FunkMiller
Banned
Especially ones working on psychological survival horror games set in small mountain towns.
We need more talent>diversity in the gaming industry.
- Thread starter levyjl1988
- Start date
Especially ones working on psychological survival horror games set in small mountain towns.
FunkMiller
Banned
I outlined my point of view quite clearly, I think.
llien
Banned
No, you have not, that's why I've asked questions.
Do you want me to rephrase/shorten it?
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Shmunter
Member
Regarding divers vs education, thats not the case. It's purely a class system issue and inter generational cultural shortcomings. Value of education, stability in the home are key to opening up ones potential. Only black America has this problem in the USA, not other minorities like Asians.
Racisim and bigotry in the education system? The education system needs to be bolstered somehow yes, but again the value on education needs to be there to complement each other - otherwise one drags down the other.
Welfare is indeed a poisoned chalice. Give the man a fish feed him for a day, teach him how to fish feed him for a lifetime. Unfortunately dependence on welfare is a systemic issue. it should be stricter and a safety net, not a way of life. To get it, be working towards a diploma, apply for x amount of jobs per week, etc. Do not make it a reward to have more children as a single parent.
JLB
Banned
Diversity
Talent
Disgusting. Theres plenty of talented womens on the industry. Dont pretend otherwise.
cireza
Member
You missed the point. Haircuts = diversity.
FunkMiller
Banned
Oh, I completely agree that class is a HUGE issue. The bigotry of low expectations that gives rise to the diversity hire culture is born and proliferates in the middle classes. There's nothing so stomach churning than to listen to a middle class white boy give a speech about how awful it is for the poor and down trodden, and how we all need to 'lift them up' like the SJW saviours that we should all be.
If you speak to the working class people of the this world, most of them - no matter what colour, gender or sexuality they may be - just want to be given a fair shake of the stick. None of them want to be unjustly advantaged over anybody else simply because of their backgrounds - mainly because it's really, really insulting to them.
A systemic problem for all of us in Western society is that we've allowed the relaxed middle classes to dominate our institutions for so long, that we've lost all perspective on what's actually important. You only need look at the BBC here in the UK for the results of that.
MisterBrimstone
Member
Diversity
Wow it's the first time I only would fuck some asian ones. What was this thread about?
Why are you assuming the other person didn't work just as hard, and by any stretch of the imagination most employees developers are majority white male.
You guys act like there weren't crappy developers before.
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B-universe
Banned
...exemplified by posts such as yours?
Really?
That's interesting.
Because, speaking of women, the number of female college-taught adults has outnumbered that of males for the past 40 years (source). And not just that, Women Will Soon Be Majority Of College-Educated U.S. Workers (source)
Additionally, "In 2017, the [US college] population was 61 percent white, 18 percent Hispanic, 12.3 percent black, 5.7 percent Asian, 1.9 percent one or more race, 0.7 percent American Indian or Alaska Native, and 0.3 percent Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander." (source). For comparison, population breakdown by ethnicity is, according to the 2019 census, as follows: 63.4% white, 15.3% Hispanic, 13.4% black and 5.9% Asian (source). All in all, the proportionality is striking.
There's a discussion to be had, elsewhere, of whether equality of outcome is moral and achievable. Judging by that first paragraph alone, you're totally unequipped for such debate.
Define systemic racism and show that it exists in contemporary "state education and welfare systems".
Inequality that results from people acting freely and interacting freely with one another is not only not a problem but in fact the true just and moral outcome.
But, unfortunately, evidently, not all inequality is a by-product of people having different abilities, preferences, tastes, life choices, family and cultural backgrounds, etc., and freely engaging with one another. The solution, however isn't to pile on the problem by engineering equality of outcome at the expense of the rights and freedoms of others.
Oh, the dumb far-left that talks about...white privilege?
Define white privilege and show it exists.
Oh, the irony.
The problem lies with "white people". The problems of the nation lie with white people and therefore it is incumbent upon white people to sacrifice to save the nation from itself.
What a laughable, patronizing worldview.
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B-universe
Banned
Which you entered at your own will, are free to leave at any time, but regrettably, didn't have it in you to post an argument for or against, a single coherent and rational idea to refute said ugliness, nothing, absolutely nothing. Not even a quote of the kind of ideas you object to.
Welcome!
FunkMiller
Banned
You seem nice.
CitizenX
Banned
Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."
So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.
They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.
International Women's Day pic
General Staff pic
I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.
Hire Alien- Check, now that is true diversity.
Manwithoutfear
Member
can we please get a subforum for actual game discussion.
BabyfaceRe
Member
Talent should always trump everything else in any sector.
Having said that you seem to an axe to grind , black widow in avenegers is ugly ? Ok .
There have been very few objectively ugly female characters in recent games; abby likely being the front runner. But you seem to forget that most female characters up till recent times were highly sexualized and not remotely realistic they were all designed as 11/10 woman. Things are starting to balance out now and u may get the odd 'ugly' one as the times change but , as with most ppl I see making the same argument, you seem to substitute not being hyper pretty with being ugly.
Like people called aloy ugly and manly and the main from control as well. Like wtf standards do these kids have? Lmao
Just 2020 I guess, if something isn't one thing it must be the most extreme opposite thing.
Having said that you seem to an axe to grind , black widow in avenegers is ugly ? Ok .
There have been very few objectively ugly female characters in recent games; abby likely being the front runner. But you seem to forget that most female characters up till recent times were highly sexualized and not remotely realistic they were all designed as 11/10 woman. Things are starting to balance out now and u may get the odd 'ugly' one as the times change but , as with most ppl I see making the same argument, you seem to substitute not being hyper pretty with being ugly.
Like people called aloy ugly and manly and the main from control as well. Like wtf standards do these kids have? Lmao
Just 2020 I guess, if something isn't one thing it must be the most extreme opposite thing.
B-universe
Banned
Jadsey
Member
General Staff pic
What planet is the blue lady on the far right from?
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lock2k
Banned
Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."
So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.
They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.
International Women's Day pic
General Staff pic
I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.
Look at all these morons. No wonder Halo sucks now.
lock2k
Banned
Gordana.
llien
Banned
I don't mind communism, as long as they don't kill people, but instead realize it as in the books: happy healthy people, working for free, getting goods and services for free.
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alabtrosMyster
Member
Talent are diversity are not mutually exclusive, but the way I see it diversity should not be a goal in and of itself. The idea that it auto-magically makes your team better (or even good) if you have a representative slice of all recognized people categories in the inter-sectional table is not conducive to making a good product, nor building a "safe" work environment.
In fact depending where your business is it could make it near impossible to hire talent, or those you feel would make the best team members. People don't just apply for jobs proportionally to begin with, then if you find a good bunch of female engineers does it mean that some guys will be forced into nursing jobs? (nothing wrong with female engineers or male nurses)...
Resisting the current version of diversity and inclusion (that also comes with a certain level of outcome guarantee) is an important thing to do in order to keep society at least a bit sane. These ideas fall a part as soon as you put some brain cells at work trying to figure out where it takes us.
Funny thing, one of the guys has a lobster shirt!
In fact depending where your business is it could make it near impossible to hire talent, or those you feel would make the best team members. People don't just apply for jobs proportionally to begin with, then if you find a good bunch of female engineers does it mean that some guys will be forced into nursing jobs? (nothing wrong with female engineers or male nurses)...
- Would you force those top tier black basketball players to give their place to a proportional number of people from other ethnicity (from all genders, religions and sexual orientation, remember ALL GROUPS ALL THE TIME) in the NBA?
- Would you send such a team to the Olympics to represent the USA?
- For the country's Olympic team as a whole, would representation be on a per sport basis or on a whole team basis?
- How about music, do you need representation on a per band basis, per musical type? per music label? or again in the billboard top 100? What if the top sellers aren't representative, do you fix that one too?
- Some black actors are deemed "not black enough" for black roles... should these concerns be taken seriously? (look it up, it happened to Will Smith of all people)
Not necessarily, some serious assertions and actions are taken to re-organize the modern society around the principles of a hardliner application of diversity and inclusion, big businesses and governments hire around these lines. The ideological principles never passed any real challenge, they just started to be applied, without any serious thought put into it (no thought from people who actually understands anything).
Resisting the current version of diversity and inclusion (that also comes with a certain level of outcome guarantee) is an important thing to do in order to keep society at least a bit sane. These ideas fall a part as soon as you put some brain cells at work trying to figure out where it takes us.
Shhhh we should not say it, but white supremacists are very good at promoting Asians these days! Would it mean that there is some sort of meritocracy going on at a certain level?Talent
Funny thing, one of the guys has a lobster shirt!
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So black and brown people can't make good games? And keep women away from all devs studios huh? How are you so sure those people don't have talent?
B-universe
Banned
To be clear, it's for the OP or anyone making an equivalent claim to show that Diversity hires were and are the root cause for the misfortune of and decline in quality in named AAA titles. The burden of proof is on the OP.
And the OP or anyone making a similar claim have yet to provide evidence.
Ultimately, the faults of any given IP lie with the executive management. They hold the power to delay, bring in a helping studio, change course altogether, replace mid management, replace individual devs, etc.
Evidently, we're amidst Covid-19. It seems reasonable to me that even the execs should be cut some slack.
But, generally speaking, If executives fail to spot the problems, it's because they're not involved enough or have delegated too much or have poor standards. If they did spot the problems in time, then they failed to correct them by whatever means at their disposal.
And the OP or anyone making a similar claim have yet to provide evidence.
Ultimately, the faults of any given IP lie with the executive management. They hold the power to delay, bring in a helping studio, change course altogether, replace mid management, replace individual devs, etc.
Evidently, we're amidst Covid-19. It seems reasonable to me that even the execs should be cut some slack.
But, generally speaking, If executives fail to spot the problems, it's because they're not involved enough or have delegated too much or have poor standards. If they did spot the problems in time, then they failed to correct them by whatever means at their disposal.
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I don't think anyone has ever said this, even in that pic, spotted only 1 black guy.
Actually for a war game I would trust a black man more than a white woman, but that's a personal opinion based on how their brain would work.
The Strength Diversity Brings to the Halo Universe
Official site for 343 Industries, guardians of the Halo franchise.
www.343industries.com
Results speak for themselves though, they targeted diversity hiring instead of talents with the best curriculum, the game is shit, and this is not the first time this happens.
iHaunter
Member
I don't mind communism, as long as they don't kill people, but instead realize it as in the books: happy healthy people, working for free, getting goods and services for free.
This analogy is not even remotely close to what I said, but okay.
lock2k
Banned
The way I see it. If the best brain for the job happens to be ethnic, ok, so be it.
If it doesn't, so be it, anyway.
Brains have no color or sex. There are dumb people, mediocre people and brilliant people. They can come from whatever crop.
Yoko Shimomura composed almost all of Street Fighter 2 tracks and EVERYONE thinks her compositions are brilliant (and they are forever ingrained in my brain as some of the finest music compositions ever, not just gaming music). But the issue here is the talent. She is a brilliant brain first and foremost, a woman second. Anyway, this is the way I see the world. Intelligence, character, ideas, come first. Identity second.
Brilliant people come from all walks of life. But if you're looking at the exterior first, you're fucking dumb.
If it doesn't, so be it, anyway.
Brains have no color or sex. There are dumb people, mediocre people and brilliant people. They can come from whatever crop.
Yoko Shimomura composed almost all of Street Fighter 2 tracks and EVERYONE thinks her compositions are brilliant (and they are forever ingrained in my brain as some of the finest music compositions ever, not just gaming music). But the issue here is the talent. She is a brilliant brain first and foremost, a woman second. Anyway, this is the way I see the world. Intelligence, character, ideas, come first. Identity second.
Brilliant people come from all walks of life. But if you're looking at the exterior first, you're fucking dumb.
llien
Banned
Indeed, unlike what you've said, communism is at least theoretically possible, whereas you cannot take diversity into account and not take diversity into account simultaneously.
Nobody said or implied that in this thread.
The argument is, that this approach:
To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions (Published 2020)
If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.
means hiring people for their immutable characteristics, instead of merit (in the example above: not being "color blind"), whatever the good intentions are, will results in dropping the skill levels.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Except that never happened (this way), so I guess this already is invalidating the premise of the post.I don't mind communism, as long as they don't kill people, but instead realize it as in the books: happy healthy people, working for free, getting goods and services for free.
llien
Banned
Was exactly the point I was making.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Maybe I translated it badly then, that can happened. I am also trigger everytime I read/hear word "communism"...
Arkam
Member
As a department head at a large gaming company I can honestly tell you that unless there is a VERY specific need for an expert in a niche tech, talent is currently number two to diversity. I have been told multiple times that I am not allowed to hire any white males for the rest of FY20. It must be a POC, preferably female. Our recruitment team is going out of their way to target this group and looking past MANY highly talented applicants (yes people who actually applied). As someone who just wants to make the best products that can turn a profit, i am beyond disgusted. I keep hoping a peer will turn Narc and* report us for our violations of the equal employment opportunity act. That would probably be a career ender, but damn do i wish I was that strong and brave.
Talking to my friends at other companies this is very widespread. So expect the industry to "slow down" a bit as we have to ramp up a myriad of underperformers.
Talking to my friends at other companies this is very widespread. So expect the industry to "slow down" a bit as we have to ramp up a myriad of underperformers.
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lock2k
Banned
People are actively being discriminated against and morons cheer about it. It's fucking disgusting. Every single day I log at Linkedin and I see job announcements as "for women only" or "for women of color only" - I mean. WHAT THE FUCK? Even if you're a woman, if you're not of color, get fucked and go home. This is utterly disgusting. Imagine if there was an announcement "for white people only, for white men only" - people would go bonkers. This kind of shit is being endorsed on a daily basis and it's shitty and disgusting.
lock2k
Banned
All brains are different.
Even if you could clone the same person 12 times, the results would be wildly different. This is bollocks.
I take it you will give up your job to someone who has a different perspective.
For the team.
Arkam
Member
That is called "design by committee" and in my personal experience leads shit decisions as you have to appease the diverse (and often antithetical) perspectives. You can however absolutely have talent and diversity. Not sure where one would get the perspective that it was not possible. However it should be organic and for each difference there still needs to be enough commonality for a team to be cohesive. All most of us want is for TALENT and MERIT be the reason a person succeeds. Anything else is just stealing from Peter to pay Paul.
Aggressive Carrot
Member
Talent should always come first. Unfortunately we now live in a world where companies have to fill diversity quotas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with diversity, just hire the ones that deserve the job they were given.
Why am I not surprised you're a Reeefugee.
Why am I not surprised you're a Reeefugee.
B-universe
Banned
I've given this example before.
If honesty truly is a value to you, that means you will sacrifice your own immediate interests in order to uphold it. If you truly value honesty, you will return that wallet, even though those bills sure would come in handy. A value is an idea or a principle you deem so important you're willing to sacrifice other minor values or personal interests for the sake. of it. A value discriminates between competing courses of action.
Likewise, if you truly value Diversity, you will accept to sacrifice your immediate interests - always hire the best possible people - in order to forcibly end up with a diverse workforce. If Diversity is what you value the most, you will accept not hiring the most competent candidate if that gets you a more diverse team.
Evidently, it's very unlikely for a team to be entirely built from the ground up solely based on Diversity criteria. What seems to be more common is that the core is recruited under Meritocracy and a number of positions are subsequently filled according to Diversity.
It's also disingenuous to suggest that Diversity, as the term is being used - ethnic diversity, sexual orientation diversity, etc. - , represents real diversity in the sense you're implying. If that were the case, you would be putting the emphasis on diversity that matters the most: diversity of thought. Of course you didn't even mention that. If your concern were true diversity, you would be calling for conservatives, libertarians and orthodox religionists all making the cut along with mainstream so-called liberals and left wingers, because those are the real substantive worldview alternatives. Could that be because you're only interested in cosmetic Diversity? It's entirely possible to have a team of straight white males, black lesbians, Asian asexual people and Trans Hispanics who all fundamentally think alike.
So It's not that it's not possible to have competent teams based off on Diversity criteria. It's that as values, Diversity are meritocracy are not absolutely compatible, in the sense that if and when faced with the decision to hire candidate A based on merit and candidate B on Diversity, the two are at the end of the day mutually exclusive. One has got to give.
It's for each company to decide who they hire. If they want to do it based off on Diversity, knock yourself out, go for it. Hopefully, somewhere out there, now or in the future, the competition will hire based on merit alone, will become more competitive and eventually sink you.
Capitalism tends to work wonders.
It exfoliates like nothing else.
MastaKiiLA
Member
There are 7 billion people in the world. You can have both talent and diversity.
These kinds of threads and opinions are fucking dumb and out of touch with reality. If you exited your bomb shelter, you'd actually know this.
These kinds of threads and opinions are fucking dumb and out of touch with reality. If you exited your bomb shelter, you'd actually know this.
Ad meet hominem.
lock2k
Banned
They aren't all living in the same place at the same time though - which renders your point moot.
Go to Japan and tell them to hire diverse people from outside. They'll laugh at your face.
After Carlos Ghosn's fuckup I would imagine they want less and less diversity now.
Sorry but this is bullshit.
We are 7 billions people which:
1. Don't speak the same language
2. Don't have the same culture
3. Don't have the same goals
4. Are not specialized in the same field
5. Very few are exceptionally talented in their specific field
6. Don't have the right age to actually work
I could go on until tomorrow.
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B-universe
Banned
You're the one failing to address most of the points being made and resorting to the very articulate, quote, "fucking dumb" and "bomb shelter" terms and, collectively, it's the other side who's intellectually challenged?
Get over yourself.
iHaunter
Member
Indeed, unlike what you've said, communism is at least theoretically possible, whereas you cannot take diversity into account and not take diversity into account simultaneously.
Nobody said or implied that in this thread.
The argument is, that this approach:
To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions (Published 2020)
If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.www.nytimes.com
means hiring people for their immutable characteristics, instead of merit (in the example above: not being "color blind"), whatever the good intentions are, will results in dropping the skill levels.
That's literally what I said, hire talent first, worry about diversity later.
B-universe
Banned
(...)
The argument is, that this approach:
To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions (Published 2020)
If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.
means hiring people for their immutable characteristics, instead of merit (in the example above: not being "color blind"), whatever the good intentions are, will results in dropping the skill levels.
This is especially relevant because the stock comeback of invoking unconscious bias doesn't apply to blind auditions, where you only hear the sound that comes out of the instrument and decide based off on that.
Again, here we have a clear case where diversity is being made directly incompatible with meritocracy, as though that were a virtuous distortion.
Dr. Claus
Banned
I am basing this off of my own experiences in hiring comittees for both industry and corporate jobs. Affirmative Action is a blight and hiring for "diversity" does nothing and only further sows discord in the ranks.