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[Montauk]

it's a good deal in the interim period where stuff is being figured out. like that brief time when Netflix had EVERYTHING and was charging a pittance. Now they rely mostly on their own homegrown garbage only and raise prices constantly, and you need to sub to 3 other shitty services to get access to everything and it comes out to basically the same price as cable except it's all disorganized and crappy.

When MS was handing out fat deals to devs for great games that were in development, and charging a small price to gamers because they were trying to get subs, it was awesome. Like I paid $1 on top of my XBL to get UGP for THREE YEARS. That is insane. But then everything adjusts and it's not so great. And when I say adjust I don't mean the price (which is going up), I don't mean the amount of the deals with devs (which are going down), but also how the games are made, what they incentivize, etc.

Slight disagreement because I feel that Game Pass is absolutely still a great deal at full price, if you find games you like.

But I definitely share your concern about what the market forces of GP could do to the games industry longer term, the incentives as you say.

 

[demigod]

Why?? Devolver at least is a top tier publisher for indies. The indie gaming industry will suffer if these two pubs go under..

Read the post below you. How are they going to go under by not putting their games on subscription models? If indies release good games, folks will buy them.

 

[diffusionx]

Slight disagreement because I feel that Game Pass is absolutely still a great deal at full price, if you find games you like.

But I definitely share your concern about what the market forces of GP could do to the games industry longer term, the incentives as you say.

Obviously it is a judgement for everyone, I personally did not re-up at full price when my three year "trial" ended. But my point is that the value proposition only goes one way from here. It's going to be more expensive, MS is going to find a way to pay devs less (even if that means signing less deals and relying more on their own games, as Netflix did), and the way the games are made and released are going to be adjusted to suit the model. It's not going to become a better value over time.

 

[ByWatterson]

Sustainable (TM)

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

If you read the article it paints the picture of two struggling publishers because of numerous delays and under performing games (deserved, because they haven't been great).

It's also weird how indies matter now and how much they're valued, when any other time, no one cares. How many GamePass threads have we had where a month is loaded with quality indie titles and people instantly pass it off as trash? But now we're worried about how subscriptions might be devaluing them, when gamers themselves have been doing it for generations?

 

[cash_longfellow]

They could just not sign the subscription deal and try to sell their game? Just an idea.

 

[Portugeezer]

I hope the developers of Sea of Stars are well compensated. I was surprised it was on Gamepass and PS Plus, it'll probably sell well I Switch regardless.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Yeah you definitely don’t want to get caught in a position where you’re relying too much of your bottom line on hoping to continually funnel in new sub deals from platform holders. The main golden revenue ticket is still premium price title sales, and that should continue to be the focus for these companies.

 

[Punished Miku]

Tinybuild also has nothing noteworthy this year at all. Few people even know their name as a publisher. They had Tinykin in 2022, which I bought after beating it on GP.

tinyBuild - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2023

Rhythm sprout - never heard of it
Farworld pioneers - Gamepass, reviews on the Xbox store say the controls are practically broken and don't work. Never heard anyone talk about it.
Bookwalker - Gamepass, I think it looks cool and plan to play it but no one is talking about it. Also some complaints of poor controls.
Punch Club 2 - looks okay
I Am Future: Cozy Apocalypse - never heard of it, PC only

So that just leaves Rhythm Sprout and Punch Club 2. Seems like there's just not a lot of great indies this year, like I've been saying all year. My favorite one so far this year was Bramble. The issue is that these indie publishers are having a shit year for 2023.

Annapurna is not listed in the article by the way, so they must be doing alright. Their list has Cocoon, Thirsty Suitors, Ghostbike, Bounty Star. All are on Gamepass and all look a lot better. Cocoon likely got a huge payout.

 

[graywolf323]

Well I think a lot more playstation gamers would buy the games if they were closer to the price of a month of gamepass when they come to playstation.
If High on Life came to Playstation at $20-30 it would have moved some units. But $60 for a now older game, that was free elsewhere, is a tough sale.
I look for games on sale on Xbox that get as low as around a month of gamepass. I got MCC for $10. I'd rather own than rent for a month for instance.

honestly you see the same thing happen when Epic exclusives come to Steam later, if they don’t launch with a massive discount they don’t tend to sell very well until they finally do

 

[ByWatterson]

I hope the developers of Sea of Stars are well compensated. I was surprised it was on Gamepass and PS Plus, it'll probably sell well I Switch regardless.

Honestly I'm just going to buy it on Playstation.

It's the exact kind of game I'd love if I play it all the way through, but that I'm highly likely to drop if it's in a sub.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Didn't know Sony was already an investor in Devolver Digital. If DD's looking to be acquired, Sony should go for it. They need a stable of AA devs who can work with new and legacy IP, and give them more 1P content to put onto the market between the big 1P AAA games that are taking longer to develop with each generation.

The subscription bubble was just that: a bubble. It was always going to pop. Companies that were relying on that have to readjust now, and for some it'll take longer than others.

I hope the developers of Sea of Stars are well compensated. I was surprised it was on Gamepass and PS Plus, it'll probably sell well I Switch regardless.

Hoping that game comes to GOG eventually as I'll likely pick it up there. From the footage I've seen so far, it looks quite promising.

Yeah you definitely don’t want to get caught in a position where you’re relying too much of your bottom line on hoping to continually funnel in new sub deals from platform holders. The main golden revenue ticket is still premium price title sales, and that should continue to be the focus for these companies.

I kind of think there is a danger for Sega/Atlus in this regard, since they have a lot of Day 1 deals for Game Pass, and that could cause an undesired flux in their B2P sales revenue and make them too dependent on subscription deals.

But I guess we'll see how that plays out over time.

 

[Anime-Vix]

This thread is kinda weird. People will buy whatever is interesting to them. Stray launched on PSplus day 1. The game recently came out on Xbox 2 weeks ago.
As of now, the game is the #4 best selling game in the USA Xbox store with over 1000+ ratings and is still #1 on the UK store

 

[Solidus_T]

Who could have foreseen this?

I kind of think there is a danger for Sega/Atlus in this regard, since they have a lot of Day 1 deals for Game Pass, and that could cause an undesired flux in their B2P sales revenue and make them too dependent on subscription deals.

But I guess we'll see how that plays out over time.

I was thinking about their deals as well. They aren't a small indie company, but the change in direction for SEGA has been rapid. There are so many Persona 5 crossovers happening with mobile games recently that it looks like they are relying on deals with gacha games as a source of revenue.

 

[Duchess]

From the footage I've seen so far, it looks quite promising.

The pixel art is absolutely gorgeous.

Edit: it's funny, because you see stuff like this and think, wait, didn't SNES games always look like that..?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Who could have foreseen this?

I was thinking about their deals as well. They aren't a small indie company, but the change in direction for SEGA has been rapid. There are so many Persona 5 crossovers happening with mobile games recently that it looks like they are relying on deals with gacha games as a source of revenue.

We'll just have to see how it all plays out, but on the console side they are doing things which seem to run counter towards maximizing B2P sales revenue. All Persona 3 Remake marketing in the West for example is tied to Xbox, I guess with the assumption PlayStation fans will just "know" the game's coming to their platform and buy it there if they wish. And, a good number definitely will, but I think some will probably just grab it through Game Pass if they have a Series S, for example.

That's the optimal situation for Sega/Atlus, but others may wait for the game's price to drop before picking it up, which is less desirable. And some will be holdouts and simply not buy the game at all, either because they don't know it's on their platform or out of protest. Probably won't be a lot of that last camp, but they will be there. It's one thing to try expanding your audience; in that aspect bringing those games to Xbox is a net positive, potentially. But the way Sega/Atlus are doing the marketing for P3 Remake in the West, if you were a core Persona fan in that territory, you might think the remake isn't even coming to a PlayStation platform at all, or at least Day 1.

It's a bit odd, they're treating it like a 3P console exclusive marketing-wise in the West, but in actuality it's a Day 1 multiplat.

The pixel art is absolutely gorgeous.

Edit: it's funny, because you see stuff like this and think, wait, didn't SNES games always look like that..?

Yeah the 2D sprite work looks very good, and it's probably one of the few indie games I've seen that actually "feel" like they could've been a late-gen SNES/early Saturn 2D JRPG. The visuals and production values help sell it in that way. But, there are little effects throughout that are beyond what a system like SNES or Saturn could've done with 2D games in their time, even among the AAA variety.

And of course, the native resolution is much higher than games on those systems, helping make image quality much better.

 

[Gambit2483]

This thread is kinda weird. People will buy whatever is interesting to them. Stray launched on PSplus day 1. The game recently came out on Xbox 2 weeks ago.
As of now, the game is the #4 best selling game in the USA Xbox store with over 1000+ ratings and is still #1 on the UK store

One game (that got a TON of limelight on the competing platform as a timed exclusive) among a sea of indies that aren't getting the same sales/attention does not an example make. Stray is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

honestly you see the same thing happen when Epic exclusives come to Steam later, if they don’t launch with a massive discount they don’t tend to sell very well until they finally do

Yea, gamers are stubborn as shit and hold grudges like no other.
Games practically need something like, it's coming half price, and heres some free DLC/credits to thank you for your patience.
Instead they just see it as a new audience, that hasn't had the game yet, so it's new for them, here it is for full price. That doesn't go over well.

 

[diffusionx]

This thread is kinda weird. People will buy whatever is interesting to them. Stray launched on PSplus day 1. The game recently came out on Xbox 2 weeks ago.
As of now, the game is the #4 best selling game in the USA Xbox store with over 1000+ ratings and is still #1 on the UK store

Without actual numbers, this is irrelevant. Stray could easily be the #1 ranked game in sales and it could be a lower number than before GP. Ranking is just relative.

 

[ARK1391]

Too many low quality Indies. They need to start having more for the basic experience. Music, Voice Acting. No more 8 bit pixel visuals. You’re not standing out. Use the memory of your PS5. Stop creating your levels as if they are playing on 1999 machines With loading screens every time a character walks off screen.

That's asking a lot of 1 or 2 person teams. Some great indie games are exactly what you described.

Those small teams have almost no budget to do the things you're asking for. Not to mention a small 1-5 person team may be mostly programmers in college with little to no art skills. Sometimes 8-16bit pixel art is all they can manage. The 1 or 2 artist(s) on the team can't do everything themselves.

 

[Sorcerer]

Remember the good old days, when Steam Sales where devaluing games and the game industry? LOL!!!

 

[Sorcerer]

Too many low quality Indies. They need to start having more for the basic experience. Music, Voice Acting. No more 8 bit pixel visuals. You’re not standing out. Use the memory of your PS5. Stop creating your levels as if they are playing on 1999 machines With loading screens every time a character walks off screen.

Pretty much what you are asking for is for Indie developers to stop being Indie.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

"B-b-but... subscription services like GamePass are great for indies because they increase indie game visibility"......
.......
..
. until you realize that their entire fortunes become increasingly entirely bound by the arbitrary whims of subscription service providers like MS who can pay them as little as they like for the game deals for the sub; and the more indie game competition there is, the more there's downward pressure on sub-deal dollar payments to individual indie studios.

Also, the more AAA content sub-service providers procure and include in the service, the less platform investment there will naturally be to pay for indie games on the service. MS won't go out and pay $70b for an entire publisher and then spend hundreds of millions on top of that to pay for indie games. From MS's perspective, the value of indie games on GP drops off a cliff when they own entire publishers and are willing to drop the entire publisher's AAA catalog on the service.

Subscription services are shit for indies. You're giving up the potential for continuous sales revenue for a fixed lump sum, increased visibility, and a lower barrier to entry that still requires you to market your game. It's just not worth it and this report proves that.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Surely engagement numbers are paying the bills, right?

 

[Ozriel]

There’s no subscription plan for third party games on the Switch, and the vast majority of gamers on PC purchase their games on Steam.

So the two biggest markets for indies are largely retail and yet clowns in this thread are blaming travails of indies on reduction in subscription payments.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I just find it amusing we've created a generation who thinks GamePass is free.

No you're just paying in instalments.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

That's asking a lot of 1 or 2 person teams. Some great indie games are exactly what you described.

Those small teams have almost no budget to do the things you're asking for. Not to mention a small 1-5 person team may be mostly programmers in college with little to no art skills. Sometimes 8-16bit pixel art is all they can manage. The 1 or 2 artist(s) on the team can't do everything themselves.

True and it's why indie teams need to be very careful keeping the scope of their games within means of what the team members can actually accomplish, not just by what their budget is.

That said, there's a good and bad way to do 8-bit/16-bit like 2D graphics. For every Sea of Stars that nails it, there's at least 10x the indies that completely fail at doing the aesthetic properly.

"B-b-but... subscription services like GamePass are great for indies because they increase indie game visibility"......
.......
..
. until you realize that their entire fortunes become increasingly entirely bound by the arbitrary whims of subscription service providers like MS who can pay them as little as they like for the game deals for the sub; and the more indie game competition there is, the more there's downward pressure on sub-deal dollar payments to individual indie studios.

Also, the more AAA content sub-service providers procure and include in the service, the less platform investment there will naturally be to pay for indie games on the service. MS won't go out and pay $70b for an entire publisher and then spend hundreds of millions on top of that to pay for indie games. From MS's perspective, the value of indie games on GP drops off a cliff when they own entire publishers and are willing to drop the entire publisher's AAA catalog on the service.

Subscription services are shit for indies. You're giving up the potential for continuous sales revenue for a fixed lump sum, increased visibility, and a lower barrier to entry that still requires you to market your game. It's just not worth it and this report proves that.

IMO all entertainment-based subscription services are best served for legacy content, not new releases.

 

[lestar]

Too many low quality Indies. They need to start having more for the basic experience. Music, Voice Acting. No more 8 bit pixel visuals. You’re not standing out. Use the memory of your PS5. Stop creating your levels as if they are playing on 1999 machines With loading screens every time a character walks off screen.

Music and voice acting are price prohibitive, but thanks to AI, there will be a rise in voice-acted indie games

 

[Sanepar]

Subscription is the way to destroy this industry. It was really obvious.

 

[Sanepar]

We tried to tell them. But they still won't listen. Idiots video game podcasters are still saying the GamePass model will take over and be the primary way people play games and that selling a console will be a thing of the past. They are still saying that TODAY!

Gamers are resisting. Subscription services are losing momentum this year in US, i hope it stays like that, if gamers say NO it will never become the way to go.

 

[Crayon]

pretendstobeshocked.gif

 

[NeverYouMind]

I have the controversial opinion that indies don't need publishers unless they really need extra funding for development or fail to captivate an audience at public events. The best indies I have experienced in the last decade have mostly been self-published. Having looked through Devolver's and tinyBuild's catalogue the only recognizable name I saw was Hotline Miami. They do not seem to have anything particularly head-turning on the horizon.

As far as subscription services are concerned, I think there is always room for rental services. If the stuff rented is up to snuff, it is worth buying. I imagine a subscription deal for an indie developer is a lot like an insurance policy.

 

[jm89]

Larian director of publishing chiming in

 

[mckmas8808]

Gamers are resisting. Subscription services are losing momentum this year in US, i hope it stays like that, if gamers say NO it will never become the way to go.

With Sony raising their prices for their subs next, the growth period is OVER!!!! Now it's all about profit for both Sony and MS.

 

[MacReady13]

Writing is on the wall and not just for indies.

With more first party games in the pipeline for MS, third party deals on gamepass probably won't be as lucrative.

Third parties who signed deals with MS congratulations, you've helped MS train the xbox user base not to buy games.

So you've helped crater your sales on xbox and now won't get a massive handout by MS.

Geez, who the hell could've seen this coming?!? I for one am not only NOT shocked but also glad this is happening. May subscription services in gaming and elsewhere continue to falter until they disappear completely.

 

[bender]

Larian director of publishing chiming in

Based on the last year of Game Pass, this shift has felt pretty obvious and it's bound to get worse as Microsoft's first part output gets more consistent.