MS' other divisions won't let them bleed as much as either of the previous generations. More than Sony? Maybe.
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MS' other divisions won't let them bleed as much as either of the previous generations. More than Sony? Maybe.
I agree 100% however I am not sure MS is willing to take a big loss. Weird there some comments that someone wanted MS to leave console industry?
Psychotext
Member
The other divisions are irrelevant. It's all down to the big gorilla and what he thinks is the right way forward.
They've had a fiscally sensible run with the 360 (no console went longer without having a price cut), and that project was a profit on the whole so if they choose to there's no reason they couldn't go big on the next console.
The big gorilla in this scenario would be the investors. And the investors aren't exactly the most supportive group for xbox. I doubt they will take a big hit
bigtroyjon
Member
investors don't make decisions at Microsoft(or any other large cap company).
MS can't afford to lose billions on the next Xbox as well. Of course they could if they wanted based on the cash they have, but they won't, because the company is already struggling for different reasons, investors are not pleased and they can't justify a division which not only doesn't contribute to financial growth but create a hole. As you pointed out they're so focused on not losing money with gaming (although they have returned to red lately) that they didn't even bother cutting the 360 price for so many years.
Microsoft is not going to create a high end console with Kinect 2 bundled in every console and then sell it at 400$ taking a 200+$ hit on every unit. That's just a pipedream.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Since when has Microsoft bent to the will of their investors, time and time again they have shown they will happily go against the grain of wall-street.
Seems like there's allot of anti-Microsoft "wishfull thinking\hoping" by Sony fans here.......
Psychotext
Member
MS only lost billions on the first xbox. The 360 has made a profit overall (and would have been massively profitable were it not for the RRoD).
This next gen is probably their last opportunity to cement their place in the living room before we're all potentially end up doing this sort of thing on tablets or smart TVs and I get the feeling they're going to go for it.
This next gen is probably their last opportunity to cement their place in the living room before we're all potentially end up doing this sort of thing on tablets or smart TVs and I get the feeling they're going to go for it.
LOL they don't take decisions because they trust the management to take good decisions for them, but if they're not pleased with what the manegement is doing they go away and the company goes down.
Simple as that.
bigtroyjon
Member
That's not how it works. Investors are not actually giving money to the company to operate and all that happens when investors start bailing on a company is their stock drops.
The 360 has lost billions initially as well.
They have recouped a lot of money but we don't even know how much the whole project has been profitable.
Also recently the gaming division has been posting losses again.
I don't know what they're gonna do but no, I really don't believe they're going to take huge losses again. Everything so far point to the opposite direction (lack of price cuts on the 360, Kinect pricing, Live policy, etc), they want the money.
But people are free to dream whatever they wish for just to be disappointed later
Evolution_1ne
Banned
lol this is pretty ironic
So investors are now irrelevant and a company can do whatever the management wants even if their stock price sinks?
MS lost 5 billions on first xbox( someone correct me if I am wrong), I doubt they made half of that back considering how much they lost on 360 as well at the start + RROD that everyone seems to forget.
Plust this is interesting
bigtroyjon
Member
For the most part investors are irrelevant aside form the few that actually have enough stock to infuence the board of directors. And even those guys(or funds) don't really have a lot of say unless they can get a majority of the shareholders on their side.So investors are now irrelevant and a company can do whatever the management wanta even if their stock price sinks?
One of the biggest shareholders in MS has been wanting Balmer fired for the last 5 years which should tell you how little influence they have.
True
Captain Tuttle
Member
Regarding investors, I'd imagine that most hold MS stock because of their dividend payments. As long as those stay healthy they most likely don't care what MS does with the next Xbox, it's a relatively small part of their total revenue afaik.
There's a very large space between cheap and profitable (Nintendo) and losing billions (PS3.) For Microsoft the opportunity cost of not exploiting the limited success they've achieved is far greater than burning the division off on a dividend. XBOX has become the 'last stand' for a great number of MS consumer efforts. What else is there for E&D to hang its flag on? I would be surprised if MS didn't try an XBOX Surface.
For similar reasons I expect the PS4 to be a strong yet sensible machine.
Well seeing that there are many bad news about Win8 launch, Win RT bombing, WP 8 not really being relevant at all and Surface not really fulfing expectations I would say the investors are really looking for a success story coming from MS and if the next Xbox will do similarly to the above examples I think that would cause a lot of concern for the investors.
Captain Tuttle
Member
We'll see. They're considered a very safe stock to hold.
Easier third party ports.
Karak
Member
Agreed about investors.
MS, internally, are going all out if internal employees are to be believed. It is something that is a pretty big deal and talked about at all their meetings as the attitude that prevails currently in the games devision. MS considers entertainment a multi-billion a year industry(for them to capture) and everyone from the console companies, devs, wall street all agree that this upcoming gen/tech push is a capture point for the company that can handle it correctly. Losses to garner a several year boon in the billion dollar games/all other living room entertainment industry is tolerable to them.
Evolution_1ne
Banned
would be a really dumb reason to ditch it imo, it's not 2007 anymore developers more than know how to program for the cell, shit the only multiplats what run worse on the ps3 is more to do with the split memory and bottle necked RSX than than they do the cell processor
all they needed is better RAM allocation and a better GPU and they would be set, it would be a massive loss if they dont with the cell, even more so if they go with this weak ass AMD APU we are hearing about, not to mention the sacrifice of BC
True that, it's just they were gearing up to basically their biggest autumn in a decade (they're words not mine) and they failed to deliver, to say the least.
Also people who talk about Sony gimping ps4 or not really supporting it due to lack of money need to realise that right now there are 3 key pillars within Sony: Digital Imagining, Mobile and Gaming. Look at the efforts in the other 2 pillars. Sony is producing right now pretty much the best and most imaginative cameras out there and you'd be hard pressed to find a better counterpart in a given category. In mobile in the space of the year they jumped from 6th to the world's 3rd largest smartphone manufacturer, doubling up the sales from 2011, and are set to release (finally) a flagship phone that can finally compete with Galaxy S series and the iPhone.
To suggest that they would somehow gimp out their third pillar seems ridiculous based on the other precedents.
Psychotext
Member
What they lost on the original xbox is utterly meaningless at this stage. As a project it's long gone.
The 360 is a completely different story.
We know the 360 as a project has been profitable for the last couple of years (I was the one who used to do the cumulative financial reports data on GAF, I've got a pretty good idea of all the numbers). Even taking into consideration things like Zune and WP in the group they gaming profits are still keeping the division stable on the whole. Read the financial reports and you'll see that they're certainly not losing money on gaming right now, they're losing it on everything else that's been lumped into E&D.
The problem is......we've got no concrete info at all so our guesswork has to do for now till they officially reveal it though sony releasing the PS4 which isn't as or more powerful than the 720 would be surprising IMO.
Pot calling kettle black?
MS lost 5 billions on first xbox( someone correct me if I am wrong), I doubt they made half of that back considering how much they lost on 360 as well at the start + RROD that everyone seems to forget.
Plust this is interesting
You're correct that they lost ~5 billion on the OG xbox. However that's considered an eaten cost and is not expected to be made up by anyone within MS or by their investors. What has happened during the course of the 360's life cycle is much more relevant.
Was going to point out the exact same thing.
This is true, but it's also one of the divisions with the biggest growth potential, which means A LOT within the company.
There are multiple reasons to move on from the Cell, but basically it comes down to what the developers want.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
You do realize had the RROD not happened, Microsoft would have made a KILLING on 360 right?
Why would they not support an investment in a winning product line, in Americas 360 is crushing Sony and this is their chance to put the proverbial nail in the coffin(again in Americas)
Unless it has what I want, I won't buy it.
Sony: It better play all my PlayStation games (hardware, or emulation does not matter, just make it work), or the PS3 will be the last system of yours I own.
somuchwater
Member
Dude, look at the graph above. Without the $1 billion dollar write down, Microsoft will still be in the red overall on Xbox.
This is not true at all.
This is a shame because the PS4 is likely going to be a great system.
I agree, we have nothing to base our guesses on. I'm just pointing out that each of the sectors that Kaz has identified as being key to Sony are actually growing at an amazing rate.
This works 2 ways though, if MS postponed the Xbox to solve the RROD issues completely it could have even came out significantly after the ps3 and we really don't know what the situation would be then.
And while Xbox is a very well known brand in America, for most of the world Playstation is still synonymous with gaming, even after Sony's mistakes. I think MS will want to do very good with Xbox as they should, but they won't be able to kill Sony at all unless we have another 600 euro situation again.
Again I'd look at other sectors where they compete (like mobile) where we can see that MS's approach of 'just throw money at it' doesn't neccessarily always work.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
Seriously as many many people have said before what happened with Xbox 1(umm what 12 years ago?) was expected and planned for(cost of entering the market) and is OLD OLD OLD news no one cares and it has NO bearing on today's reality for next generation plans and strategies.
Clearly this thread is full of blinded by the light Sony wishful thinkers so I'll just exit now, please read KageMaru thread above
Tallshortman
Member
The big investors will give input if they're not happy. Management doesn't necessarily get free reign to do whatever the hell they want. Obviously some of their top management are also some of the largest shareholders but still, it's well known the xbox division hasn't exactly ignited a flame of optimism from investors. Many were not happy with the billions down the drain from breaking into the market. You think just because MS makes large profits they want to blow it away on a division that contributes so little to their bottom line? They're more likely to dump that money into the mobile and tablet markets than xbox.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sweetvar26 is alive, owns a Xbox 360 and was involved in some way with the Xbox 360 Mafia 2 and Snoopdog. http://www.flickr.com/photos/24518144@N06/
On Xbox Live his tag is progamer720
Sweetvar26 posts
On Xbox Live his tag is progamer720
Sweetvar26 posts
Only TSMC is making Jaguar according to Hiroshige but there is a port of Pennar (Jaguar APU @20nm or only GNM @ 20nm) to GloFlo. Themesto, Callisto and Thebe are Moons of Jupiter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenom_II#Callisto said:
Kage, you mentioned that even if PS4 is weaker in comparison to XB3 it'll still be able to deliver better results than PS3. Hypothetically speaking, if PS4 had a 77XX GPU along with APU then even with coding to the metal, could they really deliver anything truly next gen given how that GPU's performance crumbles at resolutions beyond 1680x1050 while playing most modern games with high settings (for IQ)?
And console fanboys are at it even before the 2013, let alone E3 2013.
And console fanboys are at it even before the 2013, let alone E3 2013.
thehypocrite
Member
I'm quite sure the next XBox, the Wii U or Steam Box will play all your Playstation games. I mean that's the tiebreaker for you, right?
jeff_rigby
Banned
From the articles I have read, all have been preparing for this since before 2000. 100% agree, trends in everything point to this.
How great of system could it be if it can't even play PlayStation games. We haven't seen any output from it. Other than "Theoretically it will be released in the future so it will have very fast X hardware components", what about it makes it a great system? The PlayStation brand name? It might as well be called something completely different if it can't even play games from the PlayStation platform. Is there word yet on if my PSN Soft will work on it or not? Hopefully Sony will do the right thing and continue (or I guess restart) producing backwards compatible devices.
thehypocrite: I know you are joking, but yeah, I will buy the platform that can play my games. I see no reason to keep brand loyalty if the brand can't keep backwards compatibility with its own games.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
IF the PS4 could play all prior PS games, how Awesome would that be?!! Imagine, 4 generations of games able to be played on one box without having to download anything. All CDs and dvds would work.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Yeah, I haven't really seen MS be that aggressive with pricing in other markets lately. I was expecting their tablet to be much cheaper, but it ended up being quite expensive actually.
Sounds expensive.
And yet majority of the software sold belongs to third parties. No matter how good ND's creations maybe, depending upon the gulf of performance difference (and MS's aptitude for good communications with third parties), the PS4 may become the next Wii (minus the sales of course) pertaining to third party support and third party games' attach rates. If any one of you were going to go with both consoles next, I do believe you'd be choosing the superior version of a multiplat game. This generation, I have seen countless posts from multi console owners on how they only have PS3 for exclusives and 360 for the rest.
Of course if Sony's expectations are met by them achieving the same level of success as GC, then by all means their first parties will ensure that much.
seattle6418
Member
And as a response you will buy an Xbox that plays Playstation games? Right, they don´t.
Seriously people, if backwards compatibility is such a big issue i don´t see how difficult it is to plug your old system in the second HDMI output on the TV.
PS1 and PS2 games will probably by compatible via Gaikai or even PS4, so it´s only a problem really for the PS3 games.
I fail to see the problems with having to switch from HDMI 1 (PS4) to HDMI 2 (PS3). Convenience, maybe, but refusing to buy a system because of that seems a bit too much.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
That's the big question really. I mean are they going to reveal early? They always have I think, especially the past few systems. If a PS Meeting does get announced, we already know what's about to go down though, lol. It would be a hugely satisfying feeling to have something officially announced after all this speculation.
thehypocrite
Member
Well the most likely scenario is that with the PS4 you'll have some level of BC. Any other system out there won't offer BC with your playstation titles at all. So I think your ultimatum rings hollow and cutting off the nose to spite the face behavior.
However I respect that you are entitled to buy whatever console you prefer, I'm just referring to the argument put forth as the reasoning behind your choice.