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[betweenthewheels]

That's Gary Taubes just before he started working on Good Calories, Bad Calories.

If i were to give my doctor friend one of Gary Taubes books, would GCBC be a better choice over Why We Get Fat?

 

[hellboy69]

Just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I started reading this thread about 3 months ago and it inspired me to start eating better and exercising because of seeing other people's results and following recommendations.

I started changing my lifestyle (not a short-term diet) 3 months ago and I am so happy I did. I completely cut out fast food, soda, fruit juice, empty calorie snacks, and sweets in general. Also, I only exercise about 3 times a weeks, 30 mins a day (rope jumping). Already, I have lost 35 pounds (245-210). Another big factor for me melting away my belly fat and love handles was cutting down on carbs. I am middle-eastern so we eat a large amount of rice and bread with every meal and cutting it down drastically has helped alot with my fat loss.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations and contributions to this very helpful thread

 

[teh_pwn]

If i were to give my doctor friend one of Gary Taubes books, would GCBC be a better choice over Why We Get Fat?

Really depends on your doctor, but in most cases I doubt they'd would read either. They're really busy people. The doctor that's most likely to read it is the one that already is aware of it - the doctor that's all over recent research.

Personally I don't think GCBC is a complete picture of the obesity epidemic. It does a fantastic job debunking the original lipid hypothesis and the "explanation" of obesity being simply a lack of exercise and overeating, but I think just focusing on insulin while ignoring how a combination of other fat storage mechanisms and leptin resistance can slowly add on pounds as well. Not to say that low carb, calorie counting, or exercising can't be used as tools for weight loss.

For heart disease, these two would be effective:
http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/CIRCULATIONAHA.104.529297v1
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/5/844

 

[Shaneus]

That's Gary Taubes just before he started working on Good Calories, Bad Calories.

Here's his blog, hasn't posted much:
http://www.garytaubes.com/blog/

I didn't realise he wrote that. It's incredibly well written and very easy to understand. I now want to re-read all your posts re: insulin etc., now knowing exactly how it works :lol

 

[Shaneus]

Welp, been invited over for a family dinner at my sister's... fish and chips. Low carber's worst nightmare!

I'll just power through it tonight and deal with the crash tomorrow :/

 

[betweenthewheels]

Welp, been invited over for a family dinner at my sister's... fish and chips. Low carber's worst nightmare!

I'll just power through it tonight and deal with the crash tomorrow :/

If you can get it lightly breaded you can probably get away with it. I just had some lightly battered fish last night and i'm still in ketosis.

 

[Shaneus]

I managed to have two "grilled" (pan fried, but afaik only lightly oiled) "flake" with zero chips or sugary drinks... just water. Pretty fucking proud of myself

 

[AiTM]

Does anyone have a recommendation on a supplement routine? Right now I'm taking a general men's one a day and and fish oil with omega 3. Any certain brands you guys recommend? I'm not sure where to start looking, and when you search on Google its 100 pages of bullshit, just hard to find good info on the subject of health. Thanks in advance

 

[cubicle47b]

Oh hey, whiterabbit shitting up the weight loss thread again. Good times.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I just realized i have been having a lot of potatoes in my food lately. All baked / boiled by myself, without sauce or anything. Is this bad?

 

[elrechazado]

Oh hey, whiterabbit shitting up the weight loss thread again. Good times.

Ignore has made this thread quite readable for me.

 

[teh_pwn]

Does anyone have a recommendation on a supplement routine? Right now I'm taking a general men's one a day and and fish oil with omega 3. Any certain brands you guys recommend? I'm not sure where to start looking, and when you search on Google its 100 pages of bullshit, just hard to find good info on the subject of health. Thanks in advance

General Multi
Magnesium Citrate, 400 mg (2x200mg). Solgar or NOW brands. Don't exceed this dose unless you're near a toilet.
1 TB Carlson's Lemon Fish Oil

If you don't get sun or it's winter, consider 2000-5000 IU vitamin D3 daily. Real sun is preferable, or a few minutes on a tanning bed that has a similar UVB:UVA ratio to sunlight is preferable to supplementation because the body makes other corticosteroids in response to UVB radiation. Not just vitamin D. The studies aren't controlling this. I'd wager it matters.

In general keep supplementation low. Eat plenty of richly colored vegetables and low sugar fruit and you'll probably get more bioavailable stuff than a pill. But magnesium and n-3 fats are hard to come by from produce and meat these days. They were there when the human genome developed, but due to a farming system based on grains n-3 are nearly gone. Also evidence that the soil is just low in magnesium.

 

[alphaNoid]

Today I hit 199, down 31lbs since starting on January 1st. 9 more lbs until I hit my ideal weight, then its time to lift more and start a cycle of lifting/cutting to slowly peck away at getting the look I want. Right now my routing is about 80% diet, 20% exercise and its working like I expected. When you get to know your body pretty well you know what works. A few years ago I lost 50lbs in 4 months doing something similar. 2 years ago I got married, then had a kid so along that time I put back on most of the weight.

It took conditioning my mind to want to lose it again, and thats all it took. Mainly I'm eating like a machine, by the clock to keep my metabo going all day. I consume about 1800 calories a day, mainly lean proteins but carbs as well. I do not follow any kind of diet, program, routine or whatever.. I simply read nutritional labels and choose wisely and moderately. I still drink every now and then and have even cheated more than I should.

I cannot recall the body type, endo, ecto or the other but I am able to easily put on weight, lose weight and the same with muscle. Either way I'm pretty pleased with my 2 month results, I didn't have a tremendous amount to shed so it wasn't going to come off easy, but did.

Height : 6'4
Age : 31
Starting weight : 230lbs
Starting date : 1/1/11
Weight lost -31
----------------------------
Current weight : 199lbs

Looking forward to getting to 190! I'll take pics when I get there.

 

[chicko1983]

gonna try this IF now.

I used to skip breakfast anyway, never really feel like eating when I get up.

But when I started dieting, I started eating low carb breakfasts and now I am eating crappy type of food breakfasts with a large latte and pretty much off the low carb diet.

Im getting back on the wagon though after stopping around december. Went for a swim yesterday, a jog this morning and about to go the gym now. Feeling heaps better already!

 

[TabletopTictacs]

Are there any simple guides on what's good to eat for breakfast/lunch/dinner? Atm I'm either having a bowl of All Bran or a slice of toast with Marmite though after skimming this thread it seems that's pretty bad.

 

[elrechazado]

Are there any simple guides on what's good to eat for breakfast/lunch/dinner? Atm I'm either having a bowl of All Bran or a slice of toast with Marmite though after skimming this thread it seems that's pretty bad.

That meal is essentially no different than eating sugar for breakfast. I'd highly recommend eggs for breakfast. The glycemic index on all bran type cereals and bread (even wheat bread) is usually higher than that of table sugar.

 

[TabletopTictacs]

That meal is essentially no different than eating sugar for breakfast. I'd highly recommend eggs for breakfast. The glycemic index on all bran type cereals and bread (even wheat bread) is usually higher than that of table sugar.

Well damn. This whole thing is so confusing. I see reports that say eat no bread, eat only wholemeal bread, don't eat eggs, eat eggs. Shit's hard to keep up with. For breakfast this morning I had a small bowl of Bran Flakes with a chopped banana and thought that was pretty damn good.

Does it matter what kind of eggs I eat? Omelette ok? Boiled egg? Does it make a difference :lol Sorry for all the questions, if there's a good, easy to process article written somewhere then linking me that would be perfect.

 

[teh_pwn]

Well damn. This whole thing is so confusing. I see reports that say eat no bread, eat only wholemeal bread, don't eat eggs, eat eggs. Shit's hard to keep up with. For breakfast this morning I had a small bowl of Bran Flakes with a chopped banana and thought that was pretty damn good.

Does it matter what kind of eggs I eat? Omelette ok? Boiled egg? Does it make a difference :lol Sorry for all the questions, if there's a good, easy to process article written somewhere then linking me that would be perfect.

Nutrition science isn't very controlled, makes assumptions, and is funded by political and lobbyist entities that have vested interest in people believing something they sell is good for them. You can't go wrong with eating foods that humans ate for most of human history. But for practicality, I'd specifically focus on limiting added sugar/fructose, gluten grains (wheat/rye/barley), and industrialized seed oils. I think starch/glucose is fine so long as you aren't already obese, and good sources are fruit and potatoes/tubers. Basically follow this list roughly.

For eggs, focus on not overcooking them. Destroys the proteins/lipids, makes it toxic.

 

[fadetoblack]

Hey folks. Been following this thread for a while but now that I'm activated ...

Here's a concerning problem I just encountered today. I've been going to the gym for about 3 weeks regularly, about 3 times a week for about an hour each time, and most of that time is spent mostly on cardio--elliptical cross trainer, then stationary bike mostly. I've also done some rowing, but only once or twice. So today on the elliptical I decided to up the resistance level from about 10 (which I was doing comfortably) to about 15 for about 30min. In the last ten minutes, I got a twinge, shocking but not super painful, in the bit of muscle on my upper left chest, but extremely to the left (we're talking almost arm pit region). I panicked thinking it was my heart but my BPM was (in my opinion) regular and not any more elevated than normal during cardio. Stopped exercising, took a breather, and went home to be safe. I thought it might be stable angina but I've read that that is a pain that starts in the centre of the chest and then migrates into the arm, neck, back etc., but this pain didn't present in the centre (or slightly left of centre where the heart is) but was localized and didn't seem to spread. But like stable angina it seems to have gone away with rest. I feel fine now, although a bit of paranoid.

I'm thinking its either a) I shouldn't have pushed myself on this day because apparently I wasn't ready for it, or b) I didn't give myself enough time warming up because within ten minutes of waking up I was already on the elliptical without having done much in between. I should say, though, that I was feeling fine up until that moment aside from the muscle fatigue.

So what I'm wondering is how to go about my next workout tomorrow, and should I go tomorrow at all? I've been on 3/4 day rest from the weekend so I'd like to start going again this week so that I don't lose momentum. Should I return to previous level, lower than previous level?

 

[TheGoldenGunman]

So what I'm wondering is how to go about my next workout tomorrow, and should I go tomorrow at all? I've been on 3/4 day rest from the weekend so I'd like to start going again this week so that I don't lose momentum. Should I return to previous level, lower than previous level?

It depends how much pain you are in from your injury. Personally, I would always reccomend doing something, even if you are a little hurt, because it forces you into a routine of excercise.

My reccomendation would be to go with your plan, IE to turn down the intensity of the excercise you are doing while you are hurt, and then turn it up when you have fully recovered.

Also, as a reccomendation to anyone trying to lose weight, I'll offer this tip. Swimming. This is one of the best forms of excercise you can possibly do. It's high intensity but low impact, so absolutely ideal for trying to tone up / lose weight. Additionally, it works out so many muscles at the same time it's untrue. Try swimming for 1 hour a day, every day for a month. If you can do that (although I must admit, it took me a long time before I attained the stamina to do this), you will lose so much weight you will be truly astonished.

You also occasionally get the nice bonus of getting that motivating factor of seeing hot chicks in swimwear too!

 

[TabletopTictacs]

I'm about to go for a pre-lunch jog. It's 10 past 3 here and I still haven't eaten lunch but I'm not even hungry. I guess that's the scrambled eggs I had for breakfast

Anyway, I was just wondering what the difference was between carbs and carbs (of which fats) is? I'm guessing the lower amount of carbs from fats the better but what's 'good'? Is a meal with a high amount of carbs ok if only a tiny amount are from fats?

 

[RSP]

Finally decided that I don't want to put up with being overweight anymore. First thing we (my girlfriend and I) did was throw out all the sauces and fast food we had in the house. We're now trying to change the way we eat, and working out in the meantime. I'm trying fitness first, and hope that I'll be able to go running in a couple of weeks from now. We're both overweight, although she is a lot less overweight than I. I'm 6"2, and weigh about 275lbs.

I do find changing my eating behavior quite difficult. A couple of things I changed were;

* Freshly squeezed orance juice and half a grapefruit every day.
* One additional piece of fruit, like an Apple or a Kiwi.
* Eat something else every day of the week.
* Eat vegetables with every meal.
* Limit consumption of meat to 3 times per week.
* Much less sauce with everything, max 1 serving of Ketchup once a day.
* One cup of coffee a day at the office, tea for the rest of the day.
* Less milk (used to drink skim milk) and more water.

I think what I'm looking for is much more of a healthy lifestyle. We both are very busy people however, and with a 60+ hour working week, it is sometimes difficult to come up with a quick to prepare, but healthy meal at the end of a day.

Do you guys have suggestions or ways of coming up with a good schedule for a meal for every day of the week?

 

[fadetoblack]

Finally decided that I don't want to put up with being overweight anymore. First thing we (my girlfriend and I) did was throw out all the sauces and fast food we had in the house. We're now trying to change the way we eat, and working out in the meantime. I'm trying fitness first, and hope that I'll be able to go running in a couple of weeks from now. We're both overweight, although she is a lot less overweight than I. I'm 6"2, and weigh about 275lbs.

I do find changing my eating behavior quite difficult. A couple of things I changed were;

* Freshly squeezed orance juice and half a grapefruit every day.
* One additional piece of fruit, like an Apple or a Kiwi.
* Eat something else every day of the week.
* Eat vegetables with every meal.
* Limit consumption of meat to 3 times per week.
* Much less sauce with everything, max 1 serving of Ketchup once a day.
* One cup of coffee a day at the office, tea for the rest of the day.
* Less milk (used to drink skim milk) and more water.

I think what I'm looking for is much more of a healthy lifestyle. We both are very busy people however, and with a 60+ hour working week, it is sometimes difficult to come up with a quick to prepare, but healthy meal at the end of a day.

Do you guys have suggestions or ways of coming up with a good schedule for a meal for every day of the week?

From my experience, and I know you guys are busy too, I would caution setting a schedule like "Monday - Chicken with pesto and broccoli" or whatever because you'll inevitably get bored that way of the food you eat, even if the food is well prepared. Not that you can't succeed on a schedule with food, but I've found if its done so regimented it becomes less... enjoyable? But I also love cooking so that helps. Still a schedule has been helpful for me but only since its paired with a stable of recipies that you enjoy, are easy and fast to cook, and are leftover friendly (so that you can take some for lunch the next day, thereby avoiding buying junk food at work or school or whatever, and saving you money as well that you can spend on other things). So that rather than say "Chicken with pesto and broccoli" on Monday, you can just put "chicken" and go through your recipes to see what you can do in the time you have and eat what you feel like.

Also, one thing I'd probably also say is that you should add fish/seafood to the list along with the meat. Taking a nice salmon fillet putting it in a non-stick skillet with the smallest amount of oil possible can get it nicely coloured and crispy (if you like eating salmon skin). Then when its almost cooked, throw in some ginger, hot pepper flakes, a little bit of rice wine vinegar and some of your orange juice (and some low sodium soy sauce if you can get away with it), let it reduce to a glaze, then plate and throw on some fresh herbs and in about 15 minutes you have the best salmon ever.

It depends how much pain you are in from your injury. Personally, I would always reccomend doing something, even if you are a little hurt, because it forces you into a routine of excercise.

My reccomendation would be to go with your plan, IE to turn down the intensity of the excercise you are doing while you are hurt, and then turn it up when you have fully recovered.

Thanks for the recommendation. I think its definitely a muscle problem as I remembered that when I was cooling down in the gym and I lifted my neck up I felt it pulling on the muscles in the injured area. That'll teach me not to stretch properly next time (who needs to stretch your arms on an elliptical? you're using your legs.... durr). I feel perfectly fine so I'll probably just go at regular or slightly reduced speed from my previous normal tomorrow, or maybe just hope on the bike for the next couple days so as to avoid worsening the issue.

 

[infiniteloop]

* Limit consumption of meat to 3 times per week.

Why?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Finally decided that I don't want to put up with being overweight anymore. First thing we (my girlfriend and I) did was throw out all the sauces and fast food we had in the house. We're now trying to change the way we eat, and working out in the meantime. I'm trying fitness first, and hope that I'll be able to go running in a couple of weeks from now. We're both overweight, although she is a lot less overweight than I. I'm 6"2, and weigh about 275lbs.

I do find changing my eating behavior quite difficult. A couple of things I changed were;

* Freshly squeezed orance juice and half a grapefruit every day.
* One additional piece of fruit, like an Apple or a Kiwi.
* Eat something else every day of the week.
* Eat vegetables with every meal.
* Limit consumption of meat to 3 times per week.
* Much less sauce with everything, max 1 serving of Ketchup once a day.
* One cup of coffee a day at the office, tea for the rest of the day.
* Less milk (used to drink skim milk) and more water.

I think what I'm looking for is much more of a healthy lifestyle. We both are very busy people however, and with a 60+ hour working week, it is sometimes difficult to come up with a quick to prepare, but healthy meal at the end of a day.

Do you guys have suggestions or ways of coming up with a good schedule for a meal for every day of the week?

Just in my experience of losing over 20 lbs in the last month and feeling better than ever, I would recommend you do not follow the parts in bold.

Don't have orange juice, ever. Well maybe once a week or something, but that sugar is going to kill you. Whole fruit or fruit juice being good for you is a myth as far as I'm concerned.

Eating something else every day of the week, while not a bad idea, can be very difficult if you are trying to avoid carbs and sugar (read: trying to lose weight). Find some good staples and prepare them in different ways every day for variety.

I wouldn't recommend limiting consumption of meat. If anything, you should be eating more meat in place of stuff like bread, noodles, potatoes, etc... I try and get most of my calories from meat, eggs and fish.

Also, regarding sauces, don't even have 1 serving of ketchup per day. Do not have ketchup. If you do, find one that doesn't have added sugar or sweeteners (good luck). Find sauces that won't necessarily make you fat like salsa, hot sauce, etc... Just make sure they are gluten-free and mostly exempt of sugar (less than a couple of grams per serving).

 

[infiniteloop]

I've really exiled sauces over the last couple of months, it sucks but everything has sugar or HFCS or some crappy vegetable oil in it. I don't really miss them. I'll usually go for fresh salsa, guacamole or some frank's hot sauce.

 

[teh_pwn]

I've really exiled sauces over the last couple of months, it sucks but everything has sugar or HFCS or some crappy vegetable oil in it. I don't really miss them. I'll usually go for fresh salsa, guacamole or some frank's hot sauce.

Yeah, you've got to make everything yourself. But once you fill up your kitchen with herbs/spices and you know what you're doing, the store stuff is garbage in comparison.

I use this for a large spring mix salad:
3 TB Extra Virigin Olive Oil (should be fresh. Don't pull out something from 3+ months ago in your pantry. Throw it out)
1.75 TB Balsamic Vinegar
~.25 Ts Mustard (don't really measure)
~.25 Ts Black Pepper
~.25 Ts Garlic powder
~.25 Ts Onion Powder
Parmesan cheese

Not only is this dressing way better than anything you can get at the store, it's also very healthy in comparison to hexane treated, bleached canola/RAPEseed and soy oil.

If it's the meal, I add baked chicken, avocado.

 

[RSP]

Just in my experience of losing over 20 lbs in the last month and feeling better than ever, I would recommend you do not follow the parts in bold.

Don't have orange juice, ever. Well maybe once a week or something, but that sugar is going to kill you. Whole fruit or fruit juice being good for you is a myth as far as I'm concerned.

Does it matter if you take freshly squeezed orange juice (nothing added) as compared to something out of the supermarket? My main reason for doing this is because I basically wasn't eatin any fruit, ever. I try to change it up a bit with some grapes or melon. Should I be drinking something else?

Eating something else every day of the week, while not a bad idea, can be very difficult if you are trying to avoid carbs and sugar (read: trying to lose weight). Find some good staples and prepare them in different ways every day for variety.

Yes, losing weight is the main thing. We're also trying to eat more soup, at least two times per week. It's easy to make and gives us a lot of variety very quickly.

I wouldn't recommend limiting consumption of meat. If anything, you should be eating more meat in place of stuff like bread, noodles, potatoes, etc... I try and get most of my calories from meat, eggs and fish.

I think it's because of the way I eat meat. It was always either fried, and with loads of sauce. I don't have a problem with Chicken, Turkey, Beef or fish like Tuna or the white fish meats.

Also, regarding sauces, don't even have 1 serving of ketchup per day. Do not have ketchup. If you do, find one that doesn't have added sugar or sweeteners (good luck). Find sauces that won't necessarily make you fat like salsa, hot sauce, etc... Just make sure they are gluten-free and mostly exempt of sugar (less than a couple of grams per serving).

Thanks for this! I think there is a 'light' Heinz flavor that has less sugar. But I'll check out the other suggestions.

I'm not an expert on food or diet by any measure, so this kind of advice is very helpful. In the meantime, the most important think I'm experiencing is; I'm feeling better already, and it's a great motivation!

Why?

I've been eating tons of meat since forever. I just always combine it with grease and sauces, now I want to have a chichen or turkey fillet or perhaps some beef tartar (don't know the right US term for it). But lean meat in any case.

From my experience, and I know you guys are busy too, I would caution setting a schedule like "Monday - Chicken with pesto and broccoli" or whatever because you'll inevitably get bored that way of the food you eat, even if the food is well prepared. Not that you can't succeed on a schedule with food, but I've found if its done so regimented it becomes less... enjoyable? But I also love cooking so that helps. Still a schedule has been helpful for me but only since its paired with a stable of recipies that you enjoy, are easy and fast to cook, and are leftover friendly (so that you can take some for lunch the next day, thereby avoiding buying junk food at work or school or whatever, and saving you money as well that you can spend on other things). So that rather than say "Chicken with pesto and broccoli" on Monday, you can just put "chicken" and go through your recipes to see what you can do in the time you have and eat what you feel like.

Also, one thing I'd probably also say is that you should add fish/seafood to the list along with the meat. Taking a nice salmon fillet putting it in a non-stick skillet with the smallest amount of oil possible can get it nicely coloured and crispy (if you like eating salmon skin). Then when its almost cooked, throw in some ginger, hot pepper flakes, a little bit of rice wine vinegar and some of your orange juice (and some low sodium soy sauce if you can get away with it), let it reduce to a glaze, then plate and throw on some fresh herbs and in about 15 minutes you have the best salmon ever.

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm really looking for those <30min prep times for a meal. I'ts basically get home at around 7pm, work out for an hour and prepare something to eat at around 8pm. I do stay up untill about 11:30pm but I don't think there's any way to really eat earlier than this ...

 

[Zinga]

After regaining my fitness over the years and keeping a good weight I have put on 5 kilo's over the past 6 months basically because I got sloppy with my diet again, not necessarily eating badly just binge eating on the weekends and holidays so on the weekend I decided I set myself the goal of losing that 5 kilo's again and 'nip' the problem in the bud before I put on too much. I weigh 78kg/171 pounds right now, and I just feel bloated (my BMI is healthy, but I look and feel better about myself when I was at ~72kg).

I used to have a weight problem in high school and at my biggest I was 240 pounds, and I lost it all when I went to uni and started using the gym membership I had which was the best thing I ever did in my life, and honestly I am scared of ending up that way again.

Anyways I just wanted to share with you guys what worked for me if you want to lose weight, it's really simple to follow and all it does is take commitment to the routine:

For my diet what has always worked for me without fail was this: 3 meals a day (1 small bowl of cereal, 1 salad sandwich and low carb dinner), no snacks, only drink beer on weekends (I love Beer, I switch to light/low carb when I go drinking now) and diet sodas/water.

My exercise regime is 2 to 3 times a week at the gym in 70-80 minute sessions with 30 minutes on the bike and 40 minutes doing crunches and weights. When I followed this routine to the letter and dedicated myself fully to it I was able to lose ~40 Kilos/88 pounds in 6 months.


As someone who is now trying to lose a little weight but has lost a lot of weight in the past, these words of encouragement: your life will be better because of this choice! and you will enjoy the journey of taking your life back under control as you see the results.

Guess i'm just just coming to this thread for support from others that are going through the same thing and to give them support as well!

 

[fadetoblack]

No problem, RSP. I know that some of the most confusing things when you're getting started trying to change your life is cutting through the noise of what's good and what's bad for you.

My non-expert understanding of fruit and fruit juices:

So for fruit, part of the reason that fruits are less than desirable as a main part of your diet (notice I didn't say "bad" or "should not be a part of your diet") is that it has a lot of sugars in them. Most modern commercially grown fruit is grown for appearance (first) and sweetness (second). Its why biting into some fruit may as well be eating straight up candy. Not to say fruit is nutritionally empty--they're great for that, in fact--but in a low carb diet, fruit sort of becomes a bit of an obstacle.

But what's worse than eating real fruit is drinking fruit juice for several reasons. Its easier than eating real fruit in some cases. Think pealing an orange with all the pith versus pouring a glass of orange juice. One: you're more likely to drink more orange juice than you'd get from an actual orange, thereby taking in more sugar than you probably should for your diet. Two: orange juice will never be as good at satisfying hunger than a real orange for obvious reasons (eating vs. drinking, plus it takes much more effort to eat an orange than drink a glass of juice). It sounds stupid and simple but honestly it has been true in my experience that I'll finish half a litre of OJ without even thinking, but I would never have consumed that much orange if I was eating them straight.

So as far as that goes, there are some fruit I straight up almost always avoid except for special occasions like picnics or holidays or whatever. The first has got to be melons, especially watermelons, which as far as fruit goes has an ungodly amount of sugar.

Eat fruits over drinking fruit juice because they'll sustain you longer and you're less likely to go overboard on your intake.

If you have to drink fruit juice for variety, choose your juice wisely. Grape? Not so good. Cranberry juice (not cranberry cocktail, fuck that sweetened noise)? Tons better for you--I really like the Oceans Spray stuff. Same goes for juices like pomegranate. Another trick I've learned is to drink all my juices with ice for the same reasons most restaurants use ice with soft drinks--you'll actually end up drinking less because of the amount of ice that goes in there means a lot of what you actually end up drinking will be water. Drinks of juice will magically last longer, and you'll also have something crunchy to eat when you're done.





I'm not the best at all this stuff, and I'm sure that I'm not doing everything perfect or saying everything perfectly in this regard (somebody please correct me anywhere I made a mistake), but what I have found is that this has been working well for me. Even though last night involved some pretty copious amounts of drinking and eating food I normally wouldn't eat (breaded and fried goat cheese with a tomato chutney? oh god, yes please), I've still managed to lose a kilo today during my weigh in by regulating these other smaller aspects during the week. So if you want some juice, fuck yeah drink some juice, but keep in control of it.



Also, just a quick update, went to the gym today and worked out for a good hour and fifteen. The little scare I experienced yesterday seems to have just been a muscle twinge since I was able to maintain my previous resistance level pretty well. Worked out with the MMA dummy as well today. Punching that SOB is hella fun!

 

[DeadRockstar]

This fruit hate needs to stop. People thinking fructose make you fat is scaring people away from perfectly legitimate, healthy diet foods that taste great. Fruit is one of the best ways to get great taste without artificial sweeteners.

Yes fructose fills hepatic glycogen instead of muscle glycogen but both are required and don't underestimate the drain physical exertion has on hepatic glycogen. The safe limit is about 50g of fructose a day for somebody active. Obviously it varies with body mass and physical activity. Also keep in mind any time fructose is present, glucose will also be present. Fruit sugar is not exclusively fructose. 50g ends up being 2-3 pieces of fruit a day and you're fine.

As for fruit juice and all that, I wouldn't recommend it. Don't drink your calories is a good rule to live by. The poster above me mentioned eating raw fruit is best and I totally agree. It's fiber and vitamin content will always beat the juice equivalent.

Also worth noting for anybody that's weight training, I read studies a while back that showed a combination of fructose and glucose was preferential for refilling glycogen post-workout, rather than just glucose alone.

 

[jts]

I feel like shit after cheating for 3 days straight. Saturday afternoon I weighted 86.3kg (190lbs). Tuesday morning 89.3 (close to 197). What a way to end up February.

At least I'll start March clean slate, hope to make it to 10 days without any cheat whatsoever, and on the process lose all this gained weight and then some. 85kg for March 11th is my short term goal.

 

[DeadRockstar]

7lbs gain in 3 days means a lot of that will be water. It'll go down quite quickly when you get back on track. No worries man.

 

[fadetoblack]

7lbs gain in 3 days means a lot of that will be water. It'll go down quite quickly when you get back on track. No worries man.

So I've never quite understood how water weight works and I was wondering whether or not you (or somebody) might explain the basics of it (except the obvious that the weight is water rather than fat or muscle). I've always imagined that an active person is either going to a) absorb the water into the body and use it up during bodily processes, b) secrete the water during physical activity, or c) expel the water in waste. How much water does the body routinely store and is this something I should be aware of or accounting for during weigh ins to get an accurate number?

P.S. I'm with you on the bandwagon against fruit hate. Not sure if that came through in my post. I had just finished eating yogurt and bran cereal mixed in with a sliced peach and a large banana before I typed that post


On the side note, what's the consensus on soy milk vs moo juice in the morning, gaf? I'm inclined to say cow's milk (I usually by 2% but if they are out by the time I get there I split the difference and buy skimmed+whole milk), but I've recently enjoyed getting soy when I grab a coffee and it tastes really good and am inclined to use it more often in combination with regular milk.

 

[RSP]

No problem, RSP.

Awesome, thanks for your info! I do get your point on eating fruit vs fruit juice, but I want to stress that it's squeezed by myself, and has basically all that is in the orange without the peel or the seeds.

Your point on the high amounts of sugar for fruit still stands though. I think what you're saying is exactly true; it's very difficult to get the right kind of information 'what is good for me'.

Still, I work for 10-12 hours a day, 95% of which is sitting at my desk or in my car. We do take 20-30 minute walks during the lunch break, but actually taking the time to do some workout when I get home is giving me massive amounts of energy!

 

[DeadRockstar]

So I've never quite understood how water weight works and I was wondering whether or not you (or somebody) might explain the basics of it (except the obvious that the weight is water rather than fat or muscle). I've always imagined that an active person is either going to a) absorb the water into the body and use it up during bodily processes, b) secrete the water during physical activity, or c) expel the water in waste. How much water does the body routinely store and is this something I should be aware of or accounting for during weigh ins to get an accurate number?

There's a few things that can affect water retention that I know of. The one most people will come into contact with is salt/sodium balance. That's why people tend to see a lot of retention when they cheat, because it's usually on foods that contain more sodium than their regular diet. It tends to freak people out because they see genuine weight gain from fat but then also water retention and the damage looks worse than it really is.

Another common thing that can affect it are raised levels of cortisol, which tends to happen when the body is put under stress. The body perceives diets with a large calorie deficit as a stress for example, and as such will retain water.

Also water intake itself matters. If you don't consume enough you'll see retention.

As for accurately measuring weight loss. It's usually best to weigh yourself every day and divide by the number of days you weighed. Take that average as your number for the week and measure it against next week. It's the only way to account for daily fluctuations in water and glycogen.

Hope that helps!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This fruit hate needs to stop. People thinking fructose make you fat is scaring people away from perfectly legitimate, healthy diet foods that taste great. Fruit is one of the best ways to get great taste without artificial sweeteners.

Yes fructose fills hepatic glycogen instead of muscle glycogen but both are required and don't underestimate the drain physical exertion has on hepatic glycogen. The safe limit is about 50g of fructose a day for somebody active. Obviously it varies with body mass and physical activity. Also keep in mind any time fructose is present, glucose will also be present. Fruit sugar is not exclusively fructose. 50g ends up being 2-3 pieces of fruit a day and you're fine.

As for fruit juice and all that, I wouldn't recommend it. Don't drink your calories is a good rule to live by. The poster above me mentioned eating raw fruit is best and I totally agree. It's fiber and vitamin content will always beat the juice equivalent.

Also worth noting for anybody that's weight training, I read studies a while back that showed a combination of fructose and glucose was preferential for refilling glycogen post-workout, rather than just glucose alone.

I disagree that fruit can be considered a diet food in any way. If you absolutely must consume something sweet, then obviously a piece of real fruit will be better than any alternative, but if you're overweight or obese and are interested in losing weight, cutting out sugar all together is the best way in my experience.

With that said, I do allow myself one "cheat day" per week, although it often ends up being just one or two cheat meals, and I often consume some fruit on this day.

 

[DeadRockstar]

I'm not sure why you'd want to cut out all sugar. You'd have to be very overweight, insulin and leptin resistant before you'd need to worry about grams of carbs above 100-150, which you can easily stay under while consuming fruit daily.

I don't like the idea of restricting foods too much on a diet, it's just asking for people to snap and binge. Follow the 90/10 rule. Eat well 90% of the time and the other 10% doesn't matter as long as your calories and macros are in check.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm not sure why you'd want to cut out all sugar. You'd have to be very overweight, insulin and leptin resistant before you'd need to worry about grams of carbs above 100-150, which you can easily stay under while consuming fruit daily.

I don't like the idea of restricting foods too much on a diet, it's just asking for people to snap and binge. Follow the 90/10 rule. Eat well 90% of the time and the other 10% doesn't matter as long as your calories and macros are in check.

All I'm saying is that you're better off without it. Also, as I said in my previous post, if you absolutely cannot live without eating sweets, then obviously you're better off with eating some fruit than consuming a candy bar or drinking soda/juice.

Just do whatever works. I find that cutting out sugar completely (as well as other things) except on cheat days allows me to lose weight extremely quickly (over 20 lbs in about a month) and feel great.

I still disagree that fruit can be a "healthy diet food", but I suppose the definition of healthy can be subjective.

 

[infiniteloop]

I find that cutting out sugar completely (as well as other things) except on cheat days allows me to lose weight extremely quickly (over 20 lbs in about a month) and feel great.

Agreed.

 

[reggieandTFE]

I still disagree that fruit can be a "healthy diet food", but I suppose the definition of healthy can be subjective.

Dude, there's a ton of examples (with pictures) in this very thread of people losing weight who probably ate hundreds of carbs a day. Low-carb dieting is only one of many techniques that people can successfully lose weight with. Don't project your experience and biases into grandiose, black and white statements.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Dude, there's a ton of examples (with pictures) in this very thread of people losing weight who probably ate hundreds of carbs a day. Low-carb dieting is only of many techniques that people can successfully lose weight with. Don't project your experience and biases into grandiose, black and white statements.

You can eat nothing but pastries and cake every day and you will still lose weight as long as the calories you take in are fewer than the calories you burn. However, the weight loss probably won't come fast and you can expect to be hungry most of the day, have little to no energy, and just feel like shit in general.

I'm not really making any black and white statements. I said in my last post, "do what works for you". I just happen to disagree that sugar filled fruit should ever be regularly consumed on any diet. The body just doesn't deal with sugar very well. However, if you don't have the willpower to cut consumption of sugar completely, then eating fruit will obviously be less harmful than eating a candy bar or some cake.

 

[DeadRockstar]

All I'm saying is that you're better off without it. Also, as I said in my previous post, if you absolutely cannot live without eating sweets, then obviously you're better off with eating some fruit than consuming a candy bar or drinking soda/juice.

Just do whatever works. I find that cutting out sugar completely (as well as other things) except on cheat days allows me to lose weight extremely quickly (over 20 lbs in about a month) and feel great.

I still disagree that fruit can be a "healthy diet food", but I suppose the definition of healthy can be subjective.

Ok, but what are you basing this on? Personal experience? I explained my stance in my original post. You're saying to avoid sugar, but all carbs you consume are converted to blood glucose anyway. Metabolically it's all the same. I don't see how you can be better off when there will literally be no difference.

If you literally avoid all sugar you're talking about ketosis, which offers no metabolic advantage and since we're talking about fat loss here that's what matters. In the end it's all the same, within reason. If you're low carb, you're low carb. Whether it's fruit, vegetables or whatever. The only reason you want to manipulate carb intake is to affect leptin and insulin levels. Which is why I mentioned the 100g ceiling if you have a lot to lose.

My reasons for saying fruit is a healthy diet food is that it will have no negative impact on your health and in fact only benefits. Apples and berries for example are anti-inflammatory and contain fibre, vitamins and anti-oxidants. All of which are important to the bigger picture of fat loss. Inflammation especially.

You're absolutely right about doing what works for you. The best diet is the one you'll stick to, which is why I think demonizing perfectly acceptable foods like fruit is missing the point when the focus should be on the bigger picture. Eating real, natural foods and avoiding the processed stuff 90% of the time.

I should mention my experience comes from obviously myself and personal study, but I used to train people as a side job for extra money for a few years and I have experience with people that were trying to lose a lot of weight and people who just wanted to get from skinny to lean without muscle loss.

Like I say though, at the end of the day, do what works for you. This is just my experience and hopefully it can benefit somebody.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Ok, but what are you basing this on? Personal experience? I explained my stance in my original post. You're saying to avoid sugar, but all carbs you consume are converted to blood glucose anyway. Metabolically it's all the same. I don't see how you can be better off when there will literally be no difference.

If you literally avoid all sugar you're talking about ketosis, which offers no metabolic advantage and since we're talking about fat loss here that's what matters. In the end it's all the same, within reason. If you're low carb, you're low carb. Whether it's fruit, vegetables or whatever. The only reason you want to manipulate carb intake is to affect leptin and insulin levels. Which is why I mentioned the 100g ceiling if you have a lot to lose.

My reasons for saying fruit is a healthy diet food is that it will have no negative impact on your health and in fact only benefits. Apples and berries for example are anti-inflammatory and contain fibre, vitamins and anti-oxidants. All of which are important to the bigger picture of fat loss. Inflammation especially.

You're absolutely right about doing what works for you. The best diet is the one you'll stick to, which is why I think demonizing perfectly acceptable foods like fruit is missing the point when the focus should be on the bigger picture. Eating real, natural foods and avoiding the processed stuff 90% of the time.

I should mention my experience comes from obviously myself and personal study, but I used to train people as a side job for extra money for a few years and I have experience with people that were trying to lose a lot of weight and people who just wanted to get from skinny to lean without muscle loss.

Like I say though, at the end of the day, do what works for you. This is just my experience and hopefully it can benefit somebody.

Are you saying that fructose is the same as glucose? I certainly hope not.

Just out of curiosity, have you seen this video: "Sugar: The Bitter Truth"?

Around the 42:30 mark he begins to explain why fructose and glucose are absolutely not the same in terms of how your body processes them.

 

[DeadRockstar]

I said in my first post that fructose preferentially fills hepatic glycogen. Also in the video Lustig is talking about chronic fructose intake, which has no relevance to any healthy diet.

He makes the point that fructose will increase appetite. There is literally one study that backs up this claim and the subjects used to test it were given 30% of their intake for the day as fructose. Which worked out to 135 grams. Unless you drink soda sweetened with HFCS like it's going out of style, you're not getting anywhere near 135 grams. If you have to cherry pick studies to support your claim, it's gotta be weak.

Since that video lots of research has been done concerning the topic and all the studies found fructose actually has a positive affect on appetite and most certainly does stimulate the production of insulin just like glucose.

The fact is that the majority of research isn't on Lustig's side. He's clearly an intelligent man with a noble pursuit. He wants to fight obesity. Demonizing fructose without paying attention to any kind of relevant context isn't the way to do that.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I said in my first post that fructose preferentially fills hepatic glycogen. Also in the video Lustig is talking about chronic fructose intake, which has no relevance to any healthy diet.

He makes the point that fructose will increase appetite. There is literally one study that backs up this claim and the subjects used to test it were given 30% of their intake for the day as fructose. Which worked out to 135 grams. Unless you drink soda sweetened with HFCS like it's going out of style, you're not getting anywhere near 135 grams. If you have to cherry pick studies to support your claim, it's gotta be weak.

Since that video lots of research has been done concerning the topic and all the studies found fructose actually has a positive affect on appetite and most certainly does stimulate the production of insulin just like glucose.

The fact is that the majority of research isn't on Lustig's side. He's clearly an intelligent man with a noble pursuit. He wants to fight obesity. Demonizing fructose without paying attention to any kind of relevant context isn't the way to do that.

I'm not cherry picking any studies. I'm just posting a video I watched that explains that glucose and fructose are not metabolized in the same manner.

What exactly does "positive effect on an appetite" mean? Is that just a positive way to say "consumption of fructose will make you want to eat more"? Because that's exactly what it does. What "relevant context" is Lustig not paying attention to?

Also, care to post a few samples of this "majority of research" you speak of that doesn't agree with Lustig's claims? I'm fine with the guy being wrong, but a lot of what he says makes sense. People who avoid fructose completely tend to not be obese. In my personal experience, I feel a hell of a lot better when I don't consume fructose, and I would think that eliminating fructose has played a big part in my rapid weight loss.

 

[elrechazado]

I said in my first post that fructose preferentially fills hepatic glycogen. Also in the video Lustig is talking about chronic fructose intake, which has no relevance to any healthy diet.

He makes the point that fructose will increase appetite. There is literally one study that backs up this claim and the subjects used to test it were given 30% of their intake for the day as fructose. Which worked out to 135 grams. Unless you drink soda sweetened with HFCS like it's going out of style, you're not getting anywhere near 135 grams. If you have to cherry pick studies to support your claim, it's gotta be weak.

Since that video lots of research has been done concerning the topic and all the studies found fructose actually has a positive affect on appetite and most certainly does stimulate the production of insulin just like glucose.

The fact is that the majority of research isn't on Lustig's side. He's clearly an intelligent man with a noble pursuit. He wants to fight obesity. Demonizing fructose without paying attention to any kind of relevant context isn't the way to do that.

I'd love to see this "majority of research" that tells us about fructose's positive effects.

 

[DeadRockstar]

Sure, here you go. Hopefully all the links worked:

RE: the suppressive effect of fructose on appetite:

Melanson KJ, et al. High-fructose corn syrup, energy intake, and appetite regulation. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec;88(6):1738S-1744S. [Medline]

Soenen S, Westerterp-Plantenga MS. No differences in satiety or energy intake after high-fructose corn syrup, sucrose, or milk preloads. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Dec;86(6):1586-94. [Medline]

Monsivais P, Perrigue MM, Drewnowski A. Sugars and satiety: does the type of sweetener make a difference? Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Jul;86(1):116-23. [Medline]

Akhavan T, Anderson GH. Effects of glucose-to-fructose ratios in solutions on subjective satiety, food intake, and satiety hormones in young men. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Nov;86(5):1354-63. [Medline]

Fructose pre-loads result in less intake than glucose preloads:

Rodin J. Comparative effects of fructose, aspartame, glucose and water preloads on calorie and macronutrient intake. Am J Clin Nutr 1990;51:428–35. [Medline]

Rodin J. Effects of pure sugar versus mixed starch fructose loads on food intake. Appetite 1991;17:213–9.[Medline]

There's more referencing that subject but those are the only ones I can link to online.

This is the only study I've ever seen that backs up Lustig's claims, that I mentioned in the last post:

Teff KL, et al. Dietary fructose reduces circulating insulin and leptin, attenuates postprandial suppression of ghrelin, and increases triglycerides in women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jun;89(6):2963-72. [Medline]

Here's a couple showing moderate intakes of fructose have no negative effect (read: no effect) on health and in certain cases a beneficial effect. Note that Lustig only references chronic intakes.

Livesy G. Fructose ingestion: dose-dependent responses in health research. J Nutr. 2009 Jun;139(6):1246S-1252S. Epub 2009 Apr 22. [Medline]

Dolan LC, et al. Evidence-based review on the effect of normal dietary consumption of fructose on development of hyperlipidemia and obesity in healthy, normal weight individuals. Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 2010 Jan;50(1):53-84. [Medline]

Livesey G, Taylor R. Fructose consumption and consequences for glycation, plasma triacylglycerol, and body weight: meta-analyses and meta-regression models of intervention studies. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Nov;88(5):1419-37. [Medline]




Zefah, I wasn't suggesting you were cherry picking studies. I was talking about Lustig's reference for his claims. The relevant context he ignores is that nobody with anything resembling a sensible diet is going to consuming the amounts of fructose that support his claims. The only context that's useful is one people are likely to experience themselves.

 

[elrechazado]

I'm not sure that anything you just posted stands for the proposition that "The fact is that the majority of research isn't on Lustig's side."

Lustig's work isn't about the appetite suppressive effect or not of fructose. And if he makes that point and it's been called into question, that doesn't address the entire thrust of his overall indictment of fructose. So unless your words I quoted there are restricted to appetite suppressive aspects of fructose solely, then you might want to post something that refutes his central premise.

 

[DeadRockstar]

That's exactly the point Lustig was making in the part of the video Zefah referenced.

The truth is though, all of his argument can only be backed up with the use of studies that use ridiculous dosages that are irrelevant to a regular human diet, or by selectively interpreting the data. I'm not going to debate every single one of his points. I've done that plenty offline.

The point is, none of his research is relevant to the average dieter because they will never meet the conditions that he's suggesting will have a negative impact on them and having them worry about things like that will do nothing for their progress or mindset, which is surely the aim of this thread. I don't know why Lustig decided to single out fructose and demonise it, but he's completely missed the forest for the trees.