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[mrklaw]

My understanding is that Thebe and Kryptos are appropriate trees to bark up.

My personal conjecture given what I've heard over the last 12 months is that Durango is using a heavily engineered part from AMD that is not easily comparable to any current GPU out there right now. Sony is more likely to use a more directly consumer-derived part, because it's much cheaper and faster to implement, which I'm led to believe because all the PS4 movement devkit-wise has been really, really recent.

Sounds like a repeat of this gen. MS going with a custom GPU, Sony going for off the shelf at the last minute. That part sounds odd though, surely they'd have been in planning for ages now?

I hope that any customisation is suited for what engines do next gen - optimised for deferred rendering and AA

 

[RoboPlato]

Ding.

YAY. What do I win?

 

[phosphor112]

Ding.

Not surprising, though I wish Sony would go something more customized. It's odd though, how MS is apparently ahead in the dev process, while Sony just now seems to be getting into the picture. Is it really just an 8xxx? Or is it possibly an 8xxx that is modified (nothing too major).

YAY. What do I win?

Boobs (\__Y__/)

 

[Reiko]

Not surprising, though I wish Sony would go something more customized. It's odd though, how MS is apparently ahead in the dev process, while Sony just now seems to be getting into the picture. Is it really just an 8xxx? Or is it possibly an 8xxx that is modified (nothing too major).

Sony at this point just wants to make profits.

 

[Globox_82]

Sounds like a repeat of this gen. MS going with a custom GPU, Sony going for off the shelf at the last minute. That part sounds odd though, surely they'd have been in planning for ages now?

I hope that any customisation is suited for what engines do next gen - optimised for deferred rendering and AA

Sounds to me like Sony is not sure what they want or what they need? a lot of talk about RAM "problem" and even with this latest aegis comment. I hope I am wrong because that's where I plan to game. Unless MS console ends up being much better.

 

[RoboPlato]

Not surprising, though I wish Sony would go something more customized. It's odd though, how MS is apparently ahead in the dev process, while Sony just now seems to be getting into the picture. Is it really just an 8xxx? Or is it possibly an 8xxx that is modified (nothing too major).

I'm thinking that Sony has found ways to hit their power goals in a more generalized way using off the shelf parts whereas Microsoft is customizing more to the needs specific games/engines. Sony is likely asking all their first parties what they want and finding some average of all of them.

Boobs (\__Y__/)

I'm OK with this.

 

[DieH@rd]

They're probably doing something similar to Xenos at the time for the 360.

Ding.

So, MS again stealing Sony's CPU designs confirmed?

 

[McHuj]

Ding.

Well there have been rumors of embedded RAM again of some kind (which will be absolutely necessary if the system does only use DDR3/4). The question is how much?

It wouldn't surprise me to see the same setup as 360. CPU+GPU Shaders on one die with embedded RAM and ROPs on another.

 

[mrklaw]

Sony at this point just wants to make profits.

And in order to do so they need to be close enough to Xbox to compete in sales. Need to sell the boxes to make profit on games. Won't sell boxes if its an underpowered piece of crap

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I'm thinking that Sony has found ways to hit their power goals in a more generalized way using off the shelf parts whereas Microsoft is customizing more to the needs specific games/engines. Sony is likely asking all their first parties what they want and finding some average of all of them.

looking at the vita, that's exactly what's gonna happen i think.

And in order to do so they need to be close enough to Xbox to compete in sales. Need to sell the boxes to make profit on games. Won't sell boxes if its an underpowered piece of crap

and here we go again...

 

[Globox_82]

And in order to do so they need to be close enough to Xbox to compete in sales. Need to sell the boxes to make profit on games. Won't sell boxes if its an underpowered piece of crap

yup. Can you imagine releasing AGAIN after MS and this time also having an underpowered console? ugh

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Sounds like a repeat of this gen. MS going with a custom GPU, Sony going for off the shelf at the last minute. That part sounds odd though, surely they'd have been in planning for ages now?

I hope that any customisation is suited for what engines do next gen - optimised for deferred rendering and AA

I can only hope that Sony's first party and specifically ND/Ice Team/SSM/GG have a big say in the specs.

 

[RoboPlato]

I can only hope that Sony's first party and specifically ND/Ice Team/SSM/GG have a big say in the specs.

Given how little we know about what Sony is doing, there's a very good chance that they're the only ones that have say. Hopefully ICE team has been working with them along the way and improving documentation and stuff. IF the first parties are happy then I think most devs will be, as long as some of their knowledge is shared.

 

[Globox_82]

I can only hope that Sony's first party and specifically ND/Ice Team/SSM/GG have a big say in the specs.

somehow I doubt it. Honestly I would rather 3rd party controlling that, since they also know what MS has.Sony studios don't know what MS plans. So for example they might be happy with 4GB of RAM, while 3rd party won't be if they know MS will have 8GB. It would be a nighmare for them

 

[RoboPlato]

somehow I doubt it. Honestly I would rather 3rd party controlling that, since they also know what MS has.Sony studios don't know what MS plans. So for example they might be happy with 4GB of RAM, while 3rd party won't be if they know MS will have 8GB. It would be a nighmare for them

EA and DICE have a good relationship with Sony right now so I can see them maybe adding some input, even if it's mostly first parties giving advice. MS is probably working closely with Epic and CryTek, especially since CryTek is developing an exclusive for them. I could also see Sony talking to S-E and KojiPro.

 

[phosphor112]

Sony at this point just wants to make profits.

They need to focus on two margins. Keeping tech related margins in their favor, while making profit margins.

They can't afford to skimp out on tech. Hopefully their solution will be able to compete.

 

[mrklaw]

looking at the vita, that's exactly what's gonna happen i think.



and here we go again...

Sorry, that was deliberately exaggerating, not meant literally.

MS have really done well this generation and all things equal are surely the favourite next gen in the US at least. Sony need to do something to compete - they are financially stretched but they also can't afford NOT to have a competitive machine.

 

[Mario007]

somehow I doubt it. Honestly I would rather 3rd party controlling that, since they also know what MS has.Sony studios don't know what MS plans. So for example they might be happy with 4GB of RAM, while 3rd party won't be if they know MS will have 8GB. It would be a nighmare for them

I'm pretty sure WWS are consulted on PS4 big time. They pretty much were the ones that demanded the specs in Vita, as Sony themselves confirmed. Also, having said that, it is clear that Sony would be working with people like Epic, Crytek or Square to get their next-gen engines ready and put out hardware that able to run it no problem.

 

[RoboPlato]

They need to focus on two margins. Keeping tech related margins in their favor, while making profit margins.

They can't afford to skimp out on tech. Hopefully their solution will be able to compete.

I still don't see them launching an underpowered machine. It may be less fancy than usual but I think it'll be on par with the next Xbox. I honestly don't expect much of a power gulf, if any. One may handle certain effects better than the other but I have a feeling that platform parity will be pretty common.

 

[systemfehler]

So MS going with a custom GPU and Kinect Next and Sony will buy a cheap off the shelf mini computer but still can't launch because of what? Or is MS just building a custom CPU with ex IBM/AMD folks for Kinect and computational power? Hard to guess - I just hope that Sony doesn't launch last with a underpowered (even if it is only perception) console because that would kill sales pretty fast.

 

[iceatcs]

That's good news for programmers.
Hopefully none of them won't go crazy customise their CPU, otherwise Cell nightmare again.


Maybe that's explained why some rumours about MS have to delayed their nextbox because of some production problem (Customise CPU/GPU need time). Question is how long.

 

[B.O.O.M]

So MS going with a custom GPU and Kinect Next and Sony will buy a cheap off the shelf mini computer but still can't launch because of what?

lol come now ..we have no idea if they wouldn't launch in 2013 or not do we?

 

[phosphor112]

I still don't see them launching an underpowered machine. It may be less fancy than usual but I think it'll be on par with the next Xbox. I honestly don't expect much of a power gulf, if any. One may handle certain effects better than the other but I have a feeling that platform parity will be pretty common.

I honestly expect a slightly more powerful one. Now, when it comes to the OS... not sure if Sony can compete. After all, they've proved time and time again, they are a hardware company. MS, is not.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Given how little we know about what Sony is doing, there's a very good chance that they're the only ones that have say.

Good! And the assumption that Sony is behind because we're not hearing anything could be just that Sony are better at containing leaks.

At this point the 720 sounds too good to be true and the PS4 too bad to be true.

 

[systemfehler]

lol come now ..we have no idea if they wouldn't launch in 2013 or not do we?

No but rumours point in the direction that MS will be ahead of Sony again. In that c ase I expect at least better or equal tech than MS has otherwise the delay has no real use for me as a customer.

 

[RoboPlato]

I honestly expect a slightly more powerful one. Now, when it comes to the OS... not sure if Sony can compete. After all, they've proved time and time again, they are a hardware company. MS, is not.

I just want a quick, lightweight OS for PS4 with a few improvements. Install while downloading, message customization, auto trophy synching, no trophy delay, etc. I don't need a million multimedia features, just make it fast and streamlined compared to the PS3's and keep as much RAM open for games as possible.

 

[Karak]

Sounds intriguing. I wonder which tech partner..........

No clue. I was trying to guess just because of his own excitement level as he is a tech head and he seemed stoked about it but he wouldn't really let out much info. His comment about the 1 big misconception sounded even more interesting to me as there are so many. He is gamer above all else and his excitement over what he is working on shined through pretty easily.

I have to admit again that I was really happy to hear about his work environment. It seems like it is the only time MS teams have all worked towards 1 goal. Though it sounds like they do still have competing ideas where the best one wins kind of thing. It just seemed far more healthy than what I envisioned. They also have frequent devs from other companies come and see what they are working pretty often.

Good! And the assumption that Sony is behind because we're not hearing anything could be just that Sony are better at containing leaks.

At this point the 720 sounds too good to be true and the PS4 too bad to be true.

This is a good point and could just be the slant that the PS3 and its supposed ability were going to offer and what we actually got. Sort of a backlash where people are mentally preparing. I am not saying it was bad, just not exactly what many expected from the hyperbole and such. IMHO.

 

[Reiko]

I honestly expect a slightly more powerful one. Now, when it comes to the OS... not sure if Sony can compete. After all, they've proved time and time again, they are a hardware company. MS, is not.

I hope it's more powerful in real world applications and not just on paper.

I mean the PS3 is more powerful than the Xbox 360 thanks to the Cell CPU... But that difference wasn't enough to run Crysis 1 on console better than the Xbox 360.

In the end, it is true. 3rd Parties should have a bigger say on console power.

 

[SniperHunter]

looks like Sony learned nothing from the nvidia RSX debacle

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Sorry, that was deliberately exaggerating, not meant literally.

MS have really done well this generation and all things equal are surely the favourite next gen in the US at least. Sony need to do something to compete - they are financially stretched but they also can't afford NOT to have a competitive machine.

i agree, but the truth is that we don't know jack shit about these consoles. it's amazing how they're supposed to launch in 2013 and we've got nothing really solid. i hope they unveil this shit in the early months next year, i don't know if i can take much more of this rumormongering.

 

[McHuj]

looks like Sony learned nothing from the nvidia RSX debacle

They learned not to use NVIDIA again.

 

[RoboPlato]

looks like Sony learned nothing from the nvidia RSX debacle

That was more of a last minute scramble than anything else. Whatever they're doing this time around at least seems to be planned out more carefully.

 

[Sid]

i agree, but the truth is that we don't know jack shit about these consoles. it's amazing how they're supposed to launch in 2013 and we've got nothing really solid. i hope they unveil this shit in the early months next year, i don't know if i can take much more of this rumormongering.

Few more slotaku quality next gen rumors and gaf is more likely to implode.

 

[SniperHunter]

That was more of a last minute scramble than anything else. Whatever they're doing this time around at least seems to be planned out more carefully.

a very customized GPU that's not comparable to anything else vs an off the shelf PC part doesn't sound very reassuring to me :/

 

[Sid]

a very customized GPU that's not comparable to anything else vs an off the shelf PC part doesn't sound very reassuring to me :/

Why do you want the ps4 to be more powerful? all rumors have said both the next gen consoles are pretty comparable like this gen.

 

[McHuj]

Some are most likely for tablet but I know for a fact that a couple are for the new system. I reconnected with my cousin, works at MS on integrating tech, who is now working with a handful of new peeps from AMD, IBM, and another soon to be announced partner, on some tech for the new system. He moves between projects as his expertise is needed and his own impression of the attitude on the teams was "Fighting for utter dominance."
.

What's your cousin's definition of "soon"?

 

[dragonelite]

Why do you want the ps4 to be more powerful? all rumors have said both the next gen consoles are pretty comparable like this gen.

Dont you know there can be only one winner.

 

[iceatcs]

The rumours we have so far seem Sony still stick with AMD for while after no more Cell 2.0 rumours.
But I do have lot of problems to classify what MS will have because the CPU rumours keep changing all the time. First IBM, then ARM/Intel, back to IBM with 12 cores, and finally AMD.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Thanks for the posts Karak and aegies.

So for MS, what could the '1 big misconception' about their system be? How many assumptions are there?

 

[B.O.O.M]

No but rumours point in the direction that MS will be ahead of Sony again. In that c ase I expect at least better or equal tech than MS has otherwise the delay has no real use for me as a customer.

But I don't think it will be a similar situation EVEN if this was true. I still expect them to launch in one region next year (japan is my guess) then a February/March release for the rest of the world. As long as the lead isn't like a year long one they should be perfectly fine.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The rumours we have so far seem Sony still stick with AMD for while after no more Cell 2.0 rumours.
But I do have lot of problem to classify what MS will have because the CPU rumours keep changing all the time. First IBM, then ARM/Intel, back to IBM with 12 cores, and finally AMD.

AMD for Sony seems to be a lock now. And for MS it could be that all those companies are involved.(Except Intel)

Which would be crazy.

 

[Sid]

Dont you know there can be only one winner.

Maybe he likes sony's first party stuff more and would only like to buy one console?

 

[B.O.O.M]

Thanks for the posts Karak and aegies.

So for MS, what could the '1 big misconception' about their system be? How many assumptions are there?

That it's a bit more powerful than the next PS? Kinect plays an important role? Possible subscription model? Launch first?

Maybe he likes sony's first party stuff more and would only like to buy one console?

I don't see why that would or should change in either scenario discussed

 

[KageMaru]

Ding.

I question what direction they can go with GPUs though. Unlike Xenos with unified shaders, there is no clear evolution on the horizon for GPUs AFAIK. One of the next steps I've heard in the past is to move closer to software rasterization, but we're still not there yet.

And in order to do so they need to be close enough to Xbox to compete in sales. Need to sell the boxes to make profit on games. Won't sell boxes if its an underpowered piece of crap

Just because there's a slight possibility it won't be as powerful, that doesn't mean it will be an underpowered piece of crap. Sony knows they need enough power to run multi-platform titles.

somehow I doubt it. Honestly I would rather 3rd party controlling that, since they also know what MS has.Sony studios don't know what MS plans. So for example they might be happy with 4GB of RAM, while 3rd party won't be if they know MS will have 8GB. It would be a nighmare for them

While 3rd parties can't divulge what they know due to NDAs, I'm sure they can nudge either company to better suit their needs. IF it were really the case that the PS4 had 4GB of memory while the nextbox had 8GB, we would see 3rd party companies pushing Sony for more memory. Based on more recent rumors, this may actually have happened.

They need to focus on two margins. Keeping tech related margins in their favor, while making profit margins.

They can't afford to skimp out on tech. Hopefully their solution will be able to compete.

Actually this was recently discussed over at B3D. Pushing for tech and pushing for profit are usually at odds with each other. So a good balance will be needed here.

 

[Karak]

What's your cousin's definition of "soon"?

Never asked and this was 3-4 weekends ago. I am assuming that he is on hardware "time" so it could be another couple months. He wasn't specific other than that there is a lot more cooperation from before and some of the people from other companies that have suddenly "left" have found homes in the next gen seats at MS. Which I think we all knew already.

I go up to do some airsoft and BBQ with him in a couple weekends and I will ask him for sure. Due to his position and division if partner's is the right word for him to use than its on the gaming hardware side directly related to the console and not things like the OS/controller/addons currently planned. He rarely interfaces with that crowd as it seems much of that is already decided.

Since he is a tech head it could also be something too techy for me to care. Like some fancy new 3d tech I could care less about

Oh god please let it not be 3d related

Thanks for the posts Karak and aegies.

So for MS, what could the '1 big misconception' about their system be? How many assumptions are there?

I have exhausted myself trying to figure it out. He let slip some information during the 360's early days that was always right and always about the direct interface/power/hardware used and much of it dealt with the ability of the CPU/GPU and its abilities. So I looked at Beyond3d because he doesn't come here. But there are so many assumptions. He just said that it was 1 major misconception and made it appear like I would be happy about it. I also tried to remember everything I had thought, or posted in the past months and some stuff I saw Kage post that I liked and wanted to ask about. He is fairly good at ignoring grilling and instead will suggest things when I am in the right direction.

I really have given up. I know I will see him soon so I figured, screw it I will ask him when I talk to him again.
He actually did say that right after he commented about differentiating easily between what everyone is offering. That was actually right after the assumptions comment now that I think about it because my wife said something about it being a waste that I had a PS3 and a 360.

Kage is right that pushing for tech and for profit are usually at odds. Which funny enough is one of the reasons why I wonder if one of them WILL have a good deal more memory or better innards than another. Only because you either lose money on the hardware initial sale, or on games being purchased and played on your machine because it is a good deal less powerful for 3d party devs. Or you score a hit with a lesser system due to other factors. It is all so random

In my own opinion I don't think that devs would be up in arms if one had 4 and one had 8 megs or if 1 had a better GPU. Especially as many of the 3rd party devs are already accustomed to that with various machine innards and so forth. I mean it might bother them, they might state it but getting one of the big companies to fork over an extra billion from cash strapped Sony or MS...I don't know if a repeat of the Epic Upgrade will ever be repeated.

 

[Sid]

That it's a bit more powerful than the next PS? Kinect plays an important role? Possible subscription model? Launch first?


I don't see why that would or should change in either scenario discussed

Third party games.

 

[Represent.]

hnnng

this mega thread is ridiculous, I wish third party devs could talk and Sony/MS werne't so damn quiet. When the hell are we gonna get some official info? My god.

 

[B.O.O.M]

Third party games.

I honestly don't think it will matter much if they are close enough. Besides an off the shelf component might be more easier to handle for the 3rd parties right? Or am I missing something here

 

[Graphics Horse]

That it's a bit more powerful than the next PS? Kinect plays an important role? Possible subscription model? Launch first?

I suspect either a launch date or power thing for the kind of guy he is, or it could be something else I'm missing. I doubt it's the amount of memory.

I have exhausted myself trying to figure it out. He let slip some information during the 360's early days that was always right and always about the direct interface/power/hardware used and much of it dealt with the ability of the CPU/GPU and its abilities. So I looked at Beyond3d because he doesn't come here. But there are so many assumptions. He just said that it was 1 major misconception and made it appear like I would be happy about it.
I really have given up. I know I will see him soon so I figured, screw it I will ask him when I talk to him again.

Hah, well good luck! Would it make sense if it was a lack of kinect? I don't know your stance on it.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

hnnng

this mega thread is ridiculous, I wish third party devs could talk and Sony/MS werne't so damn quiet. When the hell are we gonna get some official info? My god.

I agree. Nintendo did ~18 months from announcement to release yet nothing from the other two and one for sure on sale in less than a year...

Doesn't make sense to me either.