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Virginia's Governor Just Gave More Than 200,000 Convicted Felons the Right to Vote

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DrForester

Kills Photobucket
For anyone trying to defend this, there's a great paragraph at the end of the NBC piece about this story...

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...lenge-restoration-felon-voting-rights-n566016

But Virginia's felon voting restrictions, like those of several other states, derives from its 1902 Constitutional Convention, which had the explicit purpose of disenfranchising African-Americans. The Constitution that emerged included a range of devices to limit black voting, including a poll tax, a literacy test, and a ban on voting by those convicted of a broad range of crimes. Asked by a journalist whether this amounted to discrimination, one of the convention's most influential members, Carter Glass, replied: "Discrimination! Why that is exactly what we propose. To remove every negro voter who can be gotten rid of, legally, without materially impairing the numerical strength of the white electorate."
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
If this affects enough people to make a difference in elections then clearly we are imprisoning way too many people.

Those affected first hand should have the right to vote to change the system.
 
I am almost convinced, but I'll have to hold judgement until I see a minority population stats for Felons and Misdemeanors separately. If the former is low than I see no reason why not to keep the law. If the former is high in terms of population, then I can see the need to felons vote.
 

hiryu64

Member

This article actually gives a lot of good context regarding the issue.
Responding to the announcement, Brian Coy, a spokesman for McAuliffe, a Democrat, said: “The Governor is disappointed that Republicans would go to such lengths to continue locking people who have served their time out of their democracy. While Republicans may have found a Washington lawyer for their political lawsuit, they still have yet to articulate any specific constitutional objections to the Governor exercising a power that Article V Section 12 clearly grants him.”

That appears to refer to the following language in the state’s constitution: “The governor shall have power … to remove political disabilities consequent upon conviction for offenses committed prior or subsequent to the adoption of this Constitution.”
To be clear, this whole conflict is less about McAuliffe passing a law that is unconstitutional and more about whether the interpretation that his action is based on is unconstitutional.
A Republican lawsuit would be the second major legal fight over Virginia’s election rules this year. Democrats are challenging the state’s 2013 voter ID law.
The disenfranchisement issue has come up before in recent history, except the tables were turned.
“His predecessors and previous attorneys general examined this issue and consistently concluded Virginia’s governor does not have the power to issue blanket restorations,” Norment said. “By doing so now with the acknowledged goal of affecting the November election, he has overstepped the bounds of his authority and the constitutional limits on executive powers.”
This is interesting to me. I would like to see where this goal of "affecting the November election" is acknowledged. I understand the suspicion that this whole thing is a move of political expedience, but without proof positive that this is the primary motivator for the EO, I'm skeptical. I must admit, however, that even if it were a political powerplay, I am fundamentally for the restoration of voting rights of felons for reasons I've stated already.
That appeared to refer to a conclusion reached by Mark Rubin, a top lawyer for McAuliffe’s predecessor as governor, Democrat Tim Kaine.

“A blanket order restoring the voting rights of everyone would be a rewrite of the law rather than a contemplated use of the executive clemency powers,” Rubin wrote in 2010. “And, the notion that the Constitution of the Commonwealth could be rewritten via executive order is troubling.”
McAuliffe clearly doesn't see this as a rewrite of the law. Again, no law is being changed or passed here; it is merely being interpreted differently. IANAL, but from what I read from this and other articles, he is right in that there isn't any need to alter the law for what he is doing, and I don't think the GOP has a case here. But we'll see what happens.
Rubin didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. But William Hurd, a Virginia election lawyer who served as the state’s first Solicitor General from 1999 to 2004, said in an interview that other administrations had reached the same conclusion. “I do think it is significant that for many years, governors of both parties have not thought they had the sweeping authority that this governor believes he has,” said Hurd.

A 2013 bipartisan commission appointed by then-Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli to consider ways of restoring felon voting rights concluded that the governor can restore rights on an “individualized basis,” not via a sweeping order. “[A] court likely would find it difficult to sustain a Governor’s exercise of this clemency power in so sweeping a manner that the Constitution’s general policy of disenfranchisement of felons is voided,” a report issued by the panel concluded. Earlier that year, Republicans in the legislature blocked an effort to amend the state’s constitution to restore the rights of non-violent felons who had paid their debt to society. That measure was supported by then-governor Bob McDonnell, a Republican.
I found this curious, so I did a bit more digging. Turns out that Politifact covered his about-face on the issue. This was, in fact, a case of someone's views evolving over time, and Cuccinelli appeared to be sincere about wanting to restore voting rights (he was also met with suspicion from VA Democrats). I haven't looked too deeply into the findings of his commission, but it gels with earlier statements in the article.
Still, Coy, the McAuliffe spokesman, noted that Rubin’s letter on behalf of the Kaine administration cited no specific language in the state constitution or in Virginia law to support the view that a broad restoration of felon voting rights exceeds the governor’s authority. And he said McAuliffe’s order was in sync with the Cuccinelli panel’s finding that rights restoration must be on an individualized basis. That’s because McAuliffe will regularly sign a document that restores rights to any former felon who fits the criteria, so the process won’t technically be automatic. Coy said McDonnell did the same thing during the final year of his governorship, though McAullife has somewhat expanded the pool of ex-felons who are eligible.
I'm not entirely clear on this or how it's in sync with the idea of restoring rights on an "individualized basis," but I suppose that will be tested in the coming months.
Virginia’s felon voting ban, like those of several other states, is derived in part from its 1902 constitution, which had the explicit purpose of disenfranchising African-Americans. Previous versions of the state constitution had disenfranchised people for certain crimes, but the 1902 constitution greatly broadened the number of crimes that led to disenfranchisement, as well as including a range of other devices to limit black voting, including a poll tax and a literacy test. Asked by a journalist whether this amounted to discrimination, one of the most influential members of the convention that produced the constitution, Carter Glass, replied: “Discrimination! Why that is exactly what we propose. To remove every negro voter who can be gotten rid of, legally, without materially impairing the numerical strength of the white electorate.”
That's pretty damning from a moralistic standpoint on why felons should be denied voting IMO. Virginia's disenfranchisement of felons clearly comes from a point of racial animus--perhaps not entirely, but in no small part. Permanently barring those that they despised from participating in their society under the guise of justice. Other innocent and/or white lives might get caught in the crossfire, but that's a small price to pay for ensuring continued hegemony.

I really think that it's morally reprehensible that we enshrine within law the creation of a permanent undercaste of people, especially when the roots of these laws are laid so bare. But that aside, I'd be interested in seeing how this whole situation plays out. The only foul play that could be perceived here is the EO's proximity to the general election.
 
Which implies that these laws were in place before Blacks were given the right to vote.

But anyway maybe you misunderstood my point. My point was that we should be keeping people OUT of jail instead of bandaid solutions. That way they won't have to worry about losing the rights to vote.

That applies to EVERYONE.
It's been very interesting watching you argue from the starting point that felons shouldn't get to vote, like that was always what America envisioned instead of a fairly recent Republican tactic to suppress liberal voting.

You're almost starting to see how minorities are disproportionately targeted and jailed and how them losing voting privileges as a result of that is a part of the system that oppresses them.
 

hiryu64

Member
I am almost convinced, but I'll have to hold judgement until I see a minority population stats for Felons and Misdemeanors separately. If the former is low than I see no reason why not to keep the law. If the former is high in terms of population, then I can see the need to felons vote.

http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687

Take a look at Figure 5 on page 8 of this study:
L1XtdI0.png

Keep in mind that this data was collected and aggregated in 2010, but the statistics are unlikely to be that different. Really there's all kinds of fun (read: depressing) data in this report.
 
I'm going to go on a limb: you aren't actually doing any looking.

I actually did and can't find them separated.

The point is, if the felon population is insignificant compared to minorities jailed for misdemeanors, then I see zero reason to let them vote.

If it is a decent population, then I would say let them vote because then you could claim it's disenfranchising.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
For anyone trying to defend this, there's a great paragraph at the end of the NBC piece about this story...

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...lenge-restoration-felon-voting-rights-n566016

But Virginia's felon voting restrictions, like those of several other states, derives from its 1902 Constitutional Convention, which had the explicit purpose of disenfranchising African-Americans. The Constitution that emerged included a range of devices to limit black voting, including a poll tax, a literacy test, and a ban on voting by those convicted of a broad range of crimes. Asked by a journalist whether this amounted to discrimination, one of the convention's most influential members, Carter Glass, replied: "Discrimination! Why that is exactly what we propose. To remove every negro voter who can be gotten rid of, legally, without materially impairing the numerical strength of the white electorate."

Needs to be requoted.

I actually did and can't find them separated.

The point is, if the felon population is insignificant compared to minorities jailed for misdemeanors, then I see zero reason to let them vote.

If it is a decent population, then I would say let them vote because then you could claim it's disenfranchising.

Let's say the felon population is one (1). And that felon has served the entirety of their sentence. Why would you want to block that former felon from voting?

Explain your position.
 
Are we talking murder/assault with a deadly weapon type felons or are we talking didn't pay a bill on time/got caught smoking a joint one time felons?
 

Drakeon

Member
Are we talking murder/assault with a deadly weapon type felons or are we talking didn't pay a bill on time/got caught smoking a joint one time felons?

There is no distinction my man. A felon is a felon, so if you got hit with a felony for drug possession back in the 80s, unless your state passed a law to reduce those sentences (much like California did in 2014), they both lose their voting rights all the same.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Are we talking murder/assault with a deadly weapon type felons or are we talking didn't pay a bill on time/got caught smoking a joint one time felons?
Right now there is no distinction. You just can't vote.

If you sever your sentence, there should be no distinction. You should be able to.
 
Needs to be requoted.



Let's say the felon population is one (1). And that felon has served the entirety of their sentence. Why would you want to block that former felon from voting?

Explain your position.

Because in this case:

1. That one felon did a felony, a serious crime. More than all the other criminals in the country since your example was one guy.

2. We can't us disenfranchisement because there's only one guy.

So if there was only ONE fellow as you put in your example why WOULD you let him vote? He is one guy who did a crime no one else arrested came close to, and there isn't some hidden sends.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
I don't understand the logic in not allowing prisoners to vote. It just seems so uncivilised. How can a country call itself a democracy when only certain citizens get to vote? It's total savagery. Prisoners are human and they are citizens. If anything, prisoners should be encouraged to vote and get their own representative so their votes aren't spread to nothing.
 
You did the time, you should be able to vote. Rehabilitation also involves being allowed to be a citizen again. Treating ex-felons as if they're not citizens alienates them further.
 
The US is practically alone in denying voting rights to prisoners, the rest of the world keeps going just fine (or even better) with prisoners voting.
And I'm always amazed at the rhetoric some people spout.

"Guns are a right, therefore you can't take them away from me no matter what."

"Healthcare is a privilege, you should only get it if you earned it through hard work."

"Voting is a right, unless you are a minority or went to prison, in which case go fuck yourself."

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disgusted.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Someone said something similar earlier in the thread... is there any evidence that giving felons the franchise reduces recidivism? (FTR: I'm fully in support of restoring their voting rights.)

No, but it certainly doesn't help to put up punitive measures that further sever ex-felons from their community.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Because in this case:

1. That one felon did a felony, a serious crime. More than all the other criminals in the country since your example was one guy.

2. We can't us disenfranchisement because there's only one guy.

So if there was only ONE fellow as you put in your example why WOULD you let him vote? He is one guy who did a crime no one else arrested came close to, and there isn't some hidden sends.

Why wouldn't I let someone that has completed their entire prison sentence AND their probation have a normal life? People who have done that have shown that they are both able to serve the penalty for their crime AND have readjusted to society. Why should any person who has been rehabilitated be continually punished for a crime that they already served their punishment for?

Other than pure blind-willed vindictiveness.
For anyone trying to defend this, there's a great paragraph at the end of the NBC piece about this story...

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...lenge-restoration-felon-voting-rights-n566016

But Virginia's felon voting restrictions, like those of several other states, derives from its 1902 Constitutional Convention, which had the explicit purpose of disenfranchising African-Americans. The Constitution that emerged included a range of devices to limit black voting, including a poll tax, a literacy test, and a ban on voting by those convicted of a broad range of crimes. Asked by a journalist whether this amounted to discrimination, one of the convention's most influential members, Carter Glass, replied: "Discrimination! Why that is exactly what we propose. To remove every negro voter who can be gotten rid of, legally, without materially impairing the numerical strength of the white electorate."

Oh...yeah, that's why. Fucking blatant racism.
 
Why wouldn't I let someone that has completed their entire prison sentence AND their probation have a normal life? People who have done that have shown that they are both able to serve the penalty for their crime AND have readjusted to society. Why should any person who has been rehabilitated be continually punished for a crime that they already served their punishment for?

Other than pure blind-willed vindictiveness.

Because that way you can oppress and systematically destroy the lives of minorities.
 

Cyan

Banned
Because in this case:

1. That one felon did a felony, a serious crime. More than all the other criminals in the country since your example was one guy.

2. We can't us disenfranchisement because there's only one guy.

So if there was only ONE fellow as you put in your example why WOULD you let him vote? He is one guy who did a crime no one else arrested came close to, and there isn't some hidden sends.

Your whole argument for preventing felons from voting, from what I was able to actually comprehend, was that there were a lot of them and they would vote for corrupt politicians because ??? like calls to like ??? and this would change election outcomes which would ??? cause people to get away with more crimes ??? or possibly just corporations to get away with stuff and anyway it would be bad.

If there was only one felon, wouldn't this completely collapse?

2. We can't us disenfranchisement because there's only one guy.

Disenfranchisement literally just means depriving someone of the ability to vote. It doesn't matter if that's one guy or a lot of people.
 
Your whole argument for preventing felons from voting, from what I was able to actually comprehend, was that there were a lot of them and they would vote for corrupt politicians because ??? like calls to like ??? and this would change election outcomes which would ??? cause people to get away with more crimes ??? or possibly just corporations to get away with stuff and anyway it would be bad..

Because then black people would vote for politicians who support their interests.
 
Why wouldn't I let someone that has completed their entire prison sentence AND their probation have a normal life? People who have done that have shown that they are both able to serve the penalty for their crime AND have readjusted to society. Why should any person who has been rehabilitated be continually punished for a crime that they already served their punishment for?

Other than pure blind-willed vindictiveness.

Oh...yeah, that's why. Fucking blatant racism.


Not everything is racism and the example you gave before would exclude that from even being a possibility since there would in your example be ONE guy.

You broke the law which protects the rights of citizens, why should the felon assuming race is not involved, be allowed to vote?

Jim the Italian killer shot a guy because he wouldn't buy his watches.

He infringed on someone's rights and ended their life.

He gets 5 years for example, why should we allow him to vote?

Instead we should open the door for Jim to find it easier to get a job post jail, so Jim has profits and a healthy life.
 
I feel the need to point out that all else aside, over half of the people convicted of felonies in the US are convicted for drug related crimes, and only around 10% committed violent crimes.

And let's not pretend disenfranchisement is the only issue convicted felons have to face. Getting a job for them is far, far harder than for someone who was never convicted. Which of course makes it harder for many to survive without committing another crime.

I think the fact that people who have been convicted of a felony have so many issues facing them AFTER they've served their sentence is awful, and a huge part of why so many fall back into crime
 
Your whole argument for preventing felons from voting, from what I was able to actually comprehend, was that there were a lot of them and they would vote for corrupt politicians because ??? like calls to like ??? and this would change election outcomes which would ??? cause people to get away with more crimes ??? or possibly just corporations to get away with stuff and anyway it would be bad.

If there was only one felon, wouldn't this completely collapse?



Disenfranchisement literally just means depriving someone of the ability to vote. It doesn't matter if that's one guy or a lot of people.

If there was only one felon the other argument I see gere falls as well, race disenfranchisement.

With the one guy example that's no longer the case and yes, some of my points don't work as well but it also changes the story.
At this point most of the hundreds in jail are there for misdemeanors and we have one guy they did something so bad he is te only felon.

Why would you let him vote?
 
Not everything is racism and the example you gave before would exclude that from even being a possibility since there would in your example be ONE guy.

You broke the law which protects the rights of citizens, why should the felon assuming race is not involved, be allowed to vote?

Jim the Italian killer shot a guy because he wouldn't buy his watches.

He infringed on someone's rights and ended their life.

He gets 5 years for example, why should we allow him to vote?

Instead we should open the door for Jim to find it easier to get a job post jail, so Jim has profits and a healthy life.

It'd be nice if Jim could participate in the process of making things easier for him to have a job and a nice post-jail job by letting him vote to represent his own interests just like everyone else.
 
I feel the need to point out that all else aside, over half of the people convicted of felonies in the US are convicted for drug related crimes, and only around 10% committed violent crimes.

And let's not pretend disenfranchisement is the only issue convicted felons have to face. Getting a job for them is far, far harder than for someone who was never convicted. Which of course makes it harder for many to survive without committing another crime.

I think the fact that people who have been convicted of a felony have so many issues facing them AFTER they've served their sentence is awful, and a huge part of why so many fall back into crime

Which is why I said before there are more important issues, a job can prevent a relapse, a vote in arguably rigged elections will not. Because they still will be mistreated and won't find a job often so they go back to crime.
 
Which is why I said before there are more important issues, a job can prevent a relapse, a vote in arguably rigged elections will not. Because they still will be mistreated and won't find a job often so they go back to crime.

Arguably rigged is bullshit conspiracy theory shit. And both are important. And have you considered that helping them find jobs would be much easier if laws were placed to facilitate such a thing, which would be much easier if THEY COULD VOTE FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS?
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Pretty amazing how little conservatives have evolved over the last century. Though I suppose that's the nature of conservatism.

You really don't have to stretch your imagination to see a present day Republican using the exact same quote. They might call them "criminal thugs" or something though.

Heck, haven't a few state level Republicans been caught on tape admitting it's to disenfranchise voters?
 
It'd be nice if Jim could participate in the process of making things easier for him to have a job and a nice post-jail job by letting him vote to represent his own interests just like everyone else.

See if the people voted for this law the VA gov passed you'd have a small point.

Focus on job first. I see no real progress in letting felons vote.

Unless I manage to find a chart separating felon and misdemeanor populations.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Which is why I said before there are more important issues, a job can prevent a relapse, a vote in arguably rigged elections will not. Because they still will be mistreated and won't find a job often so they go back to crime.

Joining this thread a bit late, but are you now saying that because voting may not be the highest priority for a convict, it's just fine to deny them that right? You do realize that voting is a fundamental right in this country, so if you're going to permanently infringe upon that right, you're going to have to come up with something a bit better than that.
 
See if the people voted for this law the VA gov passed you'd have a small point.

Focus on job first. I see no real progress in letting felons vote.

Unless I manage to find a chart separating felon and misdemeanor populations.

You act as if they're completely unrelated issues, and as if letting felons vote might not help facilitate them getting jobs

Aside from which there isn't really a reason to NOT let them vote.
 
See if the people voted for this law the VA gov passed you'd have a small point.

Focus on job first. I see no real progress in letting felons vote.

Unless I manage to find a chart separating felon and misdemeanor populations.

Why does it have to be an either/or? Why can't we focus on getting them better jobs and post-jail lives AND give them back their right to vote? Because you don't see "progress" in giving people back a very basic right that was unjustly taken from them? You sound like all you are doing is deflecting because you have no real reason to justify why certain people shoudln't have the right to vote.
 
Which is why I said before there are more important issues, a job can prevent a relapse, a vote in arguably rigged elections will not. Because they still will be mistreated and won't find a job often so they go back to crime.

Allowing a person or a group to vote is no more difficult than signing a piece of paper that says that person or group can vote. Allowing prisoners and former convicts to vote is so absurdly easy it's a non-issue.
And allowing them to vote does not, in any way, prevent other issues from being addressed.
 
Joining this thread a bit late, but are you now saying that because voting may not be the highest priority for a convict, it's just fine to deny them that right? You do realize that voting is a fundamental right in this country, so if you're going to permanently infringe upon that right, you're going to have to come up with something a bit better than that.

pretty much all of his arguments have hinged on the idea that only one thing can ever be accomplished at one time
 
except that this time it is literally, blatantly, patently, provably racism

How?

We have no guide to populations between felons and mids separately.

If say for example 7% of the prison population are felons that's a small amount of people and likely did something bad.

If felons were like 15-20% or over. And you can show race disenfranchisement on both sides then yes it's racism.

We do not have the necessary info.
 
See if the people voted for this law the VA gov passed you'd have a small point.

Focus on job first. I see no real progress in letting felons vote.

Unless I manage to find a chart separating felon and misdemeanor populations.

Do you want us to live in a direct democracy? We voted for him to have the governors powers, and now he's using them. What's the problem?
 
How?

We have no guide to populations between felons and mids separately.

If say for example 7% of the prison population are felons that's a small amount of people and likely did something bad.

If felons were like 15-20% or over. And you can show race disenfranchisement on both sides then yes it's racism.

We do not have the necessary info.

Are you from another planet? What does any of that even mean?
 

Cyan

Banned
If there was only one felon the other argument I see gere falls as well, race disenfranchisement.

With the one guy example that's no longer the case and yes, some of my points don't work as well but it also changes the story.
At this point most of the hundreds in jail are there for misdemeanors and we have one guy they did something so bad he is te only felon.

Why would you let him vote?

Why would you not? The default should be that citizens are allowed to vote. The onus is on you to argue that he shouldn't be able to.

If it just boils down to "well he's a bad person," great. Let's make a list of anyone who votes for Trump or has attended a Trump rally and block them from voting forever.
 

XenoRaven

Member
Criminals are still citizens and still deserve to have certain rights retained. In order to protect those rights, the most effect way for their interests to be represented is through voting.

Since it's wacky example hour, suppose someone was running for governor and vowed to create a law that would enact brutal physical punishments for people convicted of theft. Whipping, removal of limbs, etc.

Shouldn't the people who this directly affects have some say in what happens to them, or should they rely solely on a voting population that will likely never experience this punishment?

In a more real world example, shouldn't inmates have a say when a politician is running for office and thinks for-profit prisons are just, like, the coolest?

Shouldn't reformed felons who can't get work and support themselves have some sort of voice in the political system?

You can't take rights away from people without a good reason, and so far your reason has boiled down to this weird idea that more felons voting will corrupt the political system. Their integrity as voters is completely separate from their status as former felons. A former felon isn't necessarily a bad person and a person who has never been convicted is not necessarily a good person.
 
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