories, which is probably a good reason why he's in such good shape for a vegan.

Still, he's not amongst the best marathoners, and that reason could be for a multitude of reasons.

I still believe you can't be at peak health without some sort of animal products in your life. Plus I haven't seen anyone vegan be able to pack on considerable muscle.