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[Fess]

I mean, I'm ok with that, he's right but there are marketable artistic views and others that aren't, I can have the amazing idea of making my next big story about a crab trying to walking forward and not just left and right, but who's gonna give a shit? Well if I and my fellows from the industry all start telling stories about crabs out of nowhere and call people that don't like crabs "crabists" just because they prefer sharks or shrimps and even make some of them lose their jobs and ruin their lives, of course people not only not gonna give a shit about crabs but will also get against them out of resentment.

That's exactly how it works, make something marketable and make your own views not effect majority of people's games and everyone will be good.

Yeah. Basically stop preaching and stop trying to shove your personal stuff down everybody’s throat and if people say they aren’t interested you should probably listen if you want to sell them something.

 

[BigBeauford]

"It's the haters who didn't buy that are to blame"!

"What about the audience, whom you made this for, not buying it"?

 

[Zacfoldor]

Think of the gaul of having shit to complain about after they released Anthem, Andromeda, and Veilguard back to back.

What a shitty developer this once great company has become.

 

[Wooxsvan]

it’s fine to make art that reflects what you love. but you really can’t blame anyone else when it doesn’t meet your sales expectations

 

[seb85]

Then dont complain about the game sales

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

I agree, but it's crazy how it's taken so much time already. The western videogame industry will nearly go bankrupt before self-correcting.

Yeah the thing with modern AAA games is it takes 4+ years and tens, if not hundreds of millions $ to make one. IDK how many more flops like Veilguard, SW Outlaws, Concord, Suicide Squad, Unknown 9, Redfall, Saints Row, etc this industry can possibly withstand.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Capitalism is sorting this problem out, people will either make things people want to buy or they will go bankrupt

It's just taking a really long time because a lot of these media companies are so big and powerful now and control the thoughts of so many people

Yup.

And many of these political games or tv/movies have already been in production for years, so it gets to a point of no turning back.

I think what happened is Black Panther (black community) and, WW and Captain Marvel (women power) were such humongous successes in terms of reviews and $$$$$ that around that time media all wanted to cash in and churn out as much similar content assuming the gravy train would continue. And the BLM event cemented it more into boosting minorities. All that stuff I wrote were 2017-2020 events. Then might as well add in DEI to it into one giant wave.

Fast forward to 2023 and 2024 and people have had enough being lectured to (even Disney is cutting DEI content now), but it's too late for many companies because they are releasing their product now when the tide turned. They probably started it in 2019 or 2020 when it was peak timing, but now isnt. So unless they scrap it or spend a lot of time adjusting the product, what they got now to sell is ripe for backlash in 2024.

At least that's my opinion as to possibilities of political product freefall. As you said, capitalism will sort things out. It goes to show never bet the farm on something. It might be a long lasting success. Or a temporary fad.

 

[Nickolaidas]

"I know, and something that’s very important to me, is that games are inherently diverse when you think about the size of these teams and the specializations you have within them. When you have diverse, complex, large groups of people coming together to make something, of course, the game is going to be a reflection of those teams"

Who gives a fuck about the composition of the team? Make what the people who are supposed to buy your product want or hire a better composition. This is not some romantic hippy shit where you can express and live your feelings, it's serious business.

This.

If you want to target your game at a niche audience, make the game with a niche budget. Otherwise you are playing Russian roulette.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Art has always been controversial if not political.

Most of the art produced in the middle ages and before is commission based. Artists were executing the orders of their customers, being the political elites of the time and representatives of the church for the most part (Europe). And no, these pieces of art weren't supposed to be controversial or political. For example, a king wanted a painting of his oldest daughter. He wouldn't have appreciated this painting to be "controversial" or political. Of course, if you follow the Marxist naive belief that literally everything is by definition political, then I guess there's no point in discussing anything of the sort to begin with.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I want a game without polarized political tropes in it. So I didn’t buy yours because of that fact. I don’t hate anyone, but I don’t enjoy being spoonfed agendas.

This is extreme, but if a bunch of racist bigots made a game, I wouldn’t buy there’s either for similar reasons.

Just because you think you’re fighting for a good cause doesn’t mean I want to be part of the fight at all. I know how to coexist.

 

[CLW]

Make whatever you want BUT do NOT be surprised when your ROI on hundreds of millions of $ is not worth the risk taken or even lost

The market/consumers do not owe blue haired pedo freaks anything they can chose to buy a product or skip it

 

[cormack12]

 

[Singular7]

I don’t hate anyone, but I don’t enjoy being spoonfed agendas.

I think this is the mistake the woke-inistas make, thinking its about "hate" rather than disagreement.

I completely disagree with the LGBT movement, but I don't hate a single one of them, I get it that they identify with their sexual desires, but I don't want it promoted and I'd venture to guess 99% of people don't want sex as the core message of almost anything.

Make epic games, and if there is 'woke' stuff in it great, that is reality and life, but don't make it "the message" that I have to adopt as my personal philosophy or "I'm a bigot"

 

[Paltheos]

What kind of PR nonsense is this? "The teams are enormous and diverse, so of course the stories will reflect that." Yeah, sure, Busch, but the entire development team isn't the writers.

Anyway, I don't have the hate boner GAF does for DEI in games (as long as it's not thrown in as a token requirement and fits in naturally - cue the quote response to me here about how most games don't do it well). I don't like Veilguard because the footage I've seen makes it look like it's tedious to play and boring to read/make choices in due to watered down dialogue and uninteresting choices without any of the edge and wit that made the series famous.

I also don't like the framing for the defense for the game as people hating it just because of DEI (not that that doesn't exist - see GAF). It feels like a common and cynical deflection to the reality of your game just sucking. Smears DEI itself too. It's a pretty scumbag move.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I think this is the mistake the woke-inistas make, thinking its about "hate" rather than disagreement.

I completely disagree with the LGBT movement, but I don't hate a single one of them, I get it that they identify with their sexual desires, but I don't want it promoted and I'd venture to guess 99% of people don't want sex as the core message of almost anything.

Make epic games, and if there is 'woke' stuff in it great, that is reality and life, but don't make it "the message" that I have to adopt as my personal philosophy or "I'm a bigot"

Exactly. Games shouldn’t be about sex or gender and it shouldn’t matter. I never like Zelda because I thought Link loved the princess, I played because I had a Gawt Damn job to do that required me to set forth on an adventure. None of the games that come out today are classics by any means, they will never have timeless gameplay if they keep focusing on the wrong thing.

The thing I think we are dealing with at the moment is polarization. You have gamers completely fed up, and saying dumb shit into the ether, and then you have LGBTQ+ on their pedestal, gaining a platform through media. And what both extremist sides don’t understand is that both of them are pawns. Gaming journalism wants these two groups to hate each other for the sole purpose of ad revenue which keeps these sites alive. These sites will never side with the “incels” ironically because there’s are more of them. So while gaming companies sell their souls for a cause and continually lose sales because the majority doesn’t want them, game journalists make more money because of the same thing.

 

[Plague Doctor]

Imagine a world where every creative could only make art reflected of themselves in the most superficial aspects and every audience member could only enjoy art reflective of themselves.

That's the shit they really seem to be pushing. Nothing timeless, nothing expansive, nothing fusing worlds and cultures. Just narcissism.

This is why I detest modern western AAA Devs. Self absorbed assholes who should not have a large platform with legacy IPs as they would only make it all about themselves. Shitting on previous fans and dismantling the stories of better authors.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Imagine a world where every creative could only make art reflected of themselves in the most superficial aspects and every audience member could only enjoy art reflective of themselves.

That's the shit they really seem to be pushing. Nothing timeless, nothing expansive, nothing fusing worlds and cultures. Just narcissism.

This is why I detest modern western AAA Devs. Self absorbed assholes who should not have a large platform with legacy IPs as they would only make it all about themselves. Shitting on previous fans and dismantling the stories of better authors.

The hard part is, outside of western devs, most other games are anime with the same 10 or 12 character designs.

 

[Sinfulgore]

These devs need to understand the difference between making your own game and making a game for someone else using their IP. If you want to see yourself reflected in your work then make your own game and do that. This is how every other industry works, you can paint your living room in whatever color you want because it's yours but if someone pays you to paint their living room you paint it in whatever the color the person paying you tells you to.

 

[Rubim]

It already is on huge discount on pc and free on psn lol.
Get it you dipshit. It's one best best 2023 games, if not the best.

And now you lost me with that last statement, in the year of:
Alan Wake 2
BG3
Lies of P
RE4
Hogwarts
System Shock

Impossible to the best of 2023 when BG3 exists.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

No you don't and it doesn't matter nearly as much as this guy thinks. I thought blade was awesome as a kid I didn't care that he was black. I didn't even really think of it. Look at all the Latin support for Goku who is made by a Japanese dude and looks Caucasian

 

[Mister Wolf]

No you don't and it doesn't matter nearly as much as this guy thinks. I thought blade was awesome as a kid I didn't care that he was black. I didn't even really think of it. Look at all the Latin support for Goku who is made by a Japanese dude and looks Caucasian

I noticed that us men will admire heroes and other idealized examples of masculinity regardless of race. Tons of black men love and admire Superman including celebrity athletes like Shaq and Cam Newton.

 

[rofif]

And now you lost me with that last statement, in the year of:
Alan Wake 2
BG3
Lies of P
RE4
Hogwarts
System Shock

Impossible to the best of 2023 when BG3 exists.

Good year.
I would say that hogwarts and re4 are better. But forspoken is better than Alan wake 2 easily. On some good day it’s better than hogwarts.
Anyway. My point was that it should be considered one of the best and not one of the worst. “Gamers” got it twisted.

Don’t know about bg3. Seems like a too long slog. Not a game for me

 

[Rubim]

Good year.
I would say that hogwarts and re4 are better. But forspoken is better than Alan wake 2 easily. On some good day it’s better than hogwarts.
Anyway. My point was that it should be considered one of the best and not one of the worst. “Gamers” got it twisted.

Don’t know about bg3. Seems like a too long slog. Not a game for me

 

[Mister Wolf]

Most of the art produced in the middle ages and before is commission based. Artists were executing the orders of their customers, being the political elites of the time and representatives of the church for the most part (Europe). And no, these pieces of art weren't supposed to be controversial or political. For example, a king wanted a painting of his oldest daughter. He wouldn't have appreciated this painting to be "controversial" or political. Of course, if you follow the Marxist naive belief that literally everything is by definition political, then I guess there's no point in discussing anything of the sort to begin with.

 

[StereoVsn]

What’s amusing is that this supposed diversity basically denies the fact that attractive women exists. Apparently they are outliers and promote bad body image and all that jazz.

I am on a beach vacation with family for Christmas. And while this is admittedly not a mainly US destination, the amount of supposedly non existing good looking women is pretty damn large.

I guess I am just in VR or something, lol. Because clearly this is inconceivable.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Good year.
I would say that hogwarts and re4 are better. But forspoken is better than Alan wake 2 easily. On some good day it’s better than hogwarts.
Anyway. My point was that it should be considered one of the best and not one of the worst. “Gamers” got it twisted.

Don’t know about bg3. Seems like a too long slog. Not a game for me

Yeah I platinumed it and enjoyed the dlc alright. The writing is laughably bad imo especially how obnoxious the main character is, but I liked the world and the twist and the gameplay.

 

[ssringo]

If you "need" to see yourself in your work then fine. But you aren't owed success, money or praise for doing so.

 

[RCX]

 

[rofif]

Yeah I platinumed it and enjoyed the dlc alright. The writing is laughably bad imo especially how obnoxious the main character is, but I liked the world and the twist and the gameplay.

nice! I would say the writting is about the level of ff xv. It's kinda that janky japanese. I found it charming.
How is the dlc? I've not played it yet. I guess it's time on ps5 pro.
I just like the world and atmosphere. There is so much detail in everything and even enemies when you use photo mode. This is one of the worst apocalypses in gaming.... like, they are really fucked lol

 

[DeepEnigma]

Nobody hates you for who you like to fuck. Nobody even cares.

You hate yourselves, which is why you project it onto everyone else in everything you do. That's what people hate.

 

[Varteras]

When you're spending hundreds of millions of dollars of someone else's money, you'd better be less concerned with seeing your narcissistic self in a video game and more concerned about making a product people want to buy. Unless you want to find yourself out of a job. And no, people aren't naive for hating what you and people like you have done to a franchise they used to love. The naivety falls on developers like you.

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

Hetero Male Gamers: This is what we like and want.

Weirdo Devs: Well we've been catering to you for decades so we want to do something different.

Hetero Male Gamers: As you should be catering. We are overwhelmingly the primary consumer. Our money made this industry what it is to today.

Weirdo Devs: Well we're changing it anyway and if you don't continue supporting us you're a (Insert Shaming Language).

Hetero Male Gamers: Go fuck yourself.

Took 13 post to find a straight answer. Well said.

Why is only rockstar pushing this industry? Are they the only developers with vision?
If only a handful of titles make bank, who keeps investing in the same thing over & over.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Aw man, they are totally going to ruin Mass Effect aren't they?

They already did?

 

[Raven117]

Most of the art produced in the middle ages and before is commission based. Artists were executing the orders of their customers, being the political elites of the time and representatives of the church for the most part (Europe). And no, these pieces of art weren't supposed to be controversial or political. For example, a king wanted a painting of his oldest daughter. He wouldn't have appreciated this painting to be "controversial" or political. Of course, if you follow the Marxist naive belief that literally everything is by definition political, then I guess there's no point in discussing anything of the sort to begin with.

Claiming that commissioned European art from the Middle Ages somehow proves that “art hasn’t always been political” is stupid.

Of course, not ALL art is policial or controversial. But it was often used as a medium to push those boundaries.

And I’m definitely not a Marxist.

The issue becomes when this “art” is funded by companies by the tune of millions of dollars. That is a commission,… like you said.

But it’s clear that the tide is turning on this. Companies can’t keep taking these kinds of losses.

 

[Retrofluxed]

Busche can fuck off. This is the first Bioware game I didn't purchase, and never will. Even at 5 bucks it's not worth the money.

 

[newtypepilot]

don't attack your customers. It's not rocket science.

 

[GametimeUK]

Devs need to "see themselves reflected in their work"...

So what about the devs on the team who support Trump?

 

[FunkMiller]

The towering narcissism is off the fucking charts.

‘Devs must be able to see themselves in their games’.

No. Your games have to appeal to the audience. NOT YOU.

The fucking idea is to make something that does both, instead of putting your fragile ego before the people who make you your money.

 

[Diatribe1974]

No, you make the game the people want, not what makes you feel special. Sure, you can try to not do that, heck, you might even occasionally succeed, but more often than not, you're going to fail.

 

[Complistic]

Aw man, they are totally going to ruin Mass Effect aren't they?

I think this game barely made it out. I'm not so sure papa EA is going to continue to let them burn through cash and not turn a profit.

Not saying there won't be another Mass Effect, but will Bioware make it

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Claiming that commissioned European art from the Middle Ages somehow proves that “art hasn’t always been political” is stupid.

Of course, not ALL art is policial or controversial. But it was often used as a medium to push those boundaries.

You have a weird way of saying "you're right, I shouldn't have used these blanket statements that can't withstand a brief look into the history of art"

 

[Rentahamster]

"I know, and something that’s very important to me, is that games are inherently diverse when you think about the size of these teams and the specializations you have within them. When you have diverse, complex, large groups of people coming together to make something, of course, the game is going to be a reflection of those teams,” says Busche “I think we need to consider that we can make the most authentic, best experiences when we’re tying into what makes us as the developers, and you as the fans, when we can tie into those elements that make us distinctly human, and that means differences.”

In Busche’s mind, not embracing the lived experiences of the development team would result in stories and worlds that feel less relatable, less alive. Game developers also need to feel safe in what they do, which ultimately means being able to see themselves reflected in their work.

He's not wrong, but I think what's missing here is a sense of self-awareness that it seems that a lot of these games are prioritizing this over things like gameplay. Representation and having art be an honest expression of the creator is important in any creative work, but this lies on a spectrum depending on what kind of art you're creating. If you're making a book, movie, painting, etc, sure go all out on this. However, this is a game, and the priorities about what makes a game good and especially what makes a game sell well require certain considerations on how to allocate development resources. This combined with greedy executive mismanagement which also puts profit over gameplay considerations leads to a cycle of rushed, badly play-tested, mediocre games and lessons not learned.

It's no surprise that the games with diverse representation and stories that sell great are, well, good games first and foremost.

 

[Raven117]

You have a weird way of saying "you're right, I shouldn't have used these blanket statements that can't withstand a brief look into the history of art"

That goes both ways. And it’s clear not ALL art is political or controversial. Only a pedantic fool would have assumed otherwise

 

[Sakura]

What's their excuse for the poor writing?

 

[strike670]

I have not played the game, but based on reviews and opinions I have seen, the problem with Veilguard is the lack of stakes in the story telling and character development. Everything seems to be very PG-13, especially when you consider the depth of your choices and how they impacted things in previous Dragon Age titles. I do not particularly like the character model graphics either. They look overtly cartoony to me..

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

I have not played the game, but based on reviews and opinions I have seen, the problem with Veilguard is the lack of stakes in the story telling and character development. Everything seems to be very PG-13, especially when you consider the depth of your choices and how they impacted things in previous Dragon Age titles. I do not particularly like the character model graphics either. They look overtly cartoony to me..

Ignoring the trans, binary crap. The dialogue looks like weird edgy gen z crap how teenagers talk to each other. When the game originally was supposed to be set in a dark medieval fantasy world.

 

[strike670]

Well games were made by mostly male nerds for nerds ... now is made by purple hair from 700 genders for purple hair ... thats fair ... mainstream + DEI was bound to make this happen .. games are, as people like to point out, "art" and as such will contain some reflection of the author(s)

So I can agree of some of what he is saying ... he just should acknowledge that while this "diverse" group of people can make games "more diverse" as a reflection .. not all type of games are sold to a diverse group of people unfortunately .. many products have target demographics ... and your product no matter the artist should be focused on them IF you want to maximize sales. If not... thats fine, make your passion project and just accept it will not have ample good reception (by gamers.. the woke access media dosent count) and good sales.. it will be a niche product for a niche public.

Another thing is quality ... DEI culture as implemented today, probably brings quality down by a lot of ways, mostly by not hiring solely by merit, creating a toxic positivy environment and pushing away devs that dont want to participate in this circus.

Yeah, I mostly ignore the distraction of culture war bs. But the game overall seems very sterile and afraid to take any chances, which really conflicts with how things functioned in previous DA titles. I think for most people this is why they dislike it, along with some combat issues. The violence has been heavily toned down in favor of a PG-13 Saturday morning cartoon look. It doesn't really seem like a DA game to me.

 

[strike670]

Ignoring the trans, binary crap. The dialogue looks like weird edgy gen z crap how teenagers talk to each other. When the game originally was supposed to be set in a dark medieval fantasy world.

Yeah, I don't know. Based on some reviews and playthroughs I have seen, your character seems to almost function as some kind of therapist for the group, lecturing them and your options of dialogue seems very limited. It all comes across as something unfamiliar to the world of the previous DA games, which I liked, even Inquisition I enjoyed.

 

[Embearded]

Can he see Texas from his high horse?

Video games are not art, they use art assets but the final product is not art, it's a digital entertainment product that needs to sell millions of copies to break even.

 

[GHound]

Boy, shaming people into desired behaviors sure isn't as efficient as it used to be!