What is it about the Xbox Series S that worries developers?

BlueXImpulse

BlueXImpulse

Banned
A technical producer at Remedy is happy with the Series S looking at it through the lens of a consumer but with regards to development he seems less than happy.



https://www.linkedin.com/in/c4rm1n3/?originalSubdomain=fi

Microsoft's stance based on their recent Series S video is that it's easily scalable

"We wanted to make the development process as easy as possible for developers around the world"

(timestamp included)

What challenges are developers anticipating with working with the Series S in the short or long term? Is the bandwidth not enough, or is it the GPU?

Infinity Ward dev chimes in



Lead Programmer at iD



Another Remedy dev





Smaller dev perspective

 
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I still think Remedy is making a PS5 exclusive game. I wonder if this developer working on this unannounced game is only making it for PS5 (PC too maybe.)

Maybe he didn't see the Series S until it went public.
 
The GPU more or less scales with the graphic options (less pixels, draw distance, worse shadows, etc.) but the memory bandwidth is less clear. While the image buffers will be smaller, everything else is the same. The models, assets, etc. all have to be moved around in memory and is the same on both S and X, so we have a bottleneck on the S. You might see 60fps on X and 30fps on S.
 
It's been designed to target the same visual fidelity as the XSX but at a lower resolution. Where's the problem?

If MS have done their job right and allows devs to determine whether it's an XSS or XSX based on a simple flag, there should be no issues at all.
 
It is more work afterall, but anyway we'll eventually be able to tell if its existence is having a negative impact.
 
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Seems like he(or they) is more worried about the idea of two separate consoles and potential problems vs having an actual problem.
 
hes scared of exactly what i said in my thread.

series X is just a resolution boost. its not being utilized properly because its not the base.
 
kyliethicc said:
I still think Remedy is making a PS5 exclusive game. I wonder if this developer working on this unannounced game is only making it for PS5 (PC too maybe.)

Maybe he didn't see the Series S until it went public.
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Their next game is with Epic but it's true that last year Yoshida has visited Remedy just after going to Housemarque. So maybe they will release a game together later in the gen.
 
It rather simple isn't it? You design your game around consoles that offer 16GB RAM, fast RAM capacity, GPUs that are close to each in power. Then you have to spend more work on the Xbox version to downscale the game.

It's not just a matter of reducing the rendering resolution (as the case can be between XSX and PS5), the lower spec console has significantly less memory bandwidth and half the RAM capacity. That requires a lot more tweaking then just changing your 4k game to 1080p and calling it a day.
 
Well the problem is simple, anything that scales by definition cannot be optimised.

Now you have 2 different configs (not even including PC right now and the 99% that won't even upgrade to SSD), and 2 configs means two profiles to optimise for. But here's the problem, if you want to extract the maximum out of the 12 flops you have to also stuff that into 4 flops. Lowering resolution is one thing but it ultimately means you have to scale back the higher end. So imagine that you could go 12 flops crazy and then a guy says you also have to get this to run on a 1/3 of the power. So we're now going from Ultra to Medium and skipping HIGH in some settings right? Some effects are going to have to be toned down or removed etc but it's actually more efficient in this case to ignore ultra and set XsX to high and Xss to medium/low. Why? because it's easier. It's faster. So now XsX even though it could easily do ULTRA, we're never gonna see it.

We are already seeing the result of this scalability with HI. So as the lowest common denominator The XSS is in fact keeping Xbox in the current/past gen. There will be no discernible next-gen leap. XsX will have the frames etc but that extra lick of fidelity is going to be sacrificed because of it's little and more popular brother.

Now this would be fine if there was no PS5 and a bunch of seriously talented 1st party devs...but there is and it is going to show. Meanwhile the guys that actually want to harness the XsX cannot go as high or as wide as they would want to because the mandate from MS will be: this has gotta run on 4flops too. So turn all that shit down. It's a bit like saying here's 18 lanes for traffic and 6 lanes....how many cars can you get through this road? We need the traffic to pass through the 6 lanes at this minimum speed or there'll be delays...so what do you do to make this work? You reduce the maximum no. of cars to ensure the 6 lanes meets the requirements. You don't even care for the headroom of the 18 lanes...they're wasted and won't be utilised. This is exactly what happens on PC when you run a game on high end and then take it to low end...only the resolution is the noticeable difference and there is no real indication (without examination) of any true difference in power bar frame rate.
 
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I feel like this idea that a developer can spend all of its time creating the best X version possible, and then one day just click a "Lower resolution for S version" button is so naive it borders on stupidity.

But hey, I am not a software engineer. Maybe it's as easy as forum posters claim. And maybe this console didn't just become the starting point for all 3rd party development for the entire new generation.
 
The main problem is that devs will have to develop their games with 7.5 GB of total ram when XSX and PS5 will have 13.5GB. Depending of the game this can be a big problem and it will be easier to develop their game on XSS then port it on XSX and...PS5.

I can already see big devs like Ubisoft doing like this. It's much easer to up the res (even if not all ram is used on the big machines) than removing assets and decreasing the density of the levels.
 
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Change title from "DEVELOPERS" to "CONCERNED TROLLS"

Xbox Series S is designed around the same technology that will make these games and so many others look and feel incredible. In speaking to game developers, we identified the areas that are most difficult to scale effectively, including the CPU and I/O, and made it easy to include Xbox Series S for developers who are targeting their experiences for Xbox Series X.

Powered by the Xbox Velocity Architecture, you can expect the same benefits from Xbox Series S such as faster load times and Quick Resume. Xbox Series S also supports all the same next gen features including HDMI 2.1, frame rates up to 120fps, DirectX Raytracing and Variable Rate Shading. It will also support Spatial Sound, including Dolby Atmos, and Dolby Vision via streaming media apps like Disney+, Vudu and Netflix at launch. Plus: Dolby Vision support for gaming will come first to our next-gen Xbox consoles in 2021.
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Armchaid devs on the other hand.... :rolleyes:
 
Minimum requirements for Control =>
Intel Core i5-4690, 8GB RAM, GTX 780

I don't think there will be many issues if low-end PC's are still like this for Remedy games.
 
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Kaiserstark said:
Their next game is with Epic but it's true that last year Yoshida has visited Remedy just after going to Housemarque. So maybe they will release a game together later in the gen.
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And Remedy devs visited all of Sony's studios randomly last year.
And the lead writer of Control met with Cory Barlog and the lead writer of God of War for a meeting last year.

And Naughty dog, Insomniac, Santa Monica, Sucker Punch, Guerrilla etc... all tweeted nice things just to Remedy about Control.
They don't do that for all 3rd party games.

And the PS jobs twitter account tweeted out about a job at XDev europe working on control.
They did the same thing about Spider-Man and later Sony bought Insomniac.

And a Remedy dev said on twitter that E3 was important to "convince Sony." whatever that implies.
And Guerrilla Games was sent a letter with a copy of Control from Remedy saying "thanks for all your help."

And there are rumors of Sony buying exclusive games.
And Control DLC launched first on PS4 in March.
And Control came to PS Now in March.
And Control debuted at Sony's E3 show.

I could go on. Lots of smoke... where's the fire?
 
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Journey said:
Change title from "DEVELOPERS" to "CONCERNED TROLLS"




Armchaid devs on the other hand.... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

He's seriously not an armchair dev though. He's legit, I posted his LinkedIn. My confusion is that there are conflicting messages coming from devs and Microsoft themselves. Microsoft said it's easy to scale but it remains to be seen how easy it is.
 
BlueXImpulse said:
He specified what his issue was

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To use simple logic here though, his original message plus his follow-up pretty much confirm that he is guessing there will be issues. He looked like he was as surprised as everyone else by the XSS announcement rather than stating what he is saying is fact. He is presuming from the lesser specs that there will be issues with having to scale the graphics down, but as is being discussed in all of the other threads, the XSS is targeting the same visual fidelity as the XSX but at a lesser resolution. As I said, if Microsoft have any sense this would literally be a flag to allow developers to determine which version of the hardware they're running on and change the resolution accordingly.

I guess as a developer, it would be one of the things which would concern, but until I would have experience in actively developing for it, these are somewhat unfounded.
 
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kyliethicc said:
And Remedy devs visited all of Sony's studios randomly last year.
And the lead writer of Control met with Cory Barlog and the lead writer of God of War for a meeting last year.

And Naughty dog, Insomniac, Santa Monica, Sucker Punch, Guerrilla etc... all tweeted nice things just to Remedy about Control. They don't do that for all 3rd party games.

And the PS jobs twitter account tweeted out about a job at XDev europe working on control.
They did the same thing about Spider-Man and later Sony bought Insomniac.

And a Remedy dev said on twitter that E3 was important to "convince Sony." whatever that implies.
And Guerrilla Games was sent a letter with a copy of Control from Remedy saying "thanks for all your help."

And there are rumors of Sony buying exclusive games.
And Control DLC launched first on PS4 in March.
And Control came to PS Now in March.

I could go on. Lots of smoke... where's the fire?
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Yes i agree with you the only thing that is strange is why their next game is with Epic but maybe it was an old deal.
 
Kaiserstark said:
Yes i agree with you the only thing that is strange is why their next game is with Epic but maybe it was an old deal.
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They are currently developing 3 games.

1 is that multiplayer for that Xbox game.
1 is an unnamed follow up to Control (& Alan Wake) in the RCU.
1 is probably that Epic game.
 
Zathalus said:
It rather simple isn't it? You design your game around consoles that offer 16GB RAM, fast RAM capacity, GPUs that are close to each in power. Then you have to spend more work on the Xbox version to downscale the game.

It's not just a matter of reducing the rendering resolution (as the case can be between XSX and PS5), the lower spec console has significantly less memory bandwidth and half the RAM capacity. That requires a lot more tweaking then just changing your 4k game to 1080p and calling it a day.
Click to expand...

Why would they even consider that ? It is the other way round and much easier for them to go from S to X by just running at higher resolution, RT, textures or higher fps.
 
Well the beard guy in the S Reveal vid says its very easy for devs to downscale from XSX to XSS, and has been designed in that way.
I'm sure most devs will be fine with this.
 
Hendrick's said:
I don't care if developers have to do more work, and likey, neither do their publishers.
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So they get stretch over more versions which means games take longer to finish and cost more. You will care when the delays hit or the quality is worse.
 
Rikkori said:
Shitty devs making excuses, what's new? How about put some fucking work in & earn that Ultimate Edition upgrade money champ. :goog_rolleyes:
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Except these aren't your everyday devs. People should really not overexaggerate the capabilities of the Series A - that's just an argument going to fail.
 
Hendrick's said:
I don't care if developers have to do more work, and likey, neither do their publishers.
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Pretty much. I'm sure he, and some other developers, may be annoyed at the optimization hoops they'll have to go through a bit. But I'm sure it won't be as "life ruining" as some may assume. It'll just take some more work.

A dev or two whining or complaining doesn't equate to all of them.
 
BlueXImpulse said:
He's seriously not an armchair dev though. He's legit, I posted his LinkedIn. My confusion is that there are conflicting messages coming from devs and Microsoft themselves. Microsoft said it's easy to scale but it remains to be seen how easy it is.
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It's not easy to scale when Xbox One is involved because of the Jaguar CPU and I/O. Series S on the other hand is a whole different story and people must avoid confusing the voiced concerns.
 
Everyone saying "it is designed to have the same visual fidelity as the Xbox Series X just scaled down in resolution" has no idea. You don't just drop the resolution on a game and things work exactly the same. On PC, for example, just straight up dropping the resolution puts more stress on the CPU. Certain effects are also far more taxing on lesser GPUs even at lower resolutions. Something like ray tracing, especially with AMD hardware, will require so much brute force it will have to be massively reduced or even removed. I'm also expecting Series S versions of games to rely heavily on dynamic resolutions.

I'd definitely wait and see until next gen games are actually analysed and benchmarked before getting a Series S. You are better off going with a Series X for certainty.
 
I just can't see how it can be an issue as my pc is high end (9700k, nvme ssd, 32gig ram) and if I swapped my 2080ti for a 1080p card like a 2060 or something and reduced my resolution from 4k to 1080p and settings from ultra to high or even medium if needed then I'm more than sure the computer will play everything my normal set up does exactly the same fps etc other than resolution.


How could it not do?
 
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He's see's trouble or he is experiencing trouble? That's an important distinction.

We've seen this story before. Developer makes a comment that he thought was harmless then gets attacked or praised for it by either camp. Then walks comment back and after a couple days it all blows over.
 
Shrap said:
Everyone saying "it is designed to have the same visual fidelity as the Xbox Series X just scaled down in resolution" has no idea. You don't just drop the resolution on a game and things work exactly the same. On PC, for example, just straight up dropping the resolution puts more stress on the CPU. Certain effects are also far more taxing on lesser GPUs even at lower resolutions. Something like ray tracing, especially with AMD hardware, will require so much brute force it will have to be massively reduced or even removed. I'm also expecting Series S versions of games to rely heavily on dynamic resolutions.

I'd definitely wait and see until next gen games are actually analysed and benchmarked before getting a Series S. You are better off going with a Series X for certainty.
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Does that include the developers of the console?, as thats what they are saying in the S Reveal video. Same settings at a lower resolution. And the S has been designed to do just that.
 
I'm not a software engineer so I can't say, but MS made it seem like the games will be scaled down fairly easily. But then I think about Ray tracing, that doesn't scale down so cleanly does it?

Then we have games which won't be native 4k on XSX or PS5, wondering how low devs will be willing to go on Series S? UE5 tech demo was already 1440p on PS5... sub 1080p games down the line on the next gen Series S? I think so.

MarkMe2525 said:
They put Witcher 3 on the Nintendo switch. 3gb of slow ass ram.... It's going to be ok
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That was not easy, and it runs worse than console versions in many areas.
 
BlueXImpulse said:
A technical producer at Remedy is happy with the Series S looking at it through the lens of a consumer but with regards to development he seems less than happy.



https://www.linkedin.com/in/c4rm1n3/?originalSubdomain=fi

Microsoft's stance based on their recent Series S video is that it's easily scalable

"We wanted to make the development process as easy as possible for developers around the world"

(timestamp included)

What challenges are developers anticipating with working with the Series S in the short or long term? Is the bandwidth not enough, or is it the GPU?
Click to expand...


Now we have concern trolling directly from developers? What a world we live in lol

I think posts like this are obvious in their attempt to steer the conversation to a more negative tone.

If I was Microsoft I'd be looking at the motivations of the person behind the tweet. If Remedy announces an exclusive for Sony soon we will know the real reason this was posted.
 
The power gap is too big to just make the same game at lower resolution.
A lot of assets will need to be different between platforms, and that's a fucking hell.
 
Those suits at Microsoft just took a shit on next gen in their greed for both price and power. They always talked about how they wanted to do away generations and here is their shitty plan. It has been proven time and again how weak base consoles limit what can be done to stronger consoles. The SeX will never reach its full potential. Looks like Sony exclusives will be the only true representation of next gen. Buy more developers Sony! Secure more 3rd party exclusivity! Developers please boycott having to deal with this shitty machine so it gets removed from the market!
 
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