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[James Scott]

Here's what I think Nintendo NX will be. A home console and a handheld with a shared game library.

The design of the systems will mean Nintendo will only make one Mario Kart. This singular version will play on both the home console and handheld.

You will be able to play online against people on both systems.

Your game data will be saved to your Nintendo profile so that you can switch between systems and immediately carry on where you left off.

If you buy Mario Kart then you will be able to play it on either system or at least have a discount on the version you didn't buy.

Nintendo will have less software droughts as they wont be providing different games for two different systems. Certain software will be exclusive though.

That's the basic idea I had. I think Nintendo will still try and make some console exclusives but very few of them.
3rd party ports and maybe exclusive VC software (GameCube emulation) could remain exclusive to the console at least a few years

Other than for Smash, what makes the GCN a lovely controller? Sincerely asking because to me it was always the least of all of Nintendo's controllers, including handhelds (maybe alongside GBA SP).

GameCube's bad d-pad and second analog stick prevent it from being as timeless as many claim.

 

[10k]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-CiKbbxw_k

 

[TheMoon]

Other than for Smash, what makes the GCN a lovely controller? Sincerely asking because to me it was always the least of all of Nintendo's controllers, including handhelds (maybe alongside GBA SP).

Just feels particularly great in my hands and the rumble was nice, too. I also have warm and fuzzy memories of pressing Y+A over and over as Link in Soul Calibur II, throwing people off the stage

GameCube's bad d-pad and second analog stick prevent it from being as timeless as many claim.

I think the Z-button is worse than the C-Stick actually. Played a bit of Splinter Cell CT the other day on GCN and used the C-Stick just fine to do the standard aiming thing I'm now used to on modern controllers.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Other than for Smash, what makes the GCN a lovely controller? Sincerely asking because to me it was always the least of all of Nintendo's controllers, including handhelds (maybe alongside GBA SP).

It just feels utterly perfect in the hand in a way that no other controller does.
It has flaws but the ergonomics are unbeatable.
i want Wavebird 2.

 

[Kurt]

The shared lib is already known. Im not sure if this will include each game. But again, they didnt want to reveal the information about nx of what it can do because it could be stolen from other companies. As they already said : a total new gaming exp and so many other statements. It will be different... lets wait and see what is the really big thing of it!

 

[Davey Cakes]

GameCube's bad d-pad and second analog stick prevent it from being as timeless as many claim.

I kind of like the C-Stick for its functions but it doesn't quite work as universally as your typical right stick.

But the D-Pad is definitely a problem. It's just too small.

Some games used these inputs effectively, such as Metroid Prime with visor and beam switching. But, that game had quite a unique control scheme.

Otherwise, the GC controller is one of Nintendo's BEST controllers. It feels great in the hands and has an interesting button layout. That said, it's not like Nintendo has a poor track record with controllers. Even the N64 controller has its moments, and I think the Virtual Boy controller was pretty comfortable as well.

"Timelessness" is important though. Obviously the GC pad won't stand the test of time as well as something as pure as the NES or SNES controller and their "classic controller' successors.

 

[Malus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-CiKbbxw_k

Shit I gotta add Hitler to my friends list. What's the word on his Splatoon skills?

 

[TheMoon]

The shared lib is already known.

No.

Nothing about that is known. Everything about it is speculative.

The thing we know is that they want to facilitate easy/painless/seamless sharing of assets between devices.

 

[maxcriden]

The shared lib is already known. Im not sure if this will include each game. But again, they didnt want to reveal the information about nx of what it can do because it could be stolen from other companies. As they already said : a total new gaming exp and so many other statements. It will be different... lets wait and see what is the really big thing of it!

It's not known for a fact, though. It's speculated about. I'm actually personally becoming less convinced it will be a thing to the extent I previously thought.

 

[10k]

Shit I gotta add Hitler to my friends list. What's the word on his Splatoon skills?

He starts off really strong but then he tends to get over ambitious spreading his ink around the map and it backfired and he tapers off in the end.

 

[beril]

Assuming 3DS software is decently well-behaved, it should run fine on a more modern ARM CPU provided the existence of a software compatibility layer to support it. Things could potentially get a little tricky, GPU-wise, but I doubt those issues will be insurmountable.

I don't see them pulling off 3DS BC without including the PICA200, or at least part of it. Which is fine, that's how Nintendo usually does BC. I guess the question is if they want to continue paying the licence. I assume that for GB/GBA and DS, Nintendo owned the design for the graphics chip themselves, so it was a slightly different situation.

 

[James Scott]

No.

Nothing about that is known. Everything about it is speculative.

The thing we know is that they want to facilitate easy/painless/seamless sharing of assets between devices.

Comparing it to iOS or android, iirc. If it really is that easy then porting to both is kind of a necessity or at least it would be foolish of Nintendo to look at those platforms and not follow suit when their limited output has been a big problem in the past especially when they're getting into mobile development as well

 

[tesla246]

Other than for Smash, what makes the GCN a lovely controller? Sincerely asking because to me it was always the least of all of Nintendo's controllers, including handhelds (maybe alongside GBA SP).

Allow me to explain. Basically it is a love it or hate it controller; it works rather well with platformers, adventure, party etc. (basically Nintendo games) and can be a little bit cumbersome with other genres like shooters, sports, fighters (popular 3rd party games).
So if you happen to love Nintendo games and generally aren't super interested in shooters, sport games etc., the "flaws" of the controller may be overlooked. I believe the following points really make the GC controller stand out of the pack, and are its strongest suit to me personally to the point it being my favourite controller:

-ABXY different shaped button layout.
-L and R triggers with an indent>fingers do not slip of the triggers, as a result reaching the z button doesn't feel ultra quick which you may need in quick games like fighters and shooters.
-Octagonal gate analog sticks; not preferable for shooters, but to me they are the defacto standard.
-Different shaped 2nd analog stick; again not preferable for shooters, but I liked it being "a quick nub" for camera control.
-No 2nd z button. (missed in sports games)
-Awful d-pad (fighters suffered from this).
-Ribbed analog stick.
-Overall less buttons.

Personally it is my favourite controller of all time. Lack of 2nd z button: never saw it that way; was perfect for quickly switching between characters in MKDD or as a map prompt in MP/RE4. I prefer all of the above, aside from the awful d-pad, to the solutions present in modern controllers and I love how it retains the SNES colours. Also, it feels great in the hands and it looks rounded in form factor; in contrast to the square shape of the cube. Love it!
However, I can definitely see why people may dislike the controller.

 

[Peterc]

The shared lib is already known. Im not sure if this will include each game. But again, they didnt want to reveal the information about nx of what it can do because it could be stolen from other companies. As they already said : a total new gaming exp and so many other statements. It will be different... lets wait and see what is the really big thing of it!

There are enough discussions from Iwata and others that it would be better if they can create a game for both handheld / console. It is obvious that this will be the case for the NX. They have compared it with iphone and ipad apps. But yes, its not a confirmation that they have found a solution for it.


Beside all this (power and crossplay). They mentioned that it will be something fresh with a new gaming experion and that we will be suprised. Knowing this, dont count on a console that just has a normal control with high performance. Its not nintendo like to keep on going on previous gen to keep copying the same formula. They always trying to bring something fresh and new, even if its not always the best choice. They will take the risk!

 

[TheMoon]

Comparing it to iOS or android, iirc. If it really is that easy then porting to both is kind of a necessity or at least it would be dumb of Nintendo to look at those platforms and not follow suit when their limited output has been a big problem in the past

That would be directly addressable with obvious cross-platform titles like Animal Crossing or stuff they've been doing ports of or versions that would work equally in either format like Hyrule Warriors, DKC, Super Mario Bros., Yoshi, Kirby, Smash, Mario Kart, Rhythm Heaven.

A partially shared library is a given to some degree (see these obvious examples) but it will not be a universal thing, that much is certain (to me at least).

-Concave analog sticks; not preferable for shooters, but to me they are the defacto standard.

GCN control stick and C-stick are convex, not concave. (easy way to remember: concave => cave => fall down a cave => deep)

Xbox 360 sticks are concave.

 

[blu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-CiKbbxw_k

I laughed more that I should have.

I don't see them pulling off 3DS BC without including the PICA200, or at least part of it. Which is fine, that's how Nintendo usually does BC. I guess the question is if they want to continue paying the licence. I assume that for GB/GBA and DS, Nintendo owned the design for the graphics chip themselves, so it was a slightly different situation.

Out of curiosity, which PICA200 features do you deem hard to emulate on a GLES3 part?

 

[Malus]

Beside all this (power and crossplay). They mentioned that it will be something fresh with a new gaming experion and that we will be suprised. Knowing this, dont count on a console that just has a normal control with high performance. Its not nintendo like to keep on going on previous gen to keep copying the same formula. They always trying to bring something fresh and new, even if its not always the best choice. They will take the risk!

It'd be cool if saving money on the optical drive by switching to cartridges allowed them to allocate some more of the budget to power, or at least help offset the expense of whatever controller innovation they try.

Small, cheap, powerful. Pick two.

Oh man that's a real pickle. I'm absolutley torn on what to do he-CHEAP AND POWERFUL.

Of course Nintendo is probably more concerned about the 1st option than I am.

 

[James Scott]

That would be directly addressable with obvious cross-platform titles like Animal Crossing or stuff they've been doing ports of or versions that would work equally in either format like Hyrule Warriors, DKC, Super Mario Bros., Yoshi, Kirby, Smash, Mario Kart, Rhythm Heaven.

A partially shared library is a given to some degree (see these obvious examples) but it will not be a universal thing, that much is certain (to me at least).


GCN control stick and C-stick are convex, not concave. (easy way to remember: concave => cave => fall down a cave => deep)

Xbox 360 sticks are concave.

Like I said before, I don't think all the titles will be shared, but I think it'll be in Nintendo's best interest to make most titles on both. At least make it so easy to put the portable on the console that it would be throwing out money by not porting to it.

 

[maxcriden]

Like I said before, I don't think all the titles will be shared, but I think it'll be in Nintendo's best interest to make most titles on both. At least make it so easy to put the portable on the console that it would be throwing out money by not porting to it.

If this was the philosophy Nintendo holds, tho, any weren't easy up res HD ports of 3DS games made available to Wii U owners? I realize it's the opposite idea but it would still be a way to increase revenue of 3DS titles. Or vice-versa with Wii U games that would sell well on 3DS and likely be not too tough to down port like NSMBU.

 

[tesla246]

GCN control stick and C-stick are convex, not concave. (easy way to remember: concave => cave => fall down a cave => deep)

Xbox 360 sticks are concave.

Ah, yes I know that. What I meant to say was octagonal gate analog sticks (not even close haha). Anyway, thanks for correcting me, I edited my post. Really should get some sleep

 

[James Scott]

If this was the philosophy Nintendo holds, tho, any weren't easy up res HD ports of 3DS games made available to Wii U owners? I realize it's the opposite idea but it would still be a way to increase revenue of 3DS titles. Or vice-versa with Wii U games that would sell well on 3DS and likely be not too tough to down port like NSMBU.

They mentioned that porting 3DS games to the console was very hard and listed it as a reason they're changing things up here

 

[Papacheeks]

This should be on the 1st page tbh

Yea, and is why the name of the thread should just be NX speculation what we don't know.

 

[Malus]

If this was the philosophy Nintendo holds, tho, any weren't easy up res HD ports of 3DS games made available to Wii U owners? I realize it's the opposite idea but it would still be a way to increase revenue of 3DS titles. Or vice-versa with Wii U games that would sell well on 3DS and likely be not too tough to down port like NSMBU.

Because they didn't have the whole unified development and architecture set up. I thought that was the whole point behind this, they even pointed out the difficulty of doing Wii U/3DS ports in the OP.

 

[beril]

I laughed more that I should have.


Out of curiosity, which PICA200 features do you deem hard to emulate on a GLES3 part?

Emulating a completely different graphic architecture in general isn't easy, and it'd be very unlike Nintendo to do a heavy software emulation layer.

But for a specific example if we talk GLES3 standard, it doesn't have geometry shader support (some newer chips do though). Then again if you would emulate it, it's probably easier to do the entire vertex/geometry shader pass on CPU anyway, rather than dynamically recompiling shader binaries.

 

[Oregano]

I don't see them pulling off 3DS BC without including the PICA200, or at least part of it. Which is fine, that's how Nintendo usually does BC. I guess the question is if they want to continue paying the licence. I assume that for GB/GBA and DS, Nintendo owned the design for the graphics chip themselves, so it was a slightly different situation.

Although AMD seems the most likely candidate for a GPU provider for NX can we rule out DMP at this point?

The 3DS/Pica200 was very high profile for them but admittedly I know little about them.

 

[TheMoon]

If this was the philosophy Nintendo holds, tho, any weren't easy up res HD ports of 3DS games made available to Wii U owners? I realize it's the opposite idea but it would still be a way to increase revenue of 3DS titles. Or vice-versa with Wii U games that would sell well on 3DS and likely be not too tough to down port like NSMBU.

Well Iwata talked about this when he mentioned this being a goal of the new initiatives: it was a lot of work to port from handheld to console because the architectures and everything was so incredibly different. Going forward, this will be a non-issue.

 

[maxcriden]

I stand way corrected. Thanks all. 😊 I guess I knew that and just forgot or didn't think it through. 😅

 

[Jackano]

I don't see them pulling off 3DS BC without including the PICA200, or at least part of it. Which is fine, that's how Nintendo usually does BC. I guess the question is if they want to continue paying the licence. I assume that for GB/GBA and DS, Nintendo owned the design for the graphics chip themselves, so it was a slightly different situation.

I imagine they will cut the BC this time, because of:
- new architecture anyway;
- 3D screen is first in line to be cut off too.

 

[foltzie1]

I imagine they will cut the BC this time, because of:
- new architecture anyway;
- 3D screen is first in line to be cut off too.

Will be fascinating, they are currently doing VC on everything up to and including the DS in some fashion except for the Gamecube and Virtual Boy. I can't imagine them not doing a 3DS VC on the new system. Then again, I assumed GCN VC by now.

 

[blu]

Emulating a completely different graphic architecture in general isn't easy, and it'd be very unlike Nintendo to do a heavy software emulation layer.

But for a specific example if we talk GLES3 standard, it doesn't have geometry shader support (some newer chips do though). Then again if you would emulate it, it's probably easier to do the entire vertex/geometry shader pass on CPU anyway, rather than dynamically recompiling shader binaries.

Thanks. So PICA200 can indeed be a challenge to emulate with its bag of features. And even if they used a CPU core to do the vertex work it could be suboptimal - it would be power-inefficient for the task.

 

[Oregano]

Although AMD seems the most likely candidate for a GPU provider for NX can we rule out DMP at this point?

The 3DS/Pica200 was very high profile for them but admittedly I know little about them.

Following up on this I thought I'd take a quick look at DMP's website and they do have the Smaph-S which is an OpenGL ES3.0 compliant, low power GPU. It can also be from 1-4 cores. In the highlights section:

Dynamically Scalable for a Variety of Digital Applications
SMAPH-S incorporates DMP’s latest graphics architecture to extend up to four cores. The graphics IP core delivers greater scalability to support a wide range of digital applications including digital cameras, printers, smartphones, tablets, and portable game consoles.

So it's definitely an option.

Also on another note I did see this and consider trying to convince people it was NX.

 

[shrubsy_tree]

Nope. 12 cores of A53's and 8GB of GDDR5.

Wait ... is this a real rumor?

 

[blu]

Following up on this I thought I'd take a quick look at DMP's website and they do have the Smaph-S which is an OpenGL ES3.0 compliant, low power GPU. It can also be from 1-4 cores. In the highlights section:



So it's definitely an option.

Also on another note I did see this and consider trying to convince people it was NX.

Hmm. It's a GLES3 / CL1.1 (most likely EP) device. Seems like a direct competitor to Vivante's GC series (who also claim smallest area).

 

[beril]

I imagine they will cut the BC this time, because of:
- new architecture anyway;
- 3D screen is first in line to be cut off too.

They've already released one 3DS model without the 3D screen and every game will work perfectly without it so that's not really an issue.
And the graphics architecture has been completely different on most of their handhelds (except GBA->DS) so that's nothing new. I'm not sure how much die space the PICA would take up on a modern chip or how much they'd have to pay for it, but it should be doable.

I'm obviously biased though as I want all new NX owners to be able to buy 3DS eShop games.

 

[Malus]

Wait ... is this a real rumor?

Nope.

 

[shrubsy_tree]

Nope.

haha thanks... people shouldn't just fart out random specs in a thread like this.

 

[10k]

What if the NX is a shield type device? Let's you stream other consoles games and PC games to your tv through the NX system.

Sorry if I'm being all random I'm just trying to see how that old tweet about NX playing PS4 games could work. Although I guess you'd need access to those OS's to make it work so I guess that's a no.

 

[Oregano]

Hmm. It's a GLES3 / CL1.1 (most likely EP) device. Seems like a direct competitor to Vivante's GC series (who also claim smallest area).

Does that seem like the type of thing Nintendo would go for? It does look like Nintendo is one of DMP's biggest customers and they did add new features/functions to the Pica200 for Nintendo.

They've already released one 3DS model without the 3D screen and every game will work perfectly without it so that's not really an issue.
And the graphics architecture has been completely different on most of their handhelds (except GBA->DS) so that's nothing new. I'm not sure how much die space the PICA would take up on a modern chip or how much they'd have to pay for it, but it should be doable.

I'm obviously biased though as I want all new NX owners to be able to buy 3DS eShop games.

But if development is easy enough you could port the Wii U collection for easy cash.

 

[Kimawolf]

I'll see you in a year when no third party gives a shit about NX.

If the NX sells those rumored 20 million units I'm a year then I don't see 3rd parties ignoring them. It's all about money for the most part.

 

[Thraktor]

They've already released one 3DS model without the 3D screen and every game will work perfectly without it so that's not really an issue.
And the graphics architecture has been completely different on most of their handhelds (except GBA->DS) so that's nothing new. I'm not sure how much die space the PICA would take up on a modern chip or how much they'd have to pay for it, but it should be doable.

I'm obviously biased though as I want all new NX owners to be able to buy 3DS eShop games.

Well here's the original 3DS SoC, which is 42.24mm² at 45nm (courtesy of Fourth Storm earlier in this thread):

As far as I know the top right red-shaded block is the CPU, then you've got four big 1.5MB SRAM blocks for the VRAM, then a crapload more SRAM on there for good measure. The actual GPU logic, even if you assume that it consists of everything that isn't CPU or VRAM, isn't actually all that big. Scaled down to 28nm the PICA200 shouldn't take up all that much die space at all (and that's if they implement the entire thing, rather than just the components which aren't easily emulated). The bigger issue would arguably be the VRAM (which would need to be at least 10MB for n3DS BC), although Nintendo does like those split memory pools, so they'd probably be going for on-die VRAM anyway.

Following up on this I thought I'd take a quick look at DMP's website and they do have the Smaph-S which is an OpenGL ES3.0 compliant, low power GPU. It can also be from 1-4 cores. In the highlights section:

So it's definitely an option.

SMAPH-S is about four years old now, and their more recent announcements have revolved around 2D GPUs and ultra-small GPUs like their ant series. That's not to say they couldn't be providing something for the NX handheld, but if anything I'd expect it to be a custom unannounced design.

 

[Jackano]

Will be fascinating, they are currently doing VC on everything up to and including the DS in some fashion except for the Gamecube and Virtual Boy. I can't imagine them not doing a 3DS VC on the new system. Then again, I assumed GCN VC by now.

Not sure what you mean. VC is in a bad state and DS games aren't exactly "VC".

They've already released one 3DS model without the 3D screen and every game will work perfectly without it so that's not really an issue.
And the graphics architecture has been completely different on most of their handhelds (except GBA->DS) so that's nothing new. I'm not sure how much die space the PICA would take up on a modern chip or how much they'd have to pay for it, but it should be doable.

I'm obviously biased though as I want all new NX owners to be able to buy 3DS eShop games.

Héhé!

Yes actually it's true they can keep doing what they did everytime, releasing hardware BC. This have a cost and can likely be cut later like they did with the GBmicro and DSi (IIRC).
Still, in one hand in today's mobiles/tablets world + with 3DS initial price point too high, they may want to do everything to keep the price down from the very first NX handheld.

And in other hand, we already see more 3DS/WiiU developments, well 2 (Hyrule Warriors and Smash Bros). I believe this is where NX handheld is heading (NX "absorbs WiiU architecture"), and somehow I can see more dumbed down WiiU ports rather than keeping 3DS BC at all costs. And eventually 3DS ports at some point.

 

[Oregano]

SMAPH-S is about four years old now, and their more recent announcements have revolved around 2D GPUs and ultra-small GPUs like their ant series. That's not to say they couldn't be providing something for the NX handheld, but if anything I'd expect it to be a custom unannounced design.

Ahhh that's good to know then. How old was the Pica200 when the 3DS came out though?

 

[Thraktor]

Ahhh that's good to know then. How old was the Pica200 when the 3DS came out though?

Actually, now that I look into it, even older than the SMAPH-S is now. It was made available in 2006, which is about 5 years before the 3DS launch.

 

[beril]

Well here's the original 3DS SoC, which is 42.24mm² at 45nm (courtesy of Fourth Storm earlier in this thread):

As far as I know the top right red-shaded block is the CPU, then you've got four big 1.5MB SRAM blocks for the VRAM, then a crapload more SRAM on there for good measure. The actual GPU logic, even if you assume that it consists of everything that isn't CPU or VRAM, isn't actually all that big. Scaled down to 28nm the PICA200 shouldn't take up all that much die space at all (and that's if they implement the entire thing, rather than just the components which aren't easily emulated). The bigger issue would arguably be the VRAM (which would need to be at least 10MB for n3DS BC), although Nintendo does like those split memory pools, so they'd probably be going for on-die VRAM anyway.

Thanks, I've been curious to see that chip but couldn't find anything.

Yeah that's a lot of RAM. It has pretty much a full DS on there as well, which itself is pretty much two GBAs plus some other stuff, so that's a lot of different RAM pools.

 

[Oregano]

Actually, now that I look into it, even older than the SMAPH-S is now. It was made available in 2006, which is about 5 years before the 3DS launch.

Yeah, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. It is worth noting that DMP customised the Pica200 for the 3DS because they added a function called 3DSquare(IIRC) which was meant to reduce the overhead for rendering graphics in stereoscopic 3D.

 

[shrubsy_tree]

I know I'm in the minority but half of me wants Nintendo to cut Backwards compatibility at least on the hardware level... It would really give them the freedom to do what they need to do chip-wise to achieve whatever their goal is. I feel in some ways BC is holding them back... (as much as I love my 3DS library)...

 

[Rodin]

Does DMP even have something that can compete with modern PowerVR and Adreno GPUs, or with something that AMD could cook for the handheld? And wouldn't such a different GPU architecture cause problems in cross development with the home?

Unless i'm missing some of their offers and the advancements in their architectures, i'd say DMP is the worst and most... "out of context" choice they could make for the handheld. By far. Who cares about the 3DS BC, just make something powerful enough to emulate it if you want people to be able to play 3DS games on NX.

 

[Hispanic! At the Disco]

Here's my guess on the NX, and to me is the best outcome that creates a large library without making the handheld way overpriced nor does it weaken the home console.

Mobile games -> Handheld games -> Console games.

All mobile games can be played on console and handheld, all handheld games can be played on console. IF the game supports it, console games can be playable on handheld.

Lets say Super Mario NX has beautiful visuals on console that you just cant do on the handheld, but if played on the NX Handheld you have a selection of minigames, or even a weaker version of the console mario. Or maybe it has the original Super Mario Bros and you can play that too on the handheld. All they need to do is put something like "Minor Hanheld Support" on the box.

 

[Malus]

Lets say Super Mario NX has beautiful visuals on console that you just cant do on the handheld, but if played on the NX Handheld you have a selection of minigames, or even a weaker version of the console mario. Or maybe it has the original Super Mario Bros and you can play that too on the handheld. All they need to do is put something like "Minor Hanheld Support" on the box.

I can see that going down badly lol.

 

[Thraktor]

Thanks, I've been curious to see that chip but couldn't find anything.

Yeah that's a lot of RAM. It has pretty much a full DS on there as well, which itself is pretty much two GBAs plus some other stuff, so that's a lot of different RAM pools.

Yeah, that'd explain all the extra SRAM pools on there. I just had a quick look into it, and the DS had a rather elaborate memory system to say the least.