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VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed
- Thread starter phosphor112
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ChosenPredator
Banned
Why do I suspect this will be the summer of sony for GAF and a plethora of trouncing against Xbox/WIIU, should be an interesting year.
So the new Xbox is 30 odd % short of generation jump!
alexandros
Banned
In my opinion, it's not a matter of cost. Nowadays, available tools are good enough so as to allow even small studios to come up with beautiful-looking games. For instance, this is Hard Reset, a low-budget FPS by a Polish developer:
And this is Diablo III, a big-budget game from Blizzard:
People with notebooks need love too.
WE don't know if they are tied off for compute tasks only
brain_stew
Member
If you're reserving 4 CU for GPGPU work on Orbis where do you think you're going to get the same resources from Durango? You can't reasonably scale down GPGPU tasks from one platform to another as then you're affecting core gameplay mechanics. So you're left with 8 CUs vs. 14 CUs for graphics workloads and Orbis ends up with an even larger edge in visuals.
Or do we end up with the situation where Durango forgoes the issue of context switching and limited graphics resources and forgoes all the complex GPGPU work that's being done on Orbis. So your multiplatform game is missing complex and realistic physics on Durango and yet the graphics are still worse because you still have fewer compute resources, half the ROPS and fewer TMUs?
Both situations paint a very ugly picture.
It's nowhere good enough for 4K though. Of all the people, I'm surprised you are the one who says this.
JimiNutz
Banned
IF (and that's a big is because this is all still speculation) Durango is weaker than Orbis then I hope MS aren't cheeky and offer the console at a cheaper price.
Launching first and cheaper worked out pretty well for them last time, they'd prob be smart to do so again.
I'm really surprised that Sony are going for the more powerful console again.
It didn't exactly work out well for them with PS3 or Vita... Why are they making the same mistakes again?
Even though Sony is teasing their hand first, I still expect MS to launch first and I'm hoping that they are saving the unveiling until they have near final games to show.
Unveil Durango around April/May, huge blowout at E3 in July, and then launch in September/October. Plenty of units in stores for November/December.
Launching first and cheaper worked out pretty well for them last time, they'd prob be smart to do so again.
I'm really surprised that Sony are going for the more powerful console again.
It didn't exactly work out well for them with PS3 or Vita... Why are they making the same mistakes again?
Even though Sony is teasing their hand first, I still expect MS to launch first and I'm hoping that they are saving the unveiling until they have near final games to show.
Unveil Durango around April/May, huge blowout at E3 in July, and then launch in September/October. Plenty of units in stores for November/December.
brain_stew
Member
shinra-bansho
Member
Then I really don't see why anyone takes issue with saying that Orbis has a 1.8 TFLOPS vs 1.2 TFLOPS for Durango.
If, as some suggest, tasks are going to be offloaded from the CPU onto the GPU in multiplatform development going forward then ultimately Orbis will have more resources to work with regardless.
It was blu ray that really dragged them down. That and overly expensive and hard to develop for novelty tech. Once all that worked itself out Sony started bouncing back.
Frankly I was a mostly Microsoft guy this gen. And I'm about to jump ship if rumors hold true.
My guess is that the Xbox "Core" (for core gamers, no retard packs this gen) comes out at $199 with only a built in Kinect mic or headset. The bells and whistles model will come in at $299-349 with the Kinect camera.
You can probably raise those prices $100 for the real launch price, but if I was MS, I would go for those prices if it was feasible.
IF MS can get the Xenon on the die for BC, that would really help their goals.
Sure.
I think, though, we should clarify something - what we're calling 'compute tasks' may well be tasks that fall in the realm of graphics. New graphics techniques may use 'compute tasks' in their passes.
These 4CUs can be used for compute shaders, pixel shaders, or vertex shaders. Even if the dev is using for compute shaders, it may be as part of the rendering. For example IIRC UE4 - or at least the original UE4 pipeline - had two compute shader phases as part of its lighting calculation.
But per the above, that's a misnomer. There may be lots of 'compute' work in graphics going forward.
Putting that aside, the 4 CUs can also be used for pixel and vertex shaders.
The only question here is whether the 4 CUs have to be addressed by the application separately from the other 14, or can be addressed together as 18 transparently. And the answer to that question has ramifications for how easily the 4 can be used if a game isn't doing much compute shader work, or if they'd likely be ignored in games where that was the case. If devs are getting 'good enough' performance for their pixel/vertex shaders out of the 14 relative to other skus and they don't have any compute shaders, they might well ignore them. On the other hand, depending on the setup and or the game, it might be pretty easy to mix them in for vertex/pixel shaders even if they do have to be addressed separately.
tldr: I think it'll be relatively very few games that just skip over those 4 CUs, even if they live in a totally separate world from the other 14
brain_stew
Member
As it seems to be needed to be repeated every page. Sony aren't releasing a "powerful" "high end system" this time. Its the most conservative design in their history, using slightly customised off the shelf parts to create a single chip system at launch with low motherboard complexity. Sony have already radically changed their strategy and approach, people are simply struggling to recognise this because Microsoft have gone so low end.
amstradcpc
Member
As i see it:
-multiplatforms will be coded with the least common multiple and not near to the metal. So they will not make many GPGPU stuff out of the CPU vector units. In these cases both CPUs will bring the same result as they are the same and the GPUs will be used in a standard way: so 12 CUs of rendering power for Xbox and 18 for PS4, and the rops and bandwitdth in the Sony side. Results: better frame rate for Sony.
-Exclusives in the Sony side will use the 4 special CUs for crazy physics effects and as they code to the metal the 14CUs will perform like more than 14.
-multiplatforms will be coded with the least common multiple and not near to the metal. So they will not make many GPGPU stuff out of the CPU vector units. In these cases both CPUs will bring the same result as they are the same and the GPUs will be used in a standard way: so 12 CUs of rendering power for Xbox and 18 for PS4, and the rops and bandwitdth in the Sony side. Results: better frame rate for Sony.
-Exclusives in the Sony side will use the 4 special CUs for crazy physics effects and as they code to the metal the 14CUs will perform like more than 14.
I think it's a GAF thing. I mean, I understand how Sony has garnered so much "love", great 1st party that indicates they care about catering to varied gamers' tastes, free online, etc but c'mon, credit where credit is due.
All true, but we have no idea what the CPU setups are this point. I'd rather wait till we have all the information so we get a global view of each machine's positives and negatives. Don't get me wrong I don't think and never have this special sauce nonsense then again I don't see a massive difference between each machine if the difference is around 30% flops like for like, unlike brain_stew!
gundamkyoukai
Member
I don't see why the 4CU for Orbis will be ignored devs will need to used them next gen CPU are shit .
Also i don't think they will be that hard to use in the first place .
Durango will also have parts to make it easier on the CPU that devs will use.
Apart from the RAM - props to Sony for including GDDR5 - the PS4 is shaping up to be the absolutely bare minimum one can expect from a generation of consoles that are launching 7/8 years after their predecessors, and it's only the the weaker Durango that is making Sony's effort seem better.
michaelius
Banned
That graph is a bit misleading - 1680x1050 is at least 90% more pixels to push than console native 720p.
JimiNutz
Banned
Yeah, Sony did ok in the end but this has still been their worst generation.
I was also mainly a MS guy this gen but that isn't because of any blind loyalty. MS started off strong this gen and by the time that the PS3 actually became appealing I'd already had my 360 for 2 or 3 years and was more than happy with it.
You'd assume that MS would want to repeat this strategy, launch first and come in at very good value for money. Get people hooked on the system early so that they are too invested to bother going elsewhere. A strong start is important for MS.
A $199 or $250 package at launch would be amazing! I have my doubts though. I have a bad feeling that MS will not come in much/any cheaper than Sony and I think that would be a mistake.
JimiNutz
Banned
Sorry is I misunderstood, but if the rumours are to be believed then how much more (roughly) would then Orbis cost to produce than the Durango?
If MS have gone so 'low end' then could they not charge $200 for a Durango while Sony is forced to charge $300 or $350 for an Orbis (or are we not talking that much difference?)
Even if Sony has taken a more conservative approach surly it can only be viewed in comparison to the competition?
A cheaper xbox that launches months before the next playstation is probably going to dominate in the US/UK and then Sony are in the same position all over again - doing well in EU and Japan (which seems to be an ever shrinking market).
It just looks like history is repeating.
Yes they it is......but I addressed that in the next sentence which you did not quote. And of course, we still don't have the full details of 720 cpu, what with aegis saying that it is appreciably different from ps4 cpu, and bkillian in B3D (former staff of MS) suggesting that MS can beef up the vector units in the cpu, just like they did in Xenon. If so, and depending on how different and beefed up it might be, it will go a long way in doing compute work because, flop for flop, compute work are still more suited to the cpu. Now mind you, I am not saying that the 720 cpu is more powerful, infact, I believe they are both the same, especially in light of all the secret sauce talk earlier being a misunderstanding of the terms in the durango gpu docs, because as far as I am concern right now, the only secret sauce in the 720 is the eSRAM and the DMEs, both of which are necessary in order to negate the bandwidth situation.
So if they both have the same cpu and the 4CUs are exclusively reserved and optimized for compute work then for games that use a lot of compute resources, the ps4 will be better off. But if they are standard CUs then their use in normal graphic rendering will come to bear when comparing multiplatform titles. All I am saying, and which I addressed in my previous post is that we have report from at least two sources saying that these 4CUs would be used for compute work and I am sure there is a reason for that as it would be pointless to point that out specifically otherwise.
brain_stew
Member
I really don't see why these 4 reserved CUs are being spun as a negative for Orbis. They're a hardware optimisation and customisation designed to increase efficiency.
From complex cloth physics to compute shaders that enable new lighting models, its widely expected that compute work will make up a large chunk of work performed by any truly next generation game engine. We also know that GCN can have issues context switching between compute tasks and traditional graphics workloads. So Sony have reserved a small pool of resources to shield developers from this headache and to prevent any any nasty bottlenecks.
Durango is still going to be expected to perform these same functions, but seemingly developers are going to have to be careful to manage resources and context switching themselves, whereas it will be automatic and free of pitfalls on Orbis.
Will every game require enough compute resources to keep 4 CUs full? Probably not at launch but it shouldn't be uncommon shortly after launch, compute shaders are all a very important component of next generation engines and its about time we saw some more complex physics in games.
The point is that these resources aren't lost, they're going to be a critical component of next generation engines and Durango is still going to have to dedicate resources to them just the same.
The 14CU vs. 12CU comparison isn't a like for like comparison.
From complex cloth physics to compute shaders that enable new lighting models, its widely expected that compute work will make up a large chunk of work performed by any truly next generation game engine. We also know that GCN can have issues context switching between compute tasks and traditional graphics workloads. So Sony have reserved a small pool of resources to shield developers from this headache and to prevent any any nasty bottlenecks.
Durango is still going to be expected to perform these same functions, but seemingly developers are going to have to be careful to manage resources and context switching themselves, whereas it will be automatic and free of pitfalls on Orbis.
Will every game require enough compute resources to keep 4 CUs full? Probably not at launch but it shouldn't be uncommon shortly after launch, compute shaders are all a very important component of next generation engines and its about time we saw some more complex physics in games.
The point is that these resources aren't lost, they're going to be a critical component of next generation engines and Durango is still going to have to dedicate resources to them just the same.
The 14CU vs. 12CU comparison isn't a like for like comparison.
lol, good one...
gundamkyoukai
Member
Anybody thinking that MS will launch at those price are crazy .
Also if MS are going to push Kinect hard but have a sku without it would make no sense imo .
I expect both Sony and MS will launch at $350 the lowest without subscription .
MS system BOM is not going to be so cheap that they can charge 100 less than Sony without take a hit .
Also you want to get that early profit and leeway for price cuts .
Eh I never stated that they are a negative. If anything I am pointing that out as a positive, especially if both cpu are the same and more so if they are some how optimized for compute work more so than the normal CU.
launching a new console at the same price the current console is? Never. They want to build some 'premium' margin (even allowing for 360 price cuts). The current consoles pricing means the new machines won't be below $299, and $349-399 is more likely IMO.
Also WiiU's crazy launch pricing suddenly makes either Durango or Orbis look huge value for money at the same price.
Exactly, still expecting a 449 launch price
They want to keep 360 alive and offer both a lower and higher tier console...
Chuck Norris
Banned
Can somebody put together a rough compilation of the prices using the equivelant PC parts? Roughly what price range are we expecting?
brain_stew
Member
I'm not referring to any post in particular ( I hadn't even read your post when I wrote that), just the general sentiment of this thread. Some people have used this factoid to downplay the gap between Orbis and Durango and that's dumb. You're still comparing a 1.2tf GPU to a 1.8TF GPU any which way you slice it.
JimiNutz
Banned
If the current hardware rumors are accurate and MS and Sony both launch at 499 then I will 100% 'jump ship' and go Sony only.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
The price needs to be reasonable, but it doesn't necessarily have to be lower than Sony's, it all depends on what each of them has to offer. I'd say there are four main factors that will decide the sales of next gen systems, and while price points are certainly one of them, games, experiences (online, services, connectivity, input devices...) and marketing will be equally important.
Man is Naughty Dog going to destroy those reserved CU's later in the systems life. I think you'll hear small sobs coming from the system when playing Uncharted 5.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Right now I feel the same. I'm gonna wait to see what kind of new first party output both will have. Sony is already stronger there right now, but I'm not that interested in sequels to the current portfolio - from both.
JimiNutz
Banned
This is the same for me. I think I've had enough of Halo and Gears and am not interested in any Sony IP outside of The Last of Us, which looks pretty cool.
Here's hoping both MS and Sony have interesting new games.
If MS gets Xenon on die & BC at $349-449 (249-349 would be better), they can kill the 360 without killing the 360 while forcing an upgrade on casuals. A $199-299 price point is MS going "for the jugular" of Sony. If BC is included, MS can keep the paywall to subsidize the price.
Chuck Norris
Banned
You'd think relatively conservative specs wold increase the chances of hardware BC
Not gonna happen, too high. Expect $400 max.
Xbox 360 launched for $299/$399. Sony learned their pricing lesson with PS3.
Warm Machine
Member
Both the Dev kits for the OG Xbox and Xbox 360 got final graphics cards within 3 months of shipping. Historically they have cut it close. No clue about this round though.
I understand your disappointment but specs aren't everything.
Wonder what will be Orbis/Durango prices at launch...
Yeah, it's a saturated market of crappy schizophrenic potatoes that does everything, but nothing excellent.
There's not one single box that does it right yet. Some do an ok job, but not none do it great, even a hacked AppleTV box is pretty shit relative to potential. Nor "do Smart-TVs" (only in the name..). If MS can penetrate the market with a perfect storm of good hardware / good software, plus implementing good solid standards, there's nothing to stop them from becoming...the saturater (that's not a real word, I know..).
There's also a good story about smartphones vs compact cameras and music players somwhere in the vincinity of this..
systemfehler
Member
How much does a Galaxy S3 cost? It is all about marketing - if people think you offer a superior lifestyle product you can sell a 720 for 599$ but if people think you sell a toy for children even 199$ might be a stretch. There are enough people with money, parents who pay what their children wants, maybe a subscription based payment, etc. you can get away with anything if you know how.
swordsman720
Banned
Gemüsepizza;47288219 said:
Do you recall Xbox360 is Xbox 1.5 by Sony?
In the end I hope MS don't f*cked this up for Durango.
1st console =Xbox720
2nd = PS4
Could line up with the thread about the MS ninjas and the increased safety measures. I still find it hard to believe that they have their console already over one year nearly unchanged and that we will see the final console in stores maybe in six months from now...
I know, developers have to know what they are dealing with and changes late in the development cycle could cost a fortune but why do you need almost two years to finalize your console? And MS is known for their great developer tools, so maybe those changes could be implemented very quickly...
World has changed, both companies can't/don't want to take huge losses on their hardware anymore.
Inflation.
They see people walking with 800$ phones. Why can't they pay 499 for a way more powerful console?
I will be very surprised if they launched at 399 or below.
My golden rule for pricing is: the amount that's reasonable * 1.25.
I can see both consoles being sold at 449 or 499 even. Simple reason: because they can, and they have low priced alternatives for the regular folks...
Chuck Norris
Banned
Did they change in specs though?
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Yes, if they are in limited supply before Xmas then why would they sell them at cost or below when they could still sell 100% of stock at a higher price?
Subsidized S3 goes for $199.
Sony took so much flak for pricing PS3 $599, you think they (or Microsoft) want to risk launching console at that price again?
amstradcpc
Member
OG Xbox graphics chip was downgraded. I remember it went from 300mill/polys sec triangle rate to 125mill and finally to 116 ( not transformed triangles ).