AstroNut325
Member
Ditto at my work. The seniors are afraid Medicare is going to get gutted. But they are still voting Romney/Ryan come November!
What are the arguments against public healthcare in the US?
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I think you mean Thanksgiving.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
pretty sure jebus wasn't the guberment
Tell that to the Christians that want God stamped all over the government.
Not only that, but it would help entrepreneurship. If you're not clinging to a shitty job just for health insurance you can be free to start up a business. I'm sure there are a lot of brilliant ideas and great minds chained to the desks of some company because they're afraid of losing health care coverage for them and their family. They'll be able to be free to innovate and take these chances, because they know there'll be help for them if it fails. We'd all benefit greatly from this.
I probably should have mention that I actually AM a doctor in a country with universal healthcare (New Zealand). Our union complains more about overwork (which is truly an issue, but everywhere including the US for junior doctors) than underpay these days. That said, we do have a lot of senior doctors that work here in NZ that moved from the UK complaining about the situation over there - basically low pay.
Himynameischris
Member
Well my dad had kidney stones and he has great healthcare and he waited about a month to get them out too so yeah lol
And if they do this, you can vote them out, something you can't do to the management of Kaiser Permanente or United Healthcare if they fuck you over on a rate increase that they don't have to justify to you. The whole reason Republicans are vehement about fighting against Universal healthcare is that they know it's something people will not want to get rid of once they get it, and instead of just having to instill fear in our elderly, they'll have to get everybody to think it's a bad idea and want to go back to privatized healthcare. Medicare's a 3rd rail issue NOW, imagine if everybody was on it. It's also why the health insurance industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying Congress, because if anybody actually pays attention to the rest of the world, they'll realize that this is one place where the Government should be taking up the charge.
Trent Strong
Banned
With public healthcare you have to wait forever to get certain treatments or use certain things like MRIs.
Fenderputty
Banned
You don't want universal health care, you just want to rip off of other countries tax dollars/universal plan. Deliciously ironic.
And you don't have to wait for special treatments - or fight insurance companies - with private insurance?
Actually, I'll tell you right out - you do. My mom's got MS, and she's had to fight with the insurance companies on several occasions d/t one thing or another just to get her Copaxone shots so she can function when the temperature goes up. And unless you have fucking STELLAR insurance, there's going to be wait times to see a specialist just because of the paperwork you have to file and waiting on a health care company's decision.
I know the common wisdom is that the government has a monopoly on bloated, overbearing red-tape laden bureaucracy, but you haven't seen it until you've run into a health care company that is trying to do everything in its power to avoid paying for something. I WISH they ran like the DMV or the post office, they've only ever taken me a couple of hours. Stuff like this can take weeks.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
you tell them
Trent Strong
Banned
I want universal healthcare, but I was just answering the OP's question with a legitimate answer instead of something like "because rich white people like seeing poor people die", or something absurd like that. But I have had a lot of health problems (nothing even close to as bad as MS, of course) and have had to see several specialists. I never had to fill out extra paperwork to see those specialists or wait for the insurance company's decision. I've never had to fight with my insurance company over anything. They paid for everything without a problem. I had almost no wait time for my two MRIs or my echocardiogram or to see a cardiologist.
All I can say is that I'm so glad I stayed with the Navy for 20 years and get my socialized TRICARE healthcare covered for really low cost. I'm also glad that no matter how much they gut Medicare, TRICARE for Life will still cover the rest. My socialized health care cost? $269 per year.
Ambulance needed? $20. Ambulatory Surgery needed? $25. ER? $30. X-rays? $12. Hospital stay? $11 per day.
Ambulance needed? $20. Ambulatory Surgery needed? $25. ER? $30. X-rays? $12. Hospital stay? $11 per day.
No worries, you actually did come up with at least a valid concern; I've had enough people come at me saying "CUZ THIS IS 'MERICUH" that I welcome something that has some basis in reality. And it's good that you're being taken care of (especially with heart stuff, that can escalate quickly), I just wanted to point out that this isn't always the experience one gets.
I would so love single payer in the US, and I would gladly take a pay cut as a doc for it to happen.
However, med school has to become much cheaper or free. That's how it works in other countries with single payer. Free health care, with free medical school so that people are actually encouraged to go into medicine.
Unfortunately, that's why I don't think it will happen in the US. It would take a complete paradigm shift in American thinking to provide free healthcare and free education.
However, med school has to become much cheaper or free. That's how it works in other countries with single payer. Free health care, with free medical school so that people are actually encouraged to go into medicine.
Unfortunately, that's why I don't think it will happen in the US. It would take a complete paradigm shift in American thinking to provide free healthcare and free education.
Unfortunately you are right, but at some point that paradigm will have to shift. Something's got to pop. Our education system is completely broken and unsustainable. It'll be a huge drag on our economy until we figure it out. Add to that the longer we go the more young people will have gone through the system and will want to change it for the better. It'll get done in our lifetime, I'm pretty confident.
We sure did build that..
He is not ripping anything or anyone off unless you count him taking advantage of Canadian govt negotiating prices with drug companies.
Of note, this only pertains to brand name drugs, generic drugs are frequently more expensive in Canada. Also provincial plans there, as a rule, do not cover most routine medications unless you are destitute. So I really fail to see where "ripping off other countries' universal plan" jab comes from.
Finally, most online "Canadian" pharmacies are just web storefronts for pharmacies in Pakistan or India, where drug prices are essentially market based.
Phoenix
Member
He forgot one - freedom of speech (gov). That one should be right there in the bold letters around his bullshit sign.
It's not just doctors but multiple people working in healthcare sector.
Nurses in the US are quite well compensated, so are mid-level providers like NPs and PAs.
Even jobs like physical therapist while financially not very lucrative provide good job security and usually good benefits.
In MA who is the second biggest employer (the largest being the State of MA) - Partners Healthcare. You cut health care expenses - there will be pay cuts and layoffs.
Oh there's plenty more, but that would just be tacky.
Are you still in med school or working as a doctor?
Through no fault of the students/docs, views change through medical school and residency. It's a pretty brutal ride and changes the way you see things, not always for the better. We were shown a study when we got in of empathy and how it plummets with time after the peak when you enter med school.
My opinions probably would change coming out of med school with ridiculous debt.
However, I would still prefer a free ride with single payer, I think.
AdventureRacing
Member
I like how you imply that this is a hypothetical situation. It's not like there are examples all around the world of public healthcare not causing those problems. I mean you actually live in one of those countries.
As much as i wish there weren't people dumb enough to think exactly this they are present in this very thread. Taking care of yourself will reduce your chances of getting sick but you are a fool if you think it guarantess you will have good health.
Doctors, drug companies and insurance companies would get paid less.
So would the politicians taking handouts from the above groups' lobbyists.
I wish there was a way to make people understand how they are getting played. Make them watch that Frontline show? They'll just plug their ears and yell over and over about "mah freedoms!"
Maybe the whole system needs to go under before the drive to fix it will become apparent. Sounds like we've only got a decade (or much less) before that happens anyway.
So would the politicians taking handouts from the above groups' lobbyists.
I wish there was a way to make people understand how they are getting played. Make them watch that Frontline show? They'll just plug their ears and yell over and over about "mah freedoms!"
Maybe the whole system needs to go under before the drive to fix it will become apparent. Sounds like we've only got a decade (or much less) before that happens anyway.
WTF does freedom have to do with medical care? Jesus Christ, the two things aren't even remotely related.
People like you are responsible for the deaths of 26,000 people each year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/20/us-usa-healthcare-deaths-idUSBRE85J15720120620
This wouldn't happen if you made an argument that wasn't patently ridiculous.
He doesn't have an argument.
If you look at healt care expenditures per capita they are going up in every developed country, the US is just ahead of the curve so unless something changes, the system will go under everywhere.
opticalmace
Member
Watching now. Thanks for the link!
Frontline stuff is too basic and fails to take into account cultural differences between countries, especially when you start compare European and Asian countries.
For much more in depth artiles about the alms of the US health care system (also to give you an idea how inefficient and money wasting it is) you probably should read Atul Gawande. He usually writes for the New Yorker.
http://gawande.com/articles
I would suggest reading the Cost Conundrum and the Hot Spotters
Also very good if tangentially related is the Checklist article.
For much more in depth artiles about the alms of the US health care system (also to give you an idea how inefficient and money wasting it is) you probably should read Atul Gawande. He usually writes for the New Yorker.
http://gawande.com/articles
I would suggest reading the Cost Conundrum and the Hot Spotters
Also very good if tangentially related is the Checklist article.
DR2K
Banned
So what happens when you or your wife get a deadly disease that would eat away at your resources? It's just selfishness and delusion on your part. It's nice that you worry more about the national debt than your wifes health.
DR2K
Banned
The sad thing is people like him only start to get it when it's too late.
soul creator
Member
reading some of the comments here, there seems to be evidence that people have been trained to respond negatively to the word "government", not necessarily the concepts behind it. And obviously, right-wingers have been very good at framing things this way, and staying on message. How else to explain comments like these:
this is a fun one
I now propose two things that I think everyone should do before getting involved in a political discussion:
1) Define the word "government"
2) Learn how a progressive tax system works
Cant say I have encountered that here, 4 days for a non-emergency MRI is acceptable to me although I expect that very much depends on each hospitals situation at that time. Have always been able to see a doctor same or next day if required again for non-emergency
Re, complaints that you cant change your doctor, yes you can and concerns about doctors pay, its upto £75k ($120k) plus a sizeable list of bonuses and expenses which compares nicely to the average pay in the UK of ~£27K.
The thought that the current health minister wants the NHS dead and replaced with a US for profit system terrifies me and on its own is enough to send my vote elsewhere.
Half and half
Member
The Frontline documentary posted earlier said the there is no waiting in Japan and no gate keepers for specialists. Also, MRIs are really cheap and people get lot's of them.
They use price controls. That's right, government-enforced price controls, the complete opposite of the free market. And it works extremely well.
most of health care already tries to be preventative care because it is cheaper
problem is preventative healthcare doesn't work if patients are non compliant with medications and treatment
Half and half
Member
Yeah, I'm completely sold on price controls. But how do we control prices in the U.S. when medical school is so damned expensive and doctors have to pay a lot for medical malpractice insurance?
Preventative care is a broad term and it does not necessarily save money in the long run.
A very crude example is a person living to 84 as opposed to 64 - of course an 84 year old will cost the system more money in the end. Certainly it is nice to live longer and most of us want that but to claim that preventative care is a magical ticket to cost containment is IMHO intellectually dishonest.
There of course are controversies as to whether cancer screenings do more harm than good (google up PSA) but there is no need to go there.
A very crude example is a person living to 84 as opposed to 64 - of course an 84 year old will cost the system more money in the end. Certainly it is nice to live longer and most of us want that but to claim that preventative care is a magical ticket to cost containment is IMHO intellectually dishonest.
There of course are controversies as to whether cancer screenings do more harm than good (google up PSA) but there is no need to go there.
Black-Wind
Member
No, I can't think of one legit reason to not want people to have a public option for health care that doesn't sound like greedy assholery about not wanting to have to pay for other people's problems.
I think a major problem is that a lot of Americans think that we're simply the best at everything so it's easy to spread misinformation about other places.
I could talk about this all day but I got places to be ... so long story short, Healthcare is one of the top 5 reasons I want to move to Canada. America aint gonna get it's shit together anytime soon.
I think a major problem is that a lot of Americans think that we're simply the best at everything so it's easy to spread misinformation about other places.
I could talk about this all day but I got places to be ... so long story short, Healthcare is one of the top 5 reasons I want to move to Canada. America aint gonna get it's shit together anytime soon.
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