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Virtual On Oratorio Tangram discussion thread mkII
- Thread starter Sixfortyfive
- Start date
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If Force's gameplay (speed, controls, etc) is on par with Marz, then I can't imagine that it would be very appealing. I know Marz lacks 4-player and half the VRs or so, but even discounting that it's not incredibly fun to play.
I'd still probably buy it though.
I'd still probably buy it though.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I tried to play Force in arcades with a friend several times. It really isn't very fun. The slowed down speed of the game just kills it.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
It wasn't even so much the "speed" of the game that bothered me about Marz, but that the tracking for lots of attacks (dash attacks especially) seemed to have been completely nerfed. It still throws me off.
I think it's kind of funny that OMG and Marz are supposed to be easier to grasp than VOOT, but VOOT is the only one I'm any good at.
I think it's kind of funny that OMG and Marz are supposed to be easier to grasp than VOOT, but VOOT is the only one I'm any good at.
Cacophanus
Member
I played Force a fair bit in the Japanese arcades when I lived there, almost won a regional tournament too, and it's not really a slower game - in parts it's faster than Oratan. The issue with Force is that in order to make a fixed vectored dash mechanic work with double the number of opponents they had to make the dash freeze (amongst other things) almost non-existent. So you could cancel out of everything really easily and guard super quick too. Basically, giving the player a greater opportunity to evade enemy attacks - as there were more of them to contend with. This also meant your opponents could do the same as well, so the matches could end up being more drawn out.
Force was tactical though but in a far less direct way than Oratan and relied heavily on good teamwork (which was the arguably the point). Marz did it a massive disservice.
Don't get me wrong, Force isn't as good as Oratan (or the original game, which is still my favourite) but it's by no means utter crap either.
Force was tactical though but in a far less direct way than Oratan and relied heavily on good teamwork (which was the arguably the point). Marz did it a massive disservice.
Don't get me wrong, Force isn't as good as Oratan (or the original game, which is still my favourite) but it's by no means utter crap either.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Huge sticks are huge.
I took a bunch of replays I had been collecting on my 360 and stitched together a couple Youtube videos out of them. These weren't worth a page 50 bump a few weeks ago but I think they're fine for a page 2 bump now:
Fei-Yen / Ajim
Prototype Raiden
Not the greatest performance but there's a few decent hits in there, I think.
I took a bunch of replays I had been collecting on my 360 and stitched together a couple Youtube videos out of them. These weren't worth a page 50 bump a few weeks ago but I think they're fine for a page 2 bump now:
Fei-Yen / Ajim
Prototype Raiden
Not the greatest performance but there's a few decent hits in there, I think.
Well, I've had the sticks for a little while now. Haven't had too much time to play with them yet. First off, they feel great. Second, I suck at them :lol After a bit of training in practice mode and against AI, I'm starting to get a little used to them. I've never really played Virtual On prior to the XBLA version, though, so I have zero past experience with twinsticks. Anyone have any tips for me, re: how to best use them, efficiency-wise and so on? I'm trying to look for a guide, but not much luck. I've found this blog post which was useful http://www.kurokoproject.com/2009/03/two-sticks-of-fury/ From what he describes, it seems the real advantage of the sticks is in how quickly you can issue commands.
I guess that example he uses about dashing forward and pressing back + trigger to initiate a lunging melee attack works, since you can pull that off using both sticks in separate directions. Still trying to come to grasps with how to use the controls properly, though.
Been playing this sporadically against a buddy (both having twinsticks). I'm slowly getting used to them now, to the point where I can pretty do what I was able to with the gamepad before. I can appreciate some of the finer points of the sticks, and the increased efficiency at points is nice. More importantly, the feel of the controls is great. For the purpose of learning the new control scheme, I've also temporarily set Bal aside to learn a new character, Specineff. Awesome mech, but the dash is so short -_-
sixteen-bit
Member
Ah, I'm so jealous of you owning the twin sticks!
â Narayan
Member
Isn't he supposed to be the best VR to use in the game, or something?Llyranor said:
The Japanese have a tier list available which ostensibly ranks each of the VRs:
http://ot.virtual-on.com/index.php?%A5%C0%A5%A4%A5%A2%A5%B0%A5%E9%A5%E0 (the first table)
The rankings are a bit subjective though. Essentially they're compiled by asking the best Japanese players "If Player 1 using VR1 fights Player 2 using VR2, and they are both equally skilled, how many times out of 10 should Player 1 win?" Then they take the numbers and stick them in the table as VR1 vs. VR2. A VR's place on the list is determined by its chances of winning averaged over each matchup.
For example, you can see in the chart that if a Specineff and a Raiden of equal skill play 10 matches, Specineff is expected to win 6 of them. You can also see in the chart that Raiden is actually ranked higher than Specineff if you don't include Ajim (a special character) and 10/80 (a handicapped character) in the calculations.
Buuut, there are some problems with this.
(1) As stated, it's subjective. It's happened before that a really really good guy uses a VR, and ends up skewing the rankings just because of how much he dominates with that VR.
(2) These rankings are determined by polling the best of the best, so they don't really matter for people of normal or even good skill. When you start getting into the really-good range, then your game gets closer to that theoretical limit. And if there's still a matchup discrepancy there, then you know it's a problem inherent to your VR because you can't play your VR much better than you currently are. But at lower levels you still have room for improvement, and that improvement will put you above any similarly-skilled opponent.
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I could make some graphs to better illustrate the point.
http://ot.virtual-on.com/index.php?%A5%C0%A5%A4%A5%A2%A5%B0%A5%E9%A5%E0 (the first table)
The rankings are a bit subjective though. Essentially they're compiled by asking the best Japanese players "If Player 1 using VR1 fights Player 2 using VR2, and they are both equally skilled, how many times out of 10 should Player 1 win?" Then they take the numbers and stick them in the table as VR1 vs. VR2. A VR's place on the list is determined by its chances of winning averaged over each matchup.
For example, you can see in the chart that if a Specineff and a Raiden of equal skill play 10 matches, Specineff is expected to win 6 of them. You can also see in the chart that Raiden is actually ranked higher than Specineff if you don't include Ajim (a special character) and 10/80 (a handicapped character) in the calculations.
Buuut, there are some problems with this.
(1) As stated, it's subjective. It's happened before that a really really good guy uses a VR, and ends up skewing the rankings just because of how much he dominates with that VR.
(2) These rankings are determined by polling the best of the best, so they don't really matter for people of normal or even good skill. When you start getting into the really-good range, then your game gets closer to that theoretical limit. And if there's still a matchup discrepancy there, then you know it's a problem inherent to your VR because you can't play your VR much better than you currently are. But at lower levels you still have room for improvement, and that improvement will put you above any similarly-skilled opponent.
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I could make some graphs to better illustrate the point.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
Is there any way to buy the twin sticks any more, or did they all sell out instantly?
I'm afraid I don't know. Control Pad 4 Lyfe!
You can check here if you're confident in your Japanese: http://www.hori.jp/products/xbox360/controller/xbox360_twin_stick_ex/
You can check here if you're confident in your Japanese: http://www.hori.jp/products/xbox360/controller/xbox360_twin_stick_ex/
dreamcastmaster
Banned
You should be able to find modded Saturn Twinsticks still.
Just a heads-up: I recently launched a successor to the now-dead Virtualon.net over at Virtualon.org. My goal is for it to be the biggest English-speaking resource for Virtual-On-related stuff on the webbernet, with strategies, projects, game data, videos, artwork, tournament info, etc. etc. It's light on content right now (VOOM, FORCE, and MARZ sections haven't even been started on) but given time the content will accumulate and it will become the real deal.
(signing up for the forum would be nice, too
)
(signing up for the forum would be nice, too
)Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Nice. I should start playing this with the crew again. I've been playing LAN at a friend's about once a week lately, but I haven't been on Live in ages now.
I've been playing this semi-regularly/religiously against a friend (who also has twinsticks), Specineff vs Temjin. He was beating me pretty easy at first, but now that I know more how to better handle Specineff (especially getting used to his ridiculously short dashes), I can make him bleed for his battles, and I still have to really earn my victories. The biggest learning curve was unlearning all my bad habits, especially re: dash attacks.
The twinsticks are perfect; the game handles so freaking well now. I can't even imagine playing this game with a gamepad anymore. It's not so much that the sticks made me a lot better (it doesn't really - the improved efficiency is mostly very subtle), but they just feel awesome. I'm really glad I made the investment. Totally worth it.
VOOT could tentatively make it into my top 10 all-time list.
The twinsticks are perfect; the game handles so freaking well now. I can't even imagine playing this game with a gamepad anymore. It's not so much that the sticks made me a lot better (it doesn't really - the improved efficiency is mostly very subtle), but they just feel awesome. I'm really glad I made the investment. Totally worth it.
VOOT could tentatively make it into my top 10 all-time list.
Okay, VOOT is definitely in my top10 all-time. What a lovely awesome game. Twinsticks are also now my favorite peripheral, more so than my flightstick and arcade stick.
I've gotten a lot better with Specineff. I think I've crossed the learning curve for that one. At least now I can play semi-competently!
Man, I love this game.
(did everyone else stop playing this game?)
I've gotten a lot better with Specineff. I think I've crossed the learning curve for that one. At least now I can play semi-competently!
Man, I love this game.
(did everyone else stop playing this game?)
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I think the guys at Oratan still have VOOT nights on Wednesday, but that happens to fall on the same night as my own local weekly gaming sessions (which do occasionally include VOOT though).
I'm usually up for some games whenever, though. Haven't been on Live much lately because most of my time has been dedicated to TvC as of late.
I'm usually up for some games whenever, though. Haven't been on Live much lately because most of my time has been dedicated to TvC as of late.
Just a head-up: for this week, VOOT is now only 800 MS Points, down from the usual 1200. Quite the deal!
If you're looking to get into this game, we have some beginner's buides over at virtualon.org
If you're looking to get into this game, we have some beginner's buides over at virtualon.org