Support NeoGAF

[LordCanti]

Negative, and they didn't even find what was wrong. A year later and over 50 symptoms I was finally diagnosed. Lyme Disease.....ugh, what a nightmare that was. Grant it both of my legs had gone numb so they were checking for MS.

Lyme disease is a bitch. I'm pretty paranoid about ticks because of it.

I'm currently in the process of diagnostic tests for unexplained pain in the kidney area. So far after a CT scan, ultrasound, and x-ray, my doctor has no idea. The only thing he's got to go on is the pain, dehydration despite plenty of fluid intake, and protein in the urine (which points to kidney problems). Not knowing exactly whats wrong sucks.

If I didn't have insurance, I'm sure the bill would be 10k by now. With the insurance I doubt it's topped $100.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

The healthcare law is mostly about removing the "pre-existing conditions" ability to deny insurance (will increase health insurance costs as it will mean insurance will be required to cover more people with disabilities) and also allows children to be covered under parents insurance for longer which isn't really that terrible. Plus it requires everyone to have insurance.

I'm sorry, but you say this as if these are insignificant changes. More needs to be done, yes, but everyone has to stop pretending like the health care bill is insignificant.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Canada has one of the lowest rates of MRI scanning machines per capita in the developed world, with six MRI scanners per million people, compared to 40.1 in Japan, 14.4 in Switzerland and 26.6 in the United States. Pittsburgh alone has more MRI machines than all of Canada.



http://www.bcliving.ca/health/mri-s...ealth-care-vs-paying-for-a-private-mri-clinic

Six per million? Do they really only have 180 MRI machines in Canada?

 

[JB1981]

That's a problem?

It's a problem when he believes the services were free, yes.

 

[Deified Data]

Haha! Joke's on you fuckers, I don't go to the doctor.

Ugh, oh wait...

 

[McLovin]

Prices here are insane. For the price of a root canal I can fly down to Dominican republic and get everything I need done(cleaning, multiple root canals, get crowns recapped, teeth whitening, fix a chipped tooth) and fly back the next day. They give you a prescription for antibiotics and for few bucks they give you what you need and your on your way.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

How many MRI machines are there in Canada per 100,000 people and how many in the US?

Why does it even matter though? If these other studies say that health care in the USA is not better than other countries and if these things cost a shitton of money, life expectancy is not higher, access to health care is worse etc etc, what does it matter how many fancy machines they have? It doesn't say much at all.

 

[Flatline]

So higher prices because corporations want to make money at the expense of the consumer.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Lyme disease is a bitch. I'm pretty paranoid about ticks because of it.

I'm currently in the process of diagnostic tests for unexplained pain in the kidney area. So far after a CT scan, ultrasound, and x-ray, my doctor has no idea. The only thing he's got to go on is the pain, dehydration despite plenty of fluid intake, and protein in the urine (which points to kidney problems). Not knowing exactly whats wrong sucks.

If I didn't have insurance, I'm sure the bill would be 10k by now. With the insurance I doubt it's topped $100.

Yeah Lyme put me in the ER 7 times; it was hell. From heart problems to nervous system problems. It got so bad I drove somewhere once, and didn't remember driving there. >_< Thank science for antibiotics.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, hopefully you'll find resolution soon!

 

[gcubed]

Why does it even matter though? If these other studies say that health care in the USA is not better than other countries and if these things cost a shitton of money, life expectancy is not higher, access to health care is worse etc etc, what does it matter how many fancy machines they have? It doesn't say much at all.

precisely

In the United States, some evidence suggests that there is a high risk of overuse of CT and MRI examinations. Between 1997 and 2006, the number of scans in the United States have increased dramatically while the occurrence of illnesses have remained constant (Smith-Bindman et al., 2008). Furthermore, to the extent that payment incentives allow doctors to -benefit from exam -referrals, this also increases the likelihood of overuse. Many studies have attempted to assess -tangible medical benefits of the substantial increase in CT and MRI examinations in the United States but found no conclusive evidence -suggesting such benefits

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/...book/health_glance-2009-en&mimeType=text/html

 

[MercuryLS]

I've considered moving to the US a few times then I remember about the broken health care system you guys have and stay put in Canada. I really don't understand how people put up with that shit, the crazy thing is the subset of Americans that defend the current health care system. That's fucked up.

 

[RukusProvider]

It's even simpler than that. The other countries named don't have a parasitical middleman that benefits from both the status quo and increased activity and prices - the Insurance industry.


Single payer.

Exactly. Every player in the game has to make their margin.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

I've considered moving to the US a few times then I remember about the broken health care system you guys have and stay put in Canada. I really don't understand how people put up with that shit, the crazy thing is the subset of Americans that defend the current health care system. That's fucked up.

A lot of people here don't do much thinking besides whatever their political party tells them to think....yeah, it's a problem.

 

[shira]

280 is 280 too much

/canada

I got a $5 meal voucher.

-$5 woop woop

 

[Funky Papa]

A single state in the US has more MRI machines than all of Canada, and we have nearly 5x as many per million people. There's a reason for that, and it isn't simply because we get to charge more for it here.

That's funny. For the last few years doctors in Spain have been raising a stink, claiming that privately managed public hospitals (a surefire way to reduce costs...) are multiplying the number of MRI/CAT scans for fuck all reasons. Basically they claim that other methods are more recommended to diagnose certain patologies, and that super expensive tests are used to detect all kinds physical health malladies that could be diagnosed with a cheap x-ray.

So maybe, maybe, American hospitals use an absurd number of MRI machines because they provide a safe way to inflate health costs at the expense of the insured/taxpayer.

 

[ronito]

MRI machines cost $2-5 million. Good luck paying for them, along with the expertise needed to analyze them, at $100-300 a pop. There's a reason why the waiting lists for MRI's and other expensive imaging/diagnostic tests are much longer outside of the US (like 1-2 days versus 1-2 months for non-emergencies) - because providers can't afford to procure more equipment or hire more physicians due to the artificially low price of compensation for such services set by the government.

A single state in the US has more MRI machines than all of Canada, and we have nearly 5x as many per million people. There's a reason for that, and it isn't simply because we get to charge more for it here.

The superficial and biased analysis re: healthcare in the US on this forum is amusing. This is an incredibly complex, multifaceted issue. Reciting platitudes and acting like a single payer system is a panacea is a joke. That said, I am not a proponent of the extant system, nor of completely free market healthcare, which would be disastrous for a number of reasons.

I worked for a company that makes MRI machines. I had access to see what they were making. It was ridiculous.

And you're partially right. There are COUNTIES in America that have more MRI machines than all of Canada you don't even have to go to a State level most cases.

But here's where I think your deductions are faulty. The reason there are so many is because study after study after study shows the more Doctors there are in an area the more people go to the doctor. The same holds true for MRI machines. Why are there more MRI machines in some counties than all of Canada? Because it's damned profitable that's why.

Agreed that single-payer isn't a panacea, nothing is. However, just because I know vitamins wont keep me alive forever doesn't mean I shouldn't take them.

 

[Like the hat?]

my favorite health industry story

I went to the hospital thinking I was having a heart attack (shortness of breath, pressure in my chest, numbness in my left arm) and they did a few tests (which included two nurses working on each of my arms at the same time trying to draw a blood sample (though to be fair I have weird veins when it comes to that) (they finally got it out of my left hand, but not before trying to draw it out with a syringe and destroying the cells in the sample), plus a CT scan that they had to run twice because they screwed up the first one. In the end, I'm told by the doctor that "it's just stress, have to lower my stress level".

Their help in me lowering my stress level? A bill for just over $5k.

Had no insurance at the time. Took me years to pay it off.

 

[ronito]

my favorite health industry story

I went to the hospital thinking I was having a heart attack (shortness of breath, pressure in my chest, numbness in my left arm) and they did a few tests (which included two nurses working on each of my arms at the same time trying to draw a blood sample (though to be fair I have weird veins when it comes to that) (they finally got it out of my left hand, but not before trying to draw it out with a syringe and destroying the cells in the sample), plus a CT scan that they had to run twice because they screwed up the first one. In the end, I'm told by the doctor that "it's just stress, have to lower my stress level".

Their help in me lowering my stress level? A bill for just over $5k.

Had no insurance at the time. Took me years to pay it off.

Just 5K for that? Man, what hospital did you go to? I mean you had your blood drawn and everything!

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

my favorite health industry story

I went to the hospital thinking I was having a heart attack (shortness of breath, pressure in my chest, numbness in my left arm) and they did a few tests (which included two nurses working on each of my arms at the same time trying to draw a blood sample (though to be fair I have weird veins when it comes to that) (they finally got it out of my left hand, but not before trying to draw it out with a syringe and destroying the cells in the sample), plus a CT scan that they had to run twice because they screwed up the first one. In the end, I'm told by the doctor that "it's just stress, have to lower my stress level".

Their help in me lowering my stress level? A bill for just over $5k.

Had no insurance at the time. Took me years to pay it off.

didn't help your stress level I bet

 

[Kai Dracon]

A lot of people here don't do much thinking besides whatever their political party tells them to think....yeah, it's a problem.

That and people also want to defend their investment.

I listened once to someone argue with his baby boomer mother about Canadian health care.

She mindlessly defended the American system, to the point that she even tried defending what she acknowledged was exploitation by big medicine. How could she defend exploitation itself? Excuse it?

"Because life is just hard. I had a hard life."

Mind you, I knew a bit about the situation. His mother and father had dealt with crushing medical bills that nearly ruined them for much of their adult lives. And they were technically upper middle class, just on the verge of being true upper class. They had suffered for 20 years being raped by the scheme of big medicine.

And so, the last thing they wanted to do was come to the realization that in a sense, it had all been for nothing. Declaring bankruptcy, losing a home, being humiliated, all just to stay alive. All just because big medical wanted to fleece the population for a product they couldn't refuse buying.

So his parents were examples of people who, despite their suffering and history, ironically defended the system rather than allow themselves to become angry at it. They denied that any other system of public health in any nation could be "better" on the whole, or more humane, or fair because that would devalue - in their mind - their own past suffering. It's hard, when you grow up in America and are conditioned from birth to believe you're number one and that your country is the King of Earth, to truly admit to yourself you've been swindled. Some people react by getting very angry, but many react with sheer denial.

In my experience there are a lot of Americans like that relating to health care. Total Stockholm Syndrome, beyond even what a political party may propagandize. They don't want to admit that they've been "wrong" about something so fundamental to life that's caused them such suffering and economic struggle for their entire lives.

 

[Windu]

Just 5K for that? Man, what hospital did you go to? I mean you had your blood drawn and everything!

he had no insurance.

 

[LosDaddie]

I've considered moving to the US a few times then I remember about the broken health care system you guys have and stay put in Canada. I really don't understand how people put up with that shit, the crazy thing is the subset of Americans that defend the current health care system. That's fucked up.

Never underestimate an American's willingness, even eagerness, to vote against their best interes(s)t so long as their favorite media pundit tells them to.

 

[frankie_baby]

my favorite health industry story

I went to the hospital thinking I was having a heart attack (shortness of breath, pressure in my chest, numbness in my left arm) and they did a few tests (which included two nurses working on each of my arms at the same time trying to draw a blood sample (though to be fair I have weird veins when it comes to that) (they finally got it out of my left hand, but not before trying to draw it out with a syringe and destroying the cells in the sample), plus a CT scan that they had to run twice because they screwed up the first one. In the end, I'm told by the doctor that "it's just stress, have to lower my stress level".

Their help in me lowering my stress level? A bill for just over $5k.

Had no insurance at the time. Took me years to pay it off.

should've sued them for loads of unneccessary procedures (isnt suing people americas second favourite thing after stupid healthcare)

 

[alphaNoid]

I had an MRI done a few weeks ago, total cost.

$0. (Kaiser) well.. paid $25 deductible to see the Dr.

USA, I am insured well and always have been. Never been a point in my life I haven't had insurance. The most expensive thing I've had done was a $120,000 reconstructive plastic surgery and I paid a $500 hospital deductible.

 

[KillGore]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

 

[UnluckyKate]

French here. I pay student medicare. So basically, nothing.

Also carrying long term infection, giving me special status : 100% free medicare for the related disease. Yes. FREE medicare. Not pay then get refund. Nothing to pay.

Taxi to hospital every 3 month ? They would pay for me if I wasn't taking the subway. MRI is 280$ ? I never payed for those.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't get it those people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought.

Yes*, but the bright side is that nobody's life gets crushed by medical bills. Socialised systems are considerably cheaper than private insurance since they are not run for profit.




*after many years of self employment I know a couple of things about awful taxes. I would still take them over private insurance.

 

[perryfarrell]

It's even simpler than that. The other countries named don't have a parasitical middleman that benefits from both the status quo and increased activity and prices - the Insurance industry.

It's not that simple (as explained in the article).

Profit margins in the insurance industry hover around 2% while some medical device and drug manufacturers have 20% margins. Insurers just pay whatever hospitals charge, and increase premiums accordingly.

Part of the problem is supply-driven demand. For instance, research shows that if medical supply goes up (e.g. by having more doctors per square mile), medical spending goes up as well. Doctors are more willing to perform unnecessary procedures when there's more medical 'supply'--because otherwise these doctors would go out of business. (If your colleague does the procedure, and you don't, you're missing out on income.)

Fundamentally, medical care is UNLIKE other products in that 'consumers' don't know what they need and have to rely on expert judgment, and in that it may be a life-or-death matter so that they're willing to pay any price for what they need.

That means that--in an unregulated system--employers can take whatever cut out of paychecks to pay for insurance, which means that insurers will pay whatever it takes for medical care, which means that hospitals and medical drug & device manufacturers can charge whatever they want.

 

[alphaNoid]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

You are mostly correct, but the devil is in the details. With anything there are always exceptions and in some countries it isn't as high as you might think. Another variable people overlook is their silly country doesn't have the population of 300+ million to care for.

 

[KillGore]

Yes, but the bright side is that nobody's life gets crushed by medical bills.

But isn't the same in the end anyways? They pay higher taxes than americans do every year for their life and americans have to pay medical bills. The only downside being that even homeless people can get free healthcare in those places (am I right?) while they don't in the US.

 

[dojokun]

I work for an MRI network and we are paying our providers anywhere from $230 to $800 for an MRI, and the insurance companies are paying us anywhere from $275 to $1200 for an MRI. The actual price depends on where it's performed (supply vs demand). This is why I cringe when I see people say an MRI costs thousands of dollars because of cost of machine and paying professionals. It costs what it costs because of supply vs demand, just like anything else in a for-profit business.

 

[Funky Papa]

But isn't the same in the end anyways? They pay higher taxes than americans do every year for their life and americans have to pay medical bills. The only downside being that even homeless people can get free healthcare in those places (am I right?) while they don't in the US.

I expanded my post. Here's the crux of the issue:

Socialised systems are considerably cheaper than private insurance since they are not run for profit.

This is why an European (or a Canadian, or an Australian, or a Japanese) is actually paying less money than an American citizen for a first world level of healthcare.

 

[LosDaddie]

That and people also want to defend their investment.

I listened once to someone argue with his baby boomer mother about Canadian health care.

She mindlessly defended the American system, to the point that she even tried defending what she acknowledged was exploitation by big medicine. How could she defend exploitation itself? Excuse it?

"Because life is just hard. I had a hard life."

Mind you, I knew a bit about the situation. His mother and father had dealt with crushing medical bills that nearly ruined them for much of their adult lives. And they were technically upper middle class, just on the verge of being true upper class. They had suffered for 20 years being raped by the scheme of big medicine.

And so, the last thing they wanted to do was come to the realization that in a sense, it had all been for nothing. Declaring bankruptcy, losing a home, being humiliated, all just to stay alive. All just because big medical wanted to fleece the population for a product they couldn't refuse buying.

So his parents were examples of people who, despite their suffering and history, ironically defended the system rather than allow themselves to become angry at it. They denied that any other system of public health in any nation could be "better" on the whole, or more humane, or fair because that would devalue - in their mind - their own past suffering. It's hard, when you grow up in America and are conditioned from birth to believe you're number one and that your country is the King of Earth, to truly admit to yourself you've been swindled. Some people react by getting very angry, but many react with sheer denial.

In my experience there are a lot of Americans like that relating to health care. Total Stockholm Syndrome, beyond even what a political party may propagandize. They don't want to admit that they've been "wrong" about something so fundamental to life that's caused them such suffering and economic struggle for their entire lives.

Sounds like one of my former co-workers.

She is a rabid Tea Party supporter. Went to rallys, townhall meetings...all that jazz. She's the type of conservative who CONSTANTLY forwards those hard right-wing chain emails, and made snide comments all the time about Dems and the HCR bill. Like I said, the typical TP conservative. Totally against HCR.

Then her unemployed, adult daughter gets cancer, and my former co-worker runs as fast as she towards whatever govt healthcare they can get for the daughter. And yet before I left for my new job, she was still crying about how HCR needs to get repealed, and Obama out of office.

 

[RDreamer]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

Uh... no, it's not the same ol' shit in the end. In fact that's what this is showing. Sure you're paying in separate ways and you'd like to think that'd be equal in the end, but it isn't. Because of the pressure to put prices downward that other countries can exert you end up paying A LOT more here than elsewhere.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

Canada: USA w/ Healthcare

/Canada

I always thought Canadians didn't like being compared to the US.

 

[ronito]

he had no insurance.

See, the joke was that I was being flippant about LikeTheHat getting a good deal because he went to the hospital and it only cost him $5k. Thereby implying that such treatment at other hospitals would not only be higher but considerably so.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I had one a few years ago. I think it was under 1,500$ with insurance.

 

[Kurtofan]

French here. I pay student medicare. So basically, nothing.

Also carrying long term infection, giving me special status : 100% free medicare for the related disease. Yes. FREE medicare. Not pay then get refund. Nothing to pay.

Taxi to hospital every 3 month ? They would pay for me if I wasn't taking the subway. MRI is 280$ ? I never payed for those.

Long term disease for me as well, so 100% coverage of my treatment every two months.And it's pretty costly too, I feel glad to live in France for this.

I didn't have to pay for the hospitalization as well.

 

[empty vessel]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

No. US health care providers earn roughly twice as much per individual than do their European counterparts. There is literally more money per capita being poured into health care in the US than in Europe.

Yes, Europeans (by and large) pay for their health care through taxes. No, they do not pay as much. They pay about half what Americans pay for the same health care results.

 

[mavs]

I don't get the people laughing at US' healthcare, don't their countries charge way higher taxes than the US does to the americans? I'm probably misinformed but that's what I always thought. Basically being the same shit in the end?

No. The figures are total spending. Americans spend about 3/4 of what other countries spend on healthcare through the tax system, AND the same amount AGAIN in private spending. So the outcomes in the US are horrible no matter what stream of money you look at.

 

[KillGore]

Uh... no, it's not the same ol' shit in the end. In fact that's what this is showing. Sure you're paying in separate ways and you'd like to think that'd be equal in the end, but it isn't. Because of the pressure to put prices downward that other countries can exert you end up paying A LOT more here than elsewhere.

Not that I'm doubting you (seriously, I'm not) but is there data showing how much (let's say) Canadians spend on tax dollars compared to Americans and how much Americans spend on healthcare plus what they have to pay after the healthcare coverage? Again, I'm not trying to argue anything anymore, just wondering the difference.

Edit: I wasn't aware americans had it that rough. If it's so bad, then why is this still happening over there? Because of the profit?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I believe they're only $100 in Japan. They're so cheap simply because the government refuses to pay more for them/.
.

This is the way to go about it in my opinion.
Or even going the full way and while allowing private insurers, forcing them to become non-profit.

 

[empty vessel]

Not that I'm doubting you (seriously, I'm not) but is there data showing how much (let's say) Canadians spend on tax dollars compared to Americans and how much Americans spend on healthcare plus what they have to pay after the healthcare coverage? Again, I'm not trying to argue anything anymore, just wondering the difference.

Yes. Canadians, in aggregate, spend about half per capita than Americans, in aggregate, spend on health care. This pattern of Americans paying double is replicated in every other industrialized country.

The aggregate costs of their health care industry is about half. Necessarily, then, they pay less in taxes to pay for that than Americans spend privately on health care.

 

[-viper-]

Yes, a good chunk of our taxes is funding healthcare in the UK.

However, taxes in the UK aren't significantly higher than US taxes. In terms of percentage, if I remember correctly, taxes across the Western world are virtually identical.

The NHS truly is the gold standard for healthcare.

I'd rather much of my taxes go to good use (i.e. saving lives) and allowing me to receive treatment for free.

 

[genjiZERO]

I don't know if government involvement would necessarily make it cheaper. Just look at the rise of college tuitions. Government loans are easy to get and universities know this. That plus other factors doesn't help keep costs down. I don't know how to fix it but I don't think just having government involvement is the solution.

It's a different scenario. Healthcare is cheaper in every other first world country because those countries negotiate for prices and have less overhead. Student loans/rises in college are out of control (170k personally!) because they are so easy to come by and the system has been rigged. The government in that situation isn't negotiating with universities for prices. The more accurate analogy would be to say that the government would subsidise individual healthcare, but not control costs by regulating the industry. See the difference?

If government involvement isn't the answer then I don't know what is. The US government already pays more than twice as much per person than the second most expensive country and has an "open market" just for Medicare/Medicaid. That doesn't even mean the cost of healthcare for those who are forced to purchase it on the market. No other country has "open markets". They have substantially more government regulation, and healthcare is profoundly less expensive. That seems like clear evidence that when it comes to healthcare government intervention does work well.

Did they give you gold bars when you got out of the machine?

I hope he got a fully functioning cyberbrain.... damn that's ridiculous.

 

[BrettHD]

So as someone who doesn't follow American politics what's the problem with government healthcare (ObamaCare)? The impression I get is that people don't want it because it's unAmerican...but is there something inherently flawed with it or is it just politicians being politicians.

I'm aware that any answer is probably more complex or long than can be summed up in a quick and easy post...

The American Way is ALWAYS the best way - even when there are mountains of evidence in plain view indicating that it isnt.

 

[jorma]

Yes, a good chunk of our taxes is funding healthcare in the UK.

However, taxes in the UK aren't significantly higher than US taxes. In terms of percentage, if I remember correctly, taxes across the Western world are virtually identical.

The NHS truly is the gold standard for healthcare.

I'd rather much of my taxes go to good use (i.e. saving lives) and allowing me to receive treatment for free.

Income taxes are about the same, except for the top brackets. But we have more extra taxes like VAT.

 

[mavs]

Not that I'm doubting you (seriously, I'm not) but is there data showing how much (let's say) Canadians spend on tax dollars compared to Americans and how much Americans spend on healthcare plus what they have to pay after the healthcare coverage? Again, I'm not trying to argue anything anymore, just wondering the difference.

Edit: I wasn't aware americans had it that rough. If it's so bad, then why is this still happening over there? Because of the profit?

I tried to find a different chart, but this is for 2009:

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Keep voting republican guys.

 

[ronito]

You are mostly correct, but the devil is in the details. With anything there are always exceptions and in some countries it isn't as high as you might think. Another variable people overlook is their silly country doesn't have the population of 300+ million to care for.

This "B..b..but we have 300 MILLION peoples!" argument is as disingenuous as the story as the friend passing up the promotion so they wouldn't get taxed higher. And it holds about as much water.

The thing that makes it so laughable is that they're like "Hey! We can't do that we have 300 million people! That's TENS OF MILLIONS more than these other countries!"

But then when you say, "But then wouldn't that then mean that we have TENS OF MILLIONS more people to pay into the system?"

The response is always, "Uh....but it doesn't work that way......POOR PEOPLE!!"