we're being priced out of our hobby.

archangelmorph said:
Reasonable counter analysis.

Low end labour costs are largely irrelevant to the costs of game development. Game devs don't work on minimum wage salaries.

The rest of your arguments are reasonable, however even still, two overriding factors remain:

1. Game dev costs have exploded largely on the basis of the self-inflicted need for publishers to pursue the entirely unsustainable trend of "bigger, shinier, higher production values" across the board. Only Nintendo pivoted away from that after the GameCube and has since grown to become the most profitable platform provider in the industry (at the very least on a margin basis). When publishers by choice are burning $200-400m budgets on 5-7year dev cycle product builds, well that's on them. Risk diversification in creative industries has been a thing forever (e.g. see the film industry) but games publishers seem intent to ignore and pursue ultra high risk for ultra high reward and basically nothing else.

2. The games industry overall is still on a dollar profit basis (even when adjusting for inflation) 1-2 orders of magnitude more profitable than it has ever been in the history of the market. Even with the excessive dev budgets, crazy marketing spends and higher economic cost bases, it's still in a significantly more lucrative place. This would still be true if global net revenues were halved by slashing SKU costs by 50%.

So ultimately the overall point here still stands.
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No. The facts remain. Labor costs (including game development labor costs) have gone up a ton due to the pandemic inflation and games also cost more than ever to make due to ever expanding scope and much greater production values that every generation brings while the dedicated hardware gamer market audience has stagnated.

This is what has driven recent price hikes such as those from Nintendo. Silly to think otherwise.


PS. The industry isn't orders of magnitude more profitable. Nonsense.

PPS. There is also a tariff and currency aspect to the pricing for a foreign company such as Nintendo.
 
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Kupfer said:
Since new computers have also simply become too expensive, I'm hoping for a powerful Deck 2
Click to expand...

You could get like a 12/13/14400 and a 3080'12G, 16/32Gb of DDR4 and be sorted for the whole generation easy work.

You dont have to buy the biggest and baddest to have a good gaming experience on PC.
And a 6 core LGA1700 + a 3080'12G will easily trump anything they could fit in a new SteamDeck.
 
Black_Stride said:
You could get like a 12/13/14400 and a 3080'12G, 16/32Gb of DDR4 and be sorted for the whole generation easy work.

You dont have to buy the biggest and baddest to have a good gaming experience on PC.
And a 6 core LGA1700 + a 3080'12G will easily trump anything they could fit in a new SteamDeck.
Click to expand...
I'm out of touch, how much for a complete system like that?

EDIT: also 15x the powerdraw
 
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archangelmorph said:
1. Game dev costs have exploded largely on the basis of the self-inflicted need for publishers to pursue the entirely unsustainable trend of "bigger, shinier, higher production values" across the board. Only Nintendo pivoted away from that after the GameCube and has since grown to become the most profitable platform provider in the industry (at the very least on a margin basis). When publishers by choice are burning $200-400m budgets on 5-7year dev cycle product builds, well that's on them. Risk diversification in creative industries has been a thing forever (e.g. see the film industry) but games publishers seem intent to ignore and pursue ultra high risk for ultra high reward and basically nothing else.
Click to expand...
And yet Nintendo is the one charging $80 for games with PS4 graphics.
 
Kupfer said:
I'm out of touch, how much for a complete system like that?
Click to expand...

A 12/13/14400 - $120
3080'12G - $400 - 500 dollars (I chose the 12G for VRAM and that most if not all were never abused by mining(doesnt actually matter), but you could also use a 10G and itll be much cheaper than a comparable RTX4070 or 5070, but 5070 if you can stretch your budget get a 5070).
16GB DDR4 - $40 - Keep adding depending on how much RAM you want.
B Motherboard - $120 (You could probably get one for even less since the 12/13/14400 cant overclock and use little power so you dont need highpower motherboards.)
PowerSupply - $60 - 100


All in ~800 dollars.......consider 5070s are going for 700 - 900 dollars alone.
 
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tr1p1ex said:
No. The facts remain. Labor costs (including game development labor costs) have gone up a ton due to the pandemic inflation and games also cost more than ever to make due to ever expanding scope and much greater production values that every generation brings while the dedicated hardware gamer market audience has stagnated.

This is what has driven recent price hikes such as those from Nintendo. Silly to think otherwise.


PS. The industry isn't orders of magnitude more profitable. Nonsense.

PPS. There is also a tariff and currency aspect to the pricing for a foreign company such as Nintendo.
Click to expand...
Last try.

You're simply wrong.

You honestly think any company ever made $500m-$1B in profit from a single franchise in the 90s?

Either you misunderstood the fact that I'm referring to net revenues and profits, not per unit (& even then it's up), or you're simply deluded and/or don't understand math.

Again I'll also reiterate the point that retail sales was the only channel for commercialisation 25 years ago, whereas today you have all sorts of long tail revenue models from MMO subs, to IAPs etc.

And finally, labour costs have certainly increased but not astronomically so.

In the early 90s the average mid level games programmer was paid around $30K-$50K, depending on geo. Today that figure is probably closer to $50K-$80K depending on geo. Not an astronomical increase by any stretch.

The real cost increase has been scope & complexity increase, such that instead of having 10-30 devs on a project over 1-3 years we now also have 100-300 over 5-7 years.

Again, only Nintendo has made a deliberate attempt to sidestep this willfull charge towards scope explosion, sacrificing "shiny" for smaller teams, shorter dev cycles and hence lower risk, more creativity and more profitability.

This is all entirely factually substantiated if you look at the data rather than decrying/protesting blindly.
 
archangelmorph said:
Last try.

You're simply wrong.

You honestly think any company ever made $500m-$1B in profit from a single franchise in the 90s?

Either you misunderstood the fact that I'm referring to net revenues and profits, not per unit (& even then it's up), or you're simply deluded and/or don't understand math.

Again I'll also reiterate the point that retail sales was the only channel for commercialisation 25 years ago, whereas today you have all sorts of long tail revenue models from MMO subs, to IAPs etc.

And finally, labour costs have certainly increased but not astronomically so.

In the early 90s the average mid level games programmer was paid around $30K-$50K, depending on geo. Today that figure is probably closer to $50K-$80K depending on geo. Not an astronomical increase by any stretch.

The real cost increase has been scope & complexity increase, such that instead of having 10-30 devs on a project over 1-3 years we now also have 100-300 over 5-7 years.

Again, only Nintendo has made a deliberate attempt to sidestep this willfull charge towards scope explosion, sacrificing "shiny" for smaller teams, shorter dev cycles and hence lower risk, more creativity and more profitability.

This is all entirely factually substantiated if you look at the data rather than decrying/protesting blindly.
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Bigger doesn't equal more profitable. The industry is bigger than ever. NOt even close to orders of magnitude more profitable. Complete nonsense. STay in school.
 
If you don't play the latest games on release, gaming is dirt cheap. You just have to keep your FOMO in check.
 
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archangelmorph said:
Again, only Nintendo has made a deliberate attempt to sidestep this willfull charge towards scope explosion, sacrificing "shiny" for smaller teams, shorter dev cycles and hence lower risk, more creativity and more profitability.
Click to expand...
This is between a rose tinted glasses fantasy and an accidental side effect of them using the cheapest tech they can land their hands on to make the most profit even at launch they can (and then sell you revisions and a new generation at ever increasing prices… it is weird to see Nintendo in the over $400 price bracket… since the GCN days their prices kept going up and up, by quite a bit too).
 
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
 
Rat Rage said:
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
Click to expand...
The problem my friend is that we share this hobby with children. Those said children can give two shits or can even recognize it.
Alot of these horrible practices - say microstransactions - cater to these kids. There are plenty of sheep here.
 
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Rat Rage said:
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
Click to expand...
Good luck trying to convince enough people.
 
Rat Rage said:
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
Click to expand...
I'm doing my part by playing all the Battlefield games on the PS3 right now, and I'm impressed with how well they hold up, and in many ways are much better than today's games.
I'm half way through BF3 right now, BC and BC2 already finished. After BF4 I am going to to play Prototype and Prototype 2 on PS3, maybe Resistance 2 & 3 after that, I remember Resistance 1 being trash. My new old Xbox 360 is also loaded with the Gears saga and I'm looking forward to replay those.
My last new game was KCD2 Day 1 because I had to support the studio. The game is still sealed up lying here.

I feel like I don't need new games right now.

But to be honest, even if us enthusiasts realize what's happening, there are 1000:1 brainwashed consumers who don't give a shit about "the hobby" and just blindly buy the new stuff.
 
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Rat Rage said:
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
Click to expand...
The issue is trying to convince people to do it, it's unfortunately not going to be easy, and we here don't make up the majority at all.

I've listened to various podcasts where they've talked about the player numbers of older games being higher than a lot of newer releases, so, there IS some attention there. So at least there's that.

But there's another issue where the video game community/fan group is made up of a TON of whales that just want to spend and do so all the time. It's why so many F2P games are doing so well, and continue to. I wish we could tell them all to stop, but they're not going to, and the money is going to continue to flow in. As silly as it may sound, it's probably not much different than going up to someone that's addicted to gambling and telling them to stop and thinking they will cold turkey.

I was happy that so many people were vocal about the Switch 2's pricing, regardless if it was effective or not. But I don't think we'll ever see that kind of engagement from folks again regarding pricing. At least not until it's too late, unfortunately.
 
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I'm sorry, but "just play your backlogs" is total copium. You aren't going to make a difference abstaining from new games yourself and there's not going to be a boycott or anything. If anything the price increase is going to make new games more desirable through inflated perceived value. Call it greed if you want, but an arms race to bottom tier pricing isn't good for games either.
 
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Rat Rage said:
There is a simple solution to all these price increases: stop buying new consoles, stop buying old consoles with price increases, stop buying 80 and 90 dollar games. Just stop buying shit, especially games and hardware which is either too expensive or has gotten a price increase - AND PLAY YOUR BACKLOGS INSTEAD!

These big corporations will only learn if you stop buying their shit.

Stop being stupid consumer sheep for once - and simply play your backlogs until these companies are forced to backtrack their bullshit.
Click to expand...
"Backlog" is a concept known only to the most dedicated enthusiasts.
Out there, people are very much content with buying the FOMO game of the week, play it a bit, probably not even beat it, and forget about it after a day or two on their online multiplayer game of choice. They don't buy games to play them later. They don't replay games they've already played. And they definitely don't have a console from previous gens hanging around to go back to.
 
GREAT NEWS Switch 2 bros.

Today Microshaft announced they will increase their prices in the US to ridiculous levels and also they will increase game prices!!!!

Now our console isn't perceived as overpriced anymore because the 2tb XSX costs more than a PS5 Pro.

The heat is off and now Switch 2 is freed up to sell as needed. Sony will probably follow suit soon and #gamepasstoo but I think Nintendo will keep these prices right where they are. We won. The industry buckled. Huge success.

Neogaf is PISSED but they aren't blaming Nintendo(and for some reason MS gets a pass but I digress) they are talking about tariffs or some shit. It's like we've been given a new lease on life. Remember when everybody was thinking Nintendo would change their minds about he price and whining in that stream? Flawless Victory. Friendship. Friendship!? No meme can capture my cackling about this. I already own a PS5 Pro and XSX so I'm in the money already. I have like 10 years of backlogs but I'm also a GREAT deal spotter so I'll be okay as long as I can keep working, but these folks are out here in absolute SHAMBLES about this 10 dollar price increase on games. I just upgraded to the clair obscure deluxe edition because I wanted to support the devs, so 10 bucks more is okay with me, I don't buy games where I hate the devs anyway. Also, I'm a physical enjoyer so as long as physical exists I can work something out.
 
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I don't buy most games until they are 70% or more off anyway. Most new releases I can get from Gamepass and I buy the one year subscription codes online for a hefty discount.

They can charge what they want. 90% of the time, I wait for a deep discount or use gamepass.

The new pricing system is insane. The only way to beat them into lowering price is to not buy until deep discounts hit.

High prices help Microsoft by making Gamepass more affordable in comparison. The idea that Microsoft has no hands is insane. Exposition 3
33 and oblivion remake this month, doom middk ages in a few weeks, and a decent selection on top of those.

The hobby priced me out a long time ago. That's why I only buy at deep discounts or use Gamepass. Full price just isn't worth except for a handful of games. .
 
Starbuck2907 said:
I don't buy most games until they are 70% or more off anyway. Most new releases I can get from Gamepass and I buy the one year subscription codes online for a hefty discount.

They can charge what they want. 90% of the time, I wait for a deep discount or use gamepass.

The new pricing system is insane. The only way to beat them into lowering price is to not buy until deep discounts hit.

High prices help Microsoft by making Gamepass more affordable in comparison. The idea that Microsoft has no hands is insane. Exposition 3
33 and oblivion remake this month, doom middk ages in a few weeks, and a decent selection on top of those.

The hobby priced me out a long time ago. That's why I only buy at deep discounts or use Gamepass. Full price just isn't worth except for a handful of games. .
Click to expand...
I do the same. I wait for deals and I home share with my buddy, so we split costs. And best of all even MP sub plan is split too. Very rarely do I buy at regular price. Last one I bought at reg price is I think was Diablo 2 Resurrected.

Problem is gaming can be expensive if a PC gamer is buying gear and any gamer is loading up buying day one games at regular price, and worst of all backlogging a million games because they cant help but buy it even though deep down they know they'll never play them all - but they still add it to the pile.

Also, cut out all the nickel and diming.... mtx, custom gamepads, collectors editions, and any other doodad that adds costs.
 
I've been saving up for a new PC for 18 months now as mine is getting too old and is showing it's age, in 2007 i put together a top of the range one for 700 to 800 quid, now its 3 to 4 grand for the best stuff, so it is way more expensive now, Consoles are jumping up in price too and the games across all systems, i agree with the OP, but the corp's are still making big profits right up at the top level though.
 
Are we being priced out of our hobby, erggg no, as a older gamer i can remember back in the early 90s paying £50+ for games while only taking home £125 pw as a apprentice, im now taking over £1000 a week and 30+yrs later still buying games just over £50
 
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