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Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

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ronito

Member
Because they can charge that much, stupid!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...280-in-france/2011/08/25/gIQAVHztoR_blog.html

There is a simple reason health care in the United States costs more than it does anywhere else: The prices are higher.

That may sound obvious. But it is, in fact, key to understanding one of the most pressing problems facing our economy. In 2009, Americans spent $7,960 per person on health care. Our neighbors in Canada spent $4,808. The Germans spent $4,218. The French, $3,978. If we had the per-person costs of any of those countries, America’s deficits would vanish. Workers would have much more money in their pockets. Our economy would grow more quickly, as our exports would be more competitive.

There are many possible explanations for why Americans pay so much more. It could be that we’re sicker. Or that we go to the doctor more frequently. But health researchers have largely discarded these theories. As Gerard Anderson, Uwe Reinhardt, Peter Hussey and Varduhi Petrosyan put it in the title of their influential 2003 study on international health-care costs, “it’s the prices, stupid.”

As it’s difficult to get good data on prices, that paper blamed prices largely by eliminating the other possible culprits. They authors considered, for instance, the idea that Americans were simply using more health-care services, but on close inspection, found that Americans don’t see the doctor more often or stay longer in the hospital than residents of other countries. Quite the opposite, actually. We spend less time in the hospital than Germans and see the doctor less often than the Canadians.

“The United States spends more on health care than any of the other OECD countries spend, without providing more services than the other countries do,” they concluded. “This suggests that the difference in spending is mostly attributable to higher prices of goods and services.”

On Friday, the International Federation of Health Plans — a global insurance trade association that includes more than 100 insurers in 25 countries — released more direct evidence. It surveyed its members on the prices paid for 23 medical services and products in different countries, asking after everything from a routine doctor’s visit to a dose of Lipitor to coronary bypass surgery. And in 22 of 23 cases, Americans are paying higher prices than residents of other developed countries. Usually, we’re paying quite a bit more. The exception is cataract surgery, which appears to be costlier in Switzerland, though cheaper everywhere else.

Prices don’t explain all of the difference between America and other countries. But they do explain a big chunk of it. The question, of course, is why Americans pay such high prices — and why we haven’t done anything about it.

“Other countries negotiate very aggressively with the providers and set rates that are much lower than we do,” Anderson says. They do this in one of two ways. In countries such as Canada and Britain, prices are set by the government. In others, such as Germany and Japan, they’re set by providers and insurers sitting in a room and coming to an agreement, with the government stepping in to set prices if they fail.

In America, Medicare and Medicaid negotiate prices on behalf of their tens of millions of members and, not coincidentally, purchase care at a substantial markdown from the commercial average. But outside that, it’s a free-for-all. Providers largely charge what they can get away with, often offering different prices to different insurers, and an even higher price to the uninsured.

Health care is an unusual product in that it is difficult, and sometimes impossible, for the customer to say “no.” In certain cases, the customer is passed out, or otherwise incapable of making decisions about her care, and the decisions are made by providers whose mandate is, correctly, to save lives rather than money.

In other cases, there is more time for loved ones to consider costs, but little emotional space to do so — no one wants to think there was something more they could have done to save their parent or child. It is not like buying a television, where you can easily comparison shop and walk out of the store, and even forgo the purchase if it’s too expensive. And imagine what you would pay for a television if the salesmen at Best Buy knew that you couldn’t leave without making a purchase.

“In my view, health is a business in the United States in quite a different way than it is elsewhere,” says Tom Sackville, who served in Margaret Thatcher’s government and now directs the IFHP. “It’s very much something people make money out of. There isn’t too much embarrassment about that compared to Europe and elsewhere.”

The result is that, unlike in other countries, sellers of health-care services in America have considerable power to set prices, and so they set them quite high. Two of the five most profitable industries in the United States — the pharmaceuticals industry and the medical device industry — sell health care. With margins of almost 20 percent, they beat out even the financial sector for sheer profitability.

The players sitting across the table from them — the health insurers — are not so profitable. In 2009, their profit margins were a mere 2.2 percent. That’s a signal that the sellers have the upper hand over the buyers.

This is a good deal for residents of other countries, as our high spending makes medical innovations more profitable. “We end up with the benefits of your investment,” Sackville says. “You’re subsidizing the rest of the world by doing the front-end research.”

But many researchers are skeptical that this is an effective way to fund medical innovation. “We pay twice as much for brand-name drugs as most other industrialized countries,” Anderson says. “But the drug companies spend only 12 percent of their revenues on innovation. So yes, some of that money goes to innovation, but only 12 percent of it.”

And others point out that you also need to account for the innovations and investments that our spending on health care is squeezing out. “There are opportunity costs,” says Reinhardt, an economist at Princeton. “The money we spend on health care is money we don’t spend educating our children, or investing in infrastructure, scientific research and defense spending. So if what this means is we ultimately have overmedicalized, poorly educated Americans competing with China, that’s not a very good investment.”

But as simple an explanation as “the prices are higher” is, it is a devilishly difficult problem to fix. Those prices, for one thing, mean profits for a large number of powerful — and popular — industries. For another, centralized bargaining cuts across the grain of America’s skepticism of government solutions. In the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit, for instance, Congress expressly barred Medicare from negotiating the prices of drugs that it was paying for.

The 2010 health-reform law does little to directly address prices. It includes provisions forcing hospitals to publish their prices, which would bring more transparency to this issue, and it gives lawmakers more tools and more information they could use to address prices at some future date. The hope is that by gathering more data to find out which treatments truly work, the federal government will eventually be able to set prices based on the value of treatments, which would be easier than simply setting lower prices across-the-board. But this is, for the most part, a fight the bill ducked, which is part of the reason that even its most committed defenders don’t think we’ll be paying anything like what they’re paying in other countries anytime soon.

“There is so much inefficiency in our system, that there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit we can deal with before we get into regulating people’s prices.” says Len Nichols, director of the Center for Health Policy Research and Ethics at George Mason University. “Maybe, after we’ve cut waste for 10 years, we’ll be ready to have a discussion over prices.”

And some economists warn that though high prices help explain why America spends so much more on health care than other countries, cutting prices is no cure-all if it doesn’t also cut the rate of growth. After all, if you drop prices by 20 percent, but health-care spending still grows by seven percent a year, you’ve wiped out the savings in three years.

Even so, Anderson says, “if I could change one thing in the United States to bring down total health expenditures, it would definitely be the prices.”

also, who pays $1,080 for an MRI? I got one about 4 years ago and it was an even $2,000. I can only imagine what it is now.
 

isny

napkin dispenser
Our neighbors in Canada spent $4,808.

*high five*

/Canada

lolwut? Why would anyone in Canada spend almost 5k per year on health care?

The only health care I've paid for in Canada is massages and chiropractic care. Both of which are covered at 75% by my work insurance policy though, so even then I only pay a couple of hundred per year.

Also, I thought they also had free health care in Europe?
 
^ We had a discussion about this the other day.

Basically, medical care/drug providers can charge whatever they want. There is currently no force in the market place driving prices down. It's very close to price fixing/collusion.

Insurers pay whatever medical providers charge. Employers pay whatever insurers charge. And employees pay whatever employers take out of their pay-check. This is not a healthy 'free market' system.

What I don't get is why insurers don't use the fact that they buy medical care in bulk to control prices (to some extent).
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
also, who pays $1,080 for an MRI? I got one about 4 years ago and it was an even $2,000. I can only imagine what it is now.
what the fuck

This thread just redoubled my interest in health insurance packages for travellers/tourists. A couple of years back I had some awful belly ache that made me fear an apendicitis. I was in New York at the time. I don't want to imagine the size of the bill had I go to the hospital.
 

ronito

Member
lolwut? Why would anyone in Canada spend almost 5k per year on health care?

The only health care I've paid for in Canada is massages and chiropractic care. Both of which are covered at 75% by my work insurance policy though, so even then I only pay a couple of hundred per year.

Also, I thought they also had free health care in Europe?

maybe they're counting how much of your taxes goes to paying healthcare.
 

genjiZERO

Member
I believe they're only $100 in Japan. They're so cheap simply because the government refuses to pay more for them/.

Also related: recently I had a chance to talk to an healthcare and economics physician and asked him about "price tag" medicine. He said variations of that have been tried in the recent past, but they were unsuccessful at lowering costs.

edit: people suggesting it costs nothing in Canada - it doesn't. It cost the government (thus you) money.

edit 2: the argument that the US is subsidising health care research is bullshit. MRI research was simultaneous done by US/UK/USSR scientists.
 

squidyj

Member
lolwut? Why would anyone in Canada spend almost 5k per year on health care?

The only health care I've paid for in Canada is massages and chiropractic care. Both of which are covered at 75% by my work insurance policy though, so even then I only pay a couple of hundred per year.

Also, I thought they also had free health care in Europe?

In taxes. and Blue Cross shit. and then probably deductibles on prescriptions and other things.
 

Caleb187

Member
I'm in the US and had an MRI of my knee about a month ago. total was $4024 before insurance deductions. I think I'm still going to have to pay about $1000 once I get my final bill.
 

gcubed

Member
what the fuck

This thread just redoubled my interest in health insurance packages for travellers/tourists. A couple of years back I had some awful belly ache that made me fear an apendicitis. I was in New York at the time. I don't want to imagine the size of the bill had I go to the hospital.

you were only a few hour ride to canada
 

Rich!

Member
I had an MRI three weeks ago, and it was free.

Yes, I live in the UK. Never had any issues with the NHS whatsoever, and have never EVER had to pay for any operations or treatment before in my life, apart from the measly £7 standard fee for prescriptions.
 

Aeonin

Member
My girlfriend had bad stomach pains a couple years ago, we weren't sure but thought it may be something. We went to the hospital for about an hour, the doctor did a quick 15 min check, decided it was nothing - and charged us $900.

My mother had to go into the hospital for a check up, they offered to pick her up in an ambulance (non-emergency). They never told her it would cost $800.00, till afterwards.

I'm completely fucking tired of our USA bullshit health care system.
 

isny

napkin dispenser
In taxes. and Blue Cross shit. and then probably deductibles on prescriptions and other things.

I can see that if they consider taxes, but out of pocket expenses, even on drugs, would never be anywhere near that. Prescription drugs are hella cheap even without work benefits which cover up to 90% of the prescription cost.

Canada: USA w/ Healthcare

/Canada

If this was true I wouldn't be living in Canada. We're so much better than the U.S., even without the "free" healthcare.

I had an MRI three weeks ago, and it was free.

Yes, I live in the UK. Never had any issues with the NHS whatsoever, and have never EVER had to pay for any operations or treatment before in my life, apart from the measly £7 standard fee for prescriptions.

The U.K. is awesome. They even pay for your taxi fare to the hospital on your way out, lol
 
All of the "YAY CANADA!" people are neglecting to mention that, while not having to pay for MRIs or visits to specialists or other such procedures, there's a very real risk of dying of old age while on the waiting list.

Seriously, it can take forever. Forever. No one ever seems to mention that part!
 

Rich!

Member
There's just no way I could live in the US with medical bills that high, even with insurance, it's crazy.

Yeah, it's fucking retarded.

My girlfriend has a heart condition, and we've been in and out of hospital numerous times. She's had two operations and regular check-ups over the past four years - and it hasn't cost us a penny. And it's saved her life.

I dread to think just how FUCKED we would be if we lived in America. Jesus christ. We have been absolutely broke over the past few years - and we've still been able to get top class healthcare. And the waiting times were absolutely minimal for both of us with any procedures.
 
It's crazy how freeing it feels to not have to worry about medical stuff. There's been so many times where I've gotten a crazy amount of tests done and it was all great and free and it's just a burden I'm glad I don't ever have to worry about.

Taxes aint no shiteee.
 

genjiZERO

Member
I had an MRI three weeks ago, and it was free.

Yes, I live in the UK. Never had any issues with the NHS whatsoever, and have never EVER had to pay for any operations or treatment before in my life, apart from the measly £7 standard fee for prescriptions.

it's not free though. You still pay for it in taxes. I did some comparative healthcare costs around Europe last summer, and per MRI the government is paying approximately what France is paying.

Pimbaa said:
People don't go bankrupt from going to the hospital in Canada.

no, but they are still paying for it in the global sense. It's not "free" like some people think. I'm just trying to clarify this to people.
 

Kurtofan

Member
280 is 280 too much

/canada

*high five*

/Canada

lolwut? Why would anyone in Canada spend almost 5k per year on health care?

The only health care I've paid for in Canada is massages and chiropractic care. Both of which are covered at 75% by my work insurance policy though, so even then I only pay a couple of hundred per year.

Also, I thought they also had free health care in Europe?

We do have free healthcare, 280 dollars is what they cost to the state.I don't think doctors in Canada don't get paid.
 

pringles

Member
I'm in the US and had an MRI of my knee about a month ago. total was $4024 before insurance deductions. I think I'm still going to have to pay about $1000 once I get my final bill.
How do americans not go around in constant fear of hurting themselves??

Christ that is expensive.
 

ronito

Member
it's not free though. You still pay for it in taxes. I did some comparative healthcare costs around Europe last summer, and per MRI the government is paying approximately what France is paying.

Ergo the $5,000 noted in the article, which is STILL far less than America's prices.
 

Rich!

Member
it's not free though. You still pay for it in taxes. I did some comparative healthcare costs around Europe last summer, and per MRI the government is paying approximately what France is paying.

No I don't.

We don't earn enough, and she's on tax benefits due to her health. We are pretty much tax exempt, and we still get free healthcare due to being a UK citizen.

christ, the bums on the street still get treated at my local hospital. they don't pay taxes.
 

gcubed

Member
All of the "YAY CANADA!" people are neglecting to mention that, while not having to pay for MRIs or visits to specialists or other such procedures, there's a very real risk of dying of old age while on the waiting list.

Seriously, it can take forever. Forever. No one ever seems to mention that part!

yes, canada may not be the best place, but many other nations don't have those problems
 

squidyj

Member
I can see that if they consider taxes, but out of pocket expenses, even on drugs, would never be anywhere near that. Prescription drugs are hella cheap even without work benefits which cover up to 90% of the prescription cost.



If this was true I wouldn't be living in Canada. We're so much better than the U.S., even without the "free" healthcare.



The U.K. is awesome. They even pay for your taxi fare to the hospital on your way out, lol

I know that the cost isn't high even if you're getting blue cross through your employer or paying for blue cross out of your own pocket. I'm just saying that those are the entirety of costs Canadians face and probably all of them went into determining that number.
 

jmdajr

Member
At my work I pay extra on my insurance to get full coverage. It's the "Plus" version.

Most people just have the basic which covers up to 90% for most procedures.
But really, you could broke on that 10%. It's ridiculous.
 

genjiZERO

Member
No I don't.

We don't earn enough, and she's on tax benefits due to her health. We are pretty much tax exempt, and we still get free healthcare.

Fine. If you personally pay no taxes to the national government in any form then it would be literally free for you. But it's not free for people who are paying taxes.

ronito said:
Ergo the $5,000 noted in the article, which is STILL far less than America's prices.

yeah, I'm not defending prices in the US or anything. Just pointing out that healthcare isn't free in single payer systems like a lot of people think
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
All of the "YAY CANADA!" people are neglecting to mention that, while not having to pay for MRIs or visits to specialists or other such procedures, there's a very real risk of dying of old age while on the waiting list.

Seriously, it can take forever. Forever. No one ever seems to mention that part!

2jzeM.gif
 
All of the "YAY CANADA!" people are neglecting to mention that, while not having to pay for MRIs or visits to specialists or other such procedures, there's a very real risk of dying of old age while on the waiting list.

Seriously, it can take forever. Forever. No one ever seems to mention that part!

If you actually die of old age the MRI must not have been particularly important, no? I would LOVE to die of old age before getting an MRI.

How long is the average wait for urgent MRIs where cancer is suspected, etc?

Edit: My sarcasm detector may be broken. (That's twice this week, I need to bring it in.)

How do americans not go around in constant fear of hurting themselves??

Oh this one's easy to answer. We do.
 

pringles

Member
No I don't.

We don't earn enough, and she's on tax benefits due to her health. We are pretty much tax exempt, and we still get free healthcare due to being a UK citizen.

christ, the bums on the street still get treated at my local hospital. they don't pay taxes.
Don't you realize you're living in a socialist nightmare!?
 

Rich!

Member
Fine. If you personally pay no taxes to the national government in any form then it would be literally free for you. But it's not free for people who are paying taxes.

Yeah, agreed

but still - £30 a month is far more desirable than £1,000 for going to have a broken leg treated.
 

Zoe

Member
No I don't.

We don't earn enough, and she's on tax benefits due to her health. We are pretty much tax exempt, and we still get free healthcare due to being a UK citizen.

christ, the bums on the street still get treated at my local hospital. they don't pay taxes.

You would most likely qualify for Medicare/Medicaid in the US.
 
also, who pays $1,080 for an MRI? I got one about 4 years ago and it was an even $2,000. I can only imagine what it is now.
Actually MRI's are one of the only things that haven't skyrocketed in price like so many other procedures, at least that's the case near me. They have flat fee MRI clinics where you pay $600 up front, get your MRI done, and if your insurance pays for it later, they send you a check for the amount the insurance paid. I had one done about 3 years ago and it was $600, and last time I heard about it on the radio it's still $600.

I think if there were more options like this in the US for patients, instead of having to go to the massive hospital system with all of it's huge administrative costs for every procedure, it could help combat the rising healthcare prices. Certainly there's a lot more that needs to be done, but it's something.

Here's the link to the place I mentioned" http://www.smartchoicemri.com/
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
It's even simpler than that. The other countries named don't have a parasitical middleman that benefits from both the status quo and increased activity and prices - the Insurance industry.


Single payer.
 

genjiZERO

Member
Yeah, agreed

but still - £30 a month is far more desirable than £1,000 for going to have a broken leg treated.

truth

healthcare in the US is a joke. It could be cheaper but the government has to decided to be hands off. It's hard and not be cynical and blame this on special interest and lobbying.

zoe said:
You would most likely qualify for Medicare/Medicaid in the US.

yeah... ~$17,000. 133% of federal poverty line under PPACA. Medicaid sucks really bad though.
 
It is AMAZING to me that anyone on any side of the political aisle thinks that is acceptable. Medical aid in a time of need should be unconditional if we want to consider ourselves an altruistic people.. to let companies profit astronomically in this manner is just insane. Obama's healthcare plan doesn't go far enough... The US is clearly getting stiffed by its own medical insurance and medical industry.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The healthcare market is a perfect example of how its possible to take a market, make it very free, and then end up with something that doesn't actually resemble a free market. Functional free markets are not spontaneously generated, they're made
 
If you actually die of old age the MRI must not have been particularly important, no? I would LOVE to die of old age before getting an MRI.

How long is the average wait for urgent MRIs where cancer is suspected, etc?

Edit: My sarcasm detector may be broken. (That's twice this week, I need to bring it in.)

Here's a quick study I found.

http://www.longwoods.com/content/20537

"Our results document that most MRI facilities in Canada have a substantial wait list problem, with some centres reporting wait times of up to one month for urgent scans and up to several years for non-urgent scans. Despite the magnitude of these wait times and recognition of the problem by staff at the facilities, strategies used to manage wait lists and reduce wait times are diverse, uncoordinated and, judging by the number of patients on the wait lists, largely ineffective. Most facilities employ a categorization scheme for triaging MRI requests, but this is not applied in a rigorous manner. Few sites have documented criteria to guide the triaging decisions. No site had a method of quality assurance to determine whether or not the prioritization was being performed consistently. Thus, it is entirely possible that patients with the same medical indication for an MRI examination, at the same centre, could be placed in different prioritization categories, with very different wait times."
 
I just paid $40 for a nasal allergy spray that will only last me 2-3 weeks..and that's AFTER my prescription insurance. Fuck U.S Healthcare.
 

Zoe

Member
I think if there were more options like this in the US for patients, instead of having to go to the massive hospital system with all of it's huge administrative costs for every procedure, it could help combat the rising healthcare prices. Certainly there's a lot more that needs to be done, but it's something.

Here's the link to the place I mentioned" http://www.smartchoicemri.com/

Part of the problem is many people just aren't educated on alternatives to the ER and where to go for routine care.

I just paid $40 for a nasal allergy spray that will only last me 2-3 weeks..and that's AFTER my prescription insurance. Fuck U.S Healthcare.

Which one? I asked my allergist to switch me to Flonase not too long ago so I could get the generic.
 
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